Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[Banner Without Brothers]

33 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I know about Jerry Lewis from Matt  Judge's new show. That was in the 50's, that doesn't count for "todays time", not at all, and he got shit for that in both Europe and America. And the first article you linked, kind of proves my point, they raised their age of consent to 16, don't really know if that classifies as a child in todays time, as in the US, that's the age where you can get your learners permit, here, 16year olds are still classified as minors,yet old enough to have sex, but not old enough for marriage. I don't know how Spain classifies children from adults, but raising ages of consent and ages of legal marriages, proves my point. But thats too much real world stuff, on a forum and in a thread about ASOIAF.

I do count 1950's as modern, I mean in the grand scheme of things it's not long ago, there were also plenty of other famous people in the 50's and 60's who were sleeping with teenagers including Elvis.

The article is from 2013 so it's only 4 years ago. For me it's shocking that the age of consent could be as low as 13 in the 21st century, the age that Sansa is in the chapter we're discussing. It also mentions the age of consent in several other european countries is still only 14!  Japan is also still 13. Nigeria is 11 the Philipines is 12!

Like I said that is shocking to anyone who lives in a society where the age is higher and especially the US where the age is much higher. Perhaps not as shocking to people who live there. But yeah it does unfortunately still happen in modern society even in countries like Japan and Spain who most of us would consider as advanced, first world or whatever term you prefer.

[TheSeason]

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

@Sigella Like whom? Cite some examples of children marrying grown men in todays time, and where is that accepted?

I know about Jerry Lewis from Matt  Judge's new show. That was in the 50's, that doesn't count for "todays time", not at all, and he got shit for that in both Europe and America. And the first article you linked, kind of proves my point, they raised their age of consent to 16, don't really know if that classifies as a child in todays time, as in the US, that's the age where you can get your learners permit, here, 16year olds are still classified as minors,yet old enough to have sex, but not old enough for marriage. I don't know how Spain classifies children from adults, but raising ages of consent and ages of legal marriages, proves my point. But thats too much real world stuff, on a forum and in a thread about ASOIAF.

Child Brides are a very real phenomenon--a dangerous and disgusting, inhuman practice that continues to this day, along with other methods of exploiting women and children (like sexual trafficking or sexual slavery--just because a child isn't "married" to her sexual abuser does not mean she shouldn't be counted as party to these vile traditions and abuses, as some of them are much more "informally" arranged "unions."). 

You can "meet" some child brides here, including pictures of them at their "weddings" or with their newborn babies. 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/photos/pregnant-child-brides-15157730/image-15157834 

On YouTube you can see videos of child brides, some of them at their "weddings."

You can learn more about child brides at some of these other sites, too: 

(Girls Not Brides) https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/about-child-marriage/

Child marriage is any formal marriage or informal union where one or both of the parties are under 18 years of age.
 
Each year, 15 million girls are married before the age of 18.
That is 28 girls every minute.
1 Every 2 seconds. 

From Girls Not Brides, linked above.

(National Geographic) https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130313-child-brides-marriage-women-sinclair-photography/

It's an interview with Stephanie Sinclair, who photographed child brides. A quote from the above link: 

"Whenever I saw him, I hid. I hated to see him," recalls Tahani, pictured here, of the early days of her marriage to Majed, when she was 6 and he was 25. The couple live in Yemen.

Stephanie Sinclair, VII/National Geographic (Photographer)

How many children and teenage girls are ready for marriage? Yet the practice is shockingly prevalent: One out of nine girls in developing countries will be married by age 15, according to the United Nations. An estimated 14.2 million girls a year will become child brides by 2020 if nothing changes.

To take another peek into "the secret world of child brides," check out Sinclair's work, hosted on NatGeo here: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/child-brides/sinclair-photography

You can also read an article about an eight-year-old Yemeni child bride (identified only as Rawan, of Hardh, Yemen, a poverty-stricken rural area* that borders Saudi Arabia) who died from the trauma of her consummation here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415871/Yemeni-child-bride-8-dies-internal-injuries-night-forced-marriage-groom-40.html

*Poverty, isolation, ancient traditions and inequalities in gender roles often play a huge part in stripping children of their human rights and human dignity, stealing their innocence, and forcing them into marriage.

There's a lot of information about this inhuman practice online if you wish to google it ("child brides" will turn up sufficient evidence) as well as plenty of books about the practice, if you'd like to visit your local library. There are plenty of people in this world who are getting away with marrying children or forcing children to marry (whether to adults--most likely--or to other children), as well as trafficking them in other inhuman ways. These children have suffered enough without us simply denying their experience. 

There are also plenty of more "modern" or "western(ized)" places in the world where having sexual contact with or marrying minors is culturally inappropriate yet still technically legal (a bizarre set of contradictory criteria that comes of updating worldviews far more often than we update our laws), which is what I think @Banner Without Brothers was trying to point out. There are places in the world where a sixteen-year-old girl is considered unfit to drink alcohol but (legally) suitable to marry. There's plenty wrong with that as well. 

[Tygett Lannister]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Oh my. Well first of all she has had her period so her sexual organs are fully developed. That isn't really the point though. The point is she is a child & he is a grown man. She is attractive but most grown men would look at a pretty little girl & think "oh what a pretty little girl" not get a boner. I would agree that a pedophile shouldn't be arrested as long as they don't act on their urges but judged? I'm not sure. If they can't help it they can't & for that I would feel slightly remorseful judging them. However I have a little girl & if I know a grown man has a sexual preference for little girls I'm going to make certain he does not spend any time in her presence. If that's judging him then it is & I'm ok with it. I do agree Tyrion prefers adult women but he is a sexual deviant. I really sometimes wonder about GRRM having written so many sexual taboos (incest, rape, pedophilia etc) is it for the shock value? If so I think he over did it a little. There is so much of it, it really isn't shocking anymore & the story could be told just as well with less of these incidences. 

 

Spoiler

No, if you have your period that doesn't means your sex organs are fully developed, far from it. Not sure if you ever had any sex education but woman can safely have sex at about age of 17 before that penetration can cause injuries and I am not a woman to know that. 

A man with strong libido will get a bonner when he sees female organs even if 13 years old ones he will know it is wrong and will ask her to cover herself you can have bonner and be disgusted at the same time you dont control your bonner animal inside you does.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

  Reveal hidden contents

No, if you have your period that doesn't means your sex organs are fully developed, far from it. Not sure if you ever had any sex education but woman can safely have sex at about age of 17 before that penetration can cause injuries and I am not a woman to know that. 

A man with strong libido will get a bonner when he sees female organs even if 13 years old ones he will know it is wrong and will ask her to cover herself you can have bonner and be disgusted at the same time you dont control your bonner animal inside you does.

 

Spoiler

What exactly do you mean by sexual organs? I am a woman & have had plenty of sex education. A 14 - 15 year old girl & younger depending on her body can have sex & deliver a baby with virtually no issues. The problem arises with teen pregnancy because teens are less likely to seek prenatal care, more likely to come in contact with an STD, etc. Not to say every teen girl would have sex & deliver with no issues but there is nothing in their age stopping that from happening. 

I'm not a man so I won't speak on the boners but it grosses me out. 

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

@Tygett Lannister  You're weird, bruh. 

 

@Sigella Like whom? Cite some examples of children marrying grown men in todays time, and where is that accepted? I'm solely speaking in terms of the world setting ASOIAF is based on, in that Tyrion's marriage with Sansa would largely be accepted. Hence I said the marriage, and nothing about consummation, as that's another subject entirely.

 

Tyrion says, while on his ride to the castle with Varys after leaving Shae, that his father forced him to lay with Tysha, after his own men did. He says he didn't want to do it but that his "cock betrayed him" and he got aroused and did the "deed". Like I said Tyrion has his good and bad tendencies and moments, like everyone else, his situation isn't different from any of the other character in GRRM'S created world. I'm not even touching on real life and what goes on today other than what I said in the other post, because we're talking about a fictional universe, personally I don't even see what place real world stigma's, culture, etc. has in this discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

Many countries across the world sadly.

Tyrion only ever thinks of sexual things, speaks of sexual things or acts on sexual things. And I think its to point out how he has warped sexual things up so much because its the only physical affection available to him.

But its still quite satisfying to criticise him. Maybe for the exact same reason? I mean it is real hard to like someone after he masturbated in his chamberpot just few times more than anyone else ever? 

My argument was meant to mean: kids are the same in Planetos as Earth and therefore they wouldn't react differently to  what took place in the bedchamber and therefore the acts remain universal and that most people everywhere would instinctively judge it wrong. Most would even realise it way earlier than Tyrion maybe?

[A Ghost of Someone]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

He was aroused, undressed and showed his aroused cock to her. Like, really! If a 27-something guy did that in a girl's bedroom, he'd be arrested for child molestation. "The I didn't penetrate her," wouldn't cut it.

As for historical marriages at really young ages: In Europe the 13 years olds were wed, but it usually wasn't consummated until the girl would be about 16-17, often proven by the fact that the girl would have her first child at 17 or 18, because they knew that a girl as young as that would have an even lower survival rate. And this still would have been an exceptional high profile marriage (between princes and princesses and such). In general, at least for Western and Northern Europe middle class and non high profile nobility would have people wed at an older age, and the age gap was not that large. With commoners the average marriage age for women in that area was early 20s and the men mid to late 20s, with both having independent income. It doesn't mean that there weren't big age gaps and quite young girls wed to older men amongst these classes, but it wasn't "common" or the "norm".

The age gap was larger in Italy and that's where girls tended to be married at young ages. This had to do with dowry customs. The older the daughter became, the more expensive it became. But the records are not fully conclusive, since there is suggestive evidence that families "lied" about their daughter's age to keep the dowry price lower and affordable - that is several of these young girls listed as 14 might actually have been 16. 

Finally as for "better man than most": well, we still have to see any other example of mature men bedding 13 year old brides regularly. Even Tyrion's uncle suggests it would be perfectly acceptable and perhaps even preferable for Tyrion to not bed Sansa beyond the first consummation until she has actually grown into a woman. And the reason that Tywin and his brother expect Tyrion to consummate it is not because it's normal to bed a barely 13-year old, but because she's a hostage and been forced to marry Tyrion, the sister of a king who's rebelling and thus far "winning" his rebellion... so that King Robb Stark couldn't denounce the marriage. 

Being "better than Tywin" doesn't make Tyrion a good person, at all.

And to add to that, his thoughts throughout that horrible marriage was that he was cursing her in his mind all the time. She did no kneel to him, submit  or want him and it was pissing him off. He could bide his time, she was captured and surrounded by Lannister goons, she had no escape (so he thought). It was all about him, his pride, his desires. He also did not have to marry her, there was Lancel if I recall. He could have let her marry a normal sized and looking Lannister, nothing against dwarfs but Tyrion is not Peter Dinklage, the show dared not make him look like the Tyrion of GRRM, we would vomit and be repulsed, just like GRRM envisions Sansa does. Tyrion wanted her birthright, Winterfell, it is always about him.

The Book Imp seems to suffer from some sort of anxiety as well reg Sansa. Tyrion is used to buying whores/sex slaves who are paid to be submissive, call him "My Giant of Lannister" type things. Sansa was an innocent and that is not the type of person he was used to bedding/raping. He was messed up and it only has gone down hill further to where he is in the books where last left off in 2011. Pretty Dark.

[sweetsunray]

21 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

But Sansa is attractive and her sex organs are partially developed so I wouldn't judge him for getting hard, for what it matters I wouldn't judge people for any sexual preferences (example: pedophilia) as long as they don't hurt others with it. He pulled the cock out because he was drunk probably, which of course doesn't makes it okay. But I think Tyrion prefers adult women.

I'm not judging him for getting a hard one. Even men who were raped got hard. But a man in his late twenties fully exposing himself to a 13 year old is wrong. I don't give a shit about whether he was drunk. He raped the Selhorys slave while drunk, and the Lyseni bedslave at Illyrio's also when drunk. Tyrion uses wine as an "excuse" for himself to do the things he does, similarly as Cersei points out to us that Robert used wine to say and do things he could say the next morning he had forgotten about.

I agree that he prefers adult women, but "innocense" turns him on. Tysha was after all 13 too. GRRM made a point of it to write that chapter from Sansa's POV. Even if you are in love with a guy, a young woman's first sight of a penis in erection for her can vary from scary to weird. It's a huge startling step in sexual experience for a young girl, whether she's 13 or 16, even if she saw her father and brothers naked in the shower or bath, or saw a penis in erection on pictures, and likes the guy. Let alone the idea that this man expects her to either touch it or lie down and penetrate her.

Tyrion deserved to be smacked on the head for that.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

And to add to that, his thoughts throughout that horrible marriage was that he was cursing her in his mind all the time.

Tyrion thinks completely like some egocentric child in that marriage. It's all about his ego. And if he extends empathy to Sansa it comes with huge strings attached.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

15 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I do count 1950's as modern, I mean in the grand scheme of things it's not long ago, there were also plenty of other famous people in the 50's and 60's who were sleeping with teenagers including Elvis.

The article is from 2013 so it's only 4 years ago. For me it's shocking that the age of consent could be as low as 13 in the 21st century, the age that Sansa is in the chapter we're discussing. It also mentions the age of consent in several other european countries is still only 14!  Japan is also still 13. Nigeria is 11 the Philipines is 12!

Like I said that is shocking to anyone who lives in a society where the age is higher and especially the US where the age is much higher. Perhaps not as shocking to people who live there. But yeah it does unfortunately still happen in modern society even in countries like Japan and Spain who most of us would consider as advanced, first world or whatever term you prefer.

The 1950's aren't classified as "modern", not in any case is 50 years ago, "modern", decades have passed from the 50's to now, things accepted then, aren't largely accepted now. And you're saying other famous people, while not mentioning the problems these people went through for their questionable marriage and bedroom practices. Roman Polanski still isn't allowed in the States because he'll undoubtedly face prison time, then and now, Elvis too got crap for his engagement with Priscella Presley, and I don't believe they were officially married until she came of age to, despite dating her since she was a child. And I wasn't referring to countries like Nigeria and Afghanistan, or most muslim populated countries, as I know little about them, yet am still very aware that countries with political systems based around religion would have fucked up rules in regards to child and human rights. I didn't think that had to be necessarily mentioned though, my mistake. I was largely referring to North America and Europe, as I'd presume that's where much of this forum would be from. But again all this in the grand scheme of things has little to do with the fictional world setting of ASOIAF. And my point was and still is, in todays world, he'd be a child molester. In a medieval, feudal society? Probably not.

[the trees have eyes]

On 24/10/2017 at 5:53 PM, Sigella said:

My perception was actually the opposite, didn't read the books until after The Red Wedding was on the show and I decided that I certainly wouldn't want something like that sprung on me ever again  I liked him until I started reading the books.

Also on my first read his comments toward Catelyn on the way to the Vale kind of slipped by me. But then I started wondering what kind of a creep decides not to rape a child BUT ONLY AFTER after he makes her undress and exposing himself? I mean it had been worse if he had, but what he did is far from ok. And he has no guilt for any of it, rather the opposite, he thinks he's been good and just.

And then we learn that he participated in gang-rape, he murder Shae and rape slaves and voila he lost me.

Like he says such offensive hurtful things all the time and he never regrets it one bit. Its nothing to him that he slut-shamed Catelyn in an extremely graphic way in front of her people, he never thinks about it once.

My mental image of him have changed from Peter Dinklage to the Tales of the Crypt-skeleton dressed up like a doll with a ugly wig on.

Was the same with Varys, liked him on TV but on page he creeps me out bad.

 

I'm not at the point where I blame Tyrion for greeting Cat or being to blame for the twincest though. He has enough on his plate as is.

I see.  If it's all about how he relates to women sexually then it may be pretty pointless to try and argue in his favour.  I've said how he relates to women is a can of worms and I'm not sure it's wise to say anything generally sympathetic to him at all as it's bound to be met by howls of outrage, however minor or mild the comnnets.  I may try anyway but some general comments first.

1) Ah, "The Show".  If you picked up the novels with preconceptions or expectations about particular characters and they failed to meet those then your reaction may be slightly skewed by diappointment or disapproval.  I don't watch The Show and referencing it is forbidden on the forums but if you expected a more, well I guess dignified or charismatic character you may react agasint the real Tyrion more strongly than otherwise.  Or you may well judge him exactly the same way for the same reasons but for most of us expectations failing to be met provokes a negative reaction.

2) Your reasons are all valid and touching no our earlier conversation about faulting all of a character's actions being a barometer of how much someone likes or dislikes a character, you're sticking to the actions you dislike rather than finding reasons to dislike neutral or innocuous actions.  So bravo!  

3) I know asking a question about whether you always disliked a character or changed your mind over time due to specific events invites focus on the dislike or the reasons behind the dislike but it also leaves an invitation to focus on times where you may have liked him (somewhat, in some small way) or on actions which may offset your generally negative opinion.  The absence of any of that in your comments - and I've thrown Allar Deem's name in the hat a few times without any response from Tyrion's detractors; I also quoted the Sansa POV when Tyrion first arrived at KL - does make me wonder if you are selecting the facts to fit your narrative and ignoring inconvenient facts rather than including all the facts but giving more weight to those that seem more important to you.  The first approach isn't balanced, the second is.  I hope you're leaning towards the second

Somewhat unwisely, I'll speak up for him with regards to some of your comments!

1) His comments to Cat on the way to the Vale.  The context is really important here.  Tyrion has been taken prisoner by Cat and accused publicly of the attempted murder of her son and of her wounding in the attempt.  He's been bound and blindfolded and ridden up the High Road and he's been told that it's on Littlefinger's word that he's been arrested.  Littlefinger

How best to undermine Cat's confidence in this trusted source who has falsely implicated him in this plot?  Simple.  Throw in her face his boasting at Court about taking her and Lysa's virginity.  This shows i) that LF is a liar as no one knows better than Cat when and with whom she lost her virginity and ii) that he is not her friend at all as who would boast and lie about that, ruining her reputation at Court of all places? 

If she can't trust LF's word then perhaps she should reconsider Tyrion's guilt or even release him?  Also, it seems to me that the one doing the slut-shaming all along has been LF (and slut-shaming her sister too, jeez, what a guy!).  Tyrion doesn't say this to her because he's an oversexed pervy little dwarf, he says it to undermine her belief in his guilt.  It's very calculated.  He also does it to undermine her position in front of her guards and the mercenaries: if she is not as in control and untouchable perhaps he can use that to his advantage.  And of course he does - he lures Bronn into helping him.  Which is just as well as Bronn saves his life at The Eyrie.

2) The wedding night.  Ugh.  There's no way to read this with a 21st century western liberal perspective and not fault him.  But are we able to look past our own expectations and look at it from the expectations of the society he is living in?  If you can't or don't accept the vaildity of that approach then there's nothing to be said.  I would rather recognise that the culture considers Sansa old enough to be married.  Is it cruel to marry her to an enemy, a much older man, yes, but marraiges are political alliances not love matches.  If you take our perspective that marriages should be love matches you can't really accept most of the marriages in story as they are arranged poiltical gambits not love matches. 

As for arranged marriages and marrying older men: when Arinane's rebellion fails her friends suffer the consequences.  Spotted Sylva of House Santager (a prominent noble House no less) is married off to Lord Eldon Estermont as punishment.  Lord Eldon is around seventy.  Seems Doran is on the same page as Tywin here.

As to the actual bedchamber scene, surely the pertinent part is that Tyrion does not force Sansa into having sex.  The scene ends with him promising not to touch her until or unless she wants him to.  Are we really faulting him for that?  Everyone expects him to consummate the marriage.  No one considers her a child the way we do.  The only reason she is not stripped naked by the wedding guests as part of the traditional bedding ceremony is that Tyrion is terrified of having his deformity revealed in his nakedness.  We don't have bedding ceremonies and I don't know where GRRM got the idea from but it's part of the culture and society that he has drawn whether we like it or not.  So is the idea that she is old enoughto be married and as a ward of the crown she has no more say in her marriage than Spotted Sylva.  I keep hearing Kevan being mentioned as recognising she is too young for sex.  Does he though?  He tells Tyrion two things: 1) that the marriage must be consummated and 2) he would be within his rights not to sleep with her for several years after that if he so wished.  Sounds like he's telling him he should sleep with her as much as he likes but whichever way you slice it he has to sleep with her to consummate the marriage.  After that he can attend to or ignore his duties in the bedchamber as he pleases.  He sure isn't saying "she's too young, you must only sleep with her once for now and then leave her for several years to grow up".  We might want him to say that or to mean that but he doesn't.  He's part of Westerosi culture and society not ours.

And I'll leave the final word to Sansa.  After all I think she ought to have some say with regards to Tyrion's character and sexual behaviour:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

As Sansa stepped back, Lady Lysa caught her wrist. "Now tell me," she said sharply. "Are you with child? The truth now, I will know if you lie."

"No," she said, startled by the question.

"You are a woman flowered, are you not?"

"Yes." Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie. "Tyrion didn't . . . he never . . ." She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. "I am still a maid."

"Was the dwarf incapable?"

"No. He was only . . . he was . . ." Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so. "He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so."

Hmmmmm.  He was kind to her.  Go figure.  If you can only see their interaction through a 21st century lens then she is as wrong as he is to make this judgment.  I would rather let the characters speak for themselves and try and assess them in the story context.  I've thought that since the first Chapter when Ned took seven? / six? year old Bran to watch an execution.  We don't approve of that but in the society we are reading about it's both justice and part of Bran's education in preapring to be a bannerman or deputy to Robb some day.  No point raliing agasint Ned's actions and values being different to our own, we just have to accept they are what they are or fault Ned like we fault Tyrion for sleeping with a 13 year old, er, I mean not sleeping with a 13 year old but you get my point.

[Banner Without Brothers]

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

The 1950's aren't classified as "modern", not in any case is 50 years ago, "modern", decades have passed from the 50's to now, things accepted then, aren't largely accepted now. And you're saying other famous people, while not mentioning the problems these people went through for their questionable marriage and bedroom practices. Roman Polanski still isn't allowed in the States because he'll undoubtedly face prison time, then and now, Elvis too got crap for his engagement with Priscella Presley, and I don't believe they were officially married until she came of age to, despite dating her since she was a child. And I wasn't referring to countries like Nigeria and Afghanistan, or most muslim populated countries, as I know little about them, yet am still very aware that countries with political systems based around religion would have fucked up rules in regards to child and human rights. I didn't think that had to be necessarily mentioned though, my mistake. I was largely referring to North America and Europe, as I'd presume that's where much of this forum would be from. But again all this in the grand scheme of things has little to do with the fictional world setting of ASOIAF. And my point was and still is, in todays world, he'd be a child molester. In a medieval, feudal society? Probably not.

What is and isn't "classified" as modern is a matter of subjective opinion. In the grand scheme of history it's the blink of an eye. It's the decade my parents were born in. I have friends who can remember the 50's. 

Weird you bring up "Muslim" countries. The article I originally quoted stated the highest age of consent in Europe is in Turkey a Muslim nation. Whereas the lowest now 14, are places in Northern Europe. Five years ago Tyrion wouldn't have been legally considered a child molester in Spain.The USA has one of the highest age of consent laws in the world. AFIAK only Bahrain at 21 is higher. In my experience of talking with Americans this leads to a social taboo about under 18. Whereas in my country it would be 16 and in Germany 14. So I agree it is a matter of subjective opinion based on the societal standards.

Tyrion complains that she's too young by Westerosi standards and I believe asks for the marriage to be postponed a few years. While Tywin argues essentially that 'might makes right' which is the Lannister ethos. Tyrion is then angry at Sansa for embarrassing him. His 'boner' is probably to do with him wanting to get revenge on her for making him feel small both literally and figuratively. She's taken his power away by embarrassing him and Tyrion sees his power linked to sex. As is a recurring theme with so many characters. 

You asked for real world examples which I provided Spain a few years ago before the books were published it would be legal. Germany Netherlands etc etc it would almost be legal. Japan, Nigeria and the Philippines would also be legal.

(Nigeria is about 50/40% majority muslim, the 40% is Christian. Philippines is 86% Christian)

[A Ghost of Someone]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tyrion thinks completely like some egocentric child in that marriage. It's all about his ego. And if he extends empathy to Sansa it comes with huge strings attached.

Yep.

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

And to add to that, his thoughts throughout that horrible marriage was that he was cursing her in his mind all the time. She did no kneel to him, submit  or want him and it was pissing him off. He could bide his time, she was captured and surrounded by Lannister goons, she had no escape (so he thought). It was all about him, his pride, his desires. He also did not have to marry her, there was Lancel if I recall. He could have let her marry a normal sized and looking Lannister, nothing against dwarfs but Tyrion is not Peter Dinklage, the show dared not make him look like the Tyrion of GRRM, we would vomit and be repulsed, just like GRRM envisions Sansa does. Tyrion wanted her birthright, Winterfell, it is always about him.

The Book Imp seems to suffer from some sort of anxiety as well reg Sansa. Tyrion is used to buying whores/sex slaves who are paid to be submissive, call him "My Giant of Lannister" type things. Sansa was an innocent and that is not the type of person he was used to bedding/raping. He was messed up and it only has gone down hill further to where he is in the books where last left off in 2011. Pretty Dark.

You mean she publicly humiliated him and he was made to stand on Dontos Hollard's back to place the cloak around her shoulders?  Yes, I'd say that hurt his pride, after all he's been laughed at most of his life and this is his own family laughing at his humiliation. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa III

The dwarf tugged at her a third time. Stubbornly she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice. Someone behind them tittered. The queen, she thought, but it didn't matter. They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest. "Dontos, down on your hands and knees," the king commanded. "My uncle needs a boost to climb his bride."

And so it was that her lord husband cloaked her in the colors of House Lannister whilst standing on the back of a fool.

When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level. "With this kiss I pledge my love, and take you for my lord and husband."

"With this kiss I pledge my love," the dwarf replied hoarsely, "and take you for my lady and wife." He leaned forward, and their lips touched briefly.

Sansa herself felt ashamed of that. Should we not listen to her at all?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You mean she publicly humiliated him and he was made to stand on Dontos Hollard's back to place the cloak around her shoulders?  Yes, I'd say that hurt his pride, after all he's been laughed at most of his life and this is his own family laughing at his humiliation. 

Sansa herself felt ashamed of that. Should we not listen to her at all?

Yes, we should not listen to her. "Wow, the child-bride hostage felt ashamed of doing the sole thing she could do to protest against being forced to marry a 27 year old enemy she didn't want and who wanted her for a claim to her family home. How wrong she was to hurt Tyrion's pride." Fuck Tyrion's pride in this case. Guy knew for weeks she would be forced to be his wife, and like everybody else he didn't even talk to her, until Cersei had her dressed in the wedding gown to be wed within the hour. But hey, he told Shae already. WTF! Tyrion should have been crawling in a hole from shame of duping the hostage he promised to protect months before, the hostage he promised to release...Everybody there should have felt ashamed except for Sansa: the High Septon, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Kevan. But none of them were. The sole one who ended up feeling ashamed was the actual victim in it all.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, we should not listen to her. "Wow, the child-bride hostage felt ashamed of doing the sole thing she could do to protest against being forced to marry a 27 year old enemy she didn't want and who wanted her for a claim to her family home. How wrong she was to hurt Tyrion's pride." Fuck Tyrion's pride in this case. Those there who should have felt ashamed was everybody else: the High Septon, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Kevan. But none of them were. The sole one who ended up feeling ashamed was the actual victim in it all.

^^^This.  We have to keep in mind Sansa is a child victim of domestic violence.  She's internalized the language of her abusers, even though she's done a hell of a job putting up resistance in her private thoughts.  Some things still get through.  She thinks of herself as stupid because she hears non-stop from Joffrey and Cersei how stupid she is.  Are we supposed to believe her then too and validate the opinions of her abusers?  No, she's not stupid.  She's just a very sheltered child whose education in the ways of the world is now being shaped by total assholes.  Not raping someone is the lowest possible bar of human decency to pass.  She only really begins to think of Tyrion as kinder when she is away from him, when she has time and space to reflect.  Even so, it's a warped perspective because by comparison to other Lannisters I guess he would seem kinder.  Victims of abuse tend doubt their own perceptions and blame themselves for their situation. 

How long would Tyrion really have been able to hold out against his father pressuring him to consummate this marriage if the PW hadn't happened?  It's gossip around the castle that Sansa is still a virgin and it humiliates him.  He resents her for putting him through this, even though he thinks he can keep this promise I'm not so sure he can indefinitely.  Tyrion has demonstrated that he may try to take the highroad, he does snap when his is ego is threatened and then he fights dirty.  What about when Sansa grows older and doesn't have her childlike vulnerable look to illicit that protective response anymore?  When she looks fully sexually mature I don't think there's anything that can protect her at that point.           

As far as looking at Tyrion's face and feeling ashamed, I think it's also because she is fundamentally decent and doesn't want to humiliate him on the basis of him being disabled.  Not that she owes him anything.  Her first instinct was correct that she doesn't owe it to anyone to spare their feelings because no one cares about hers.  What's happening to her clearly outweighs Tyrion's feelings.  She just doesn't want to participate in the joke Joffrey is playing here because Tyrion is disabled.  That was never her goal and it just happens that her defiance of this horrific forced marriage ties into bullying Tyrion in an ableist manner.  Joffrey set that up.  Not her.  She is no way obligated to allow that to affect her decision to rebel, but she's the kind of person who would.  That makes her 100 times more decent than anyone else in the room, because she chooses to consider his feelings anyway and chooses to have pity on him.          

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

1) His comments to Cat on the way to the Vale.  The context is really important here.  Tyrion has been taken prisoner by Cat and accused publicly of the attempted murder of her son and of her wounding in the attempt.  He's been bound and blindfolded and ridden up the High Road and he's been told that it's on Littlefinger's word that he's been arrested.  Littlefinger

How best to undermine Cat's confidence in this trusted source who has falsely implicated him in this plot?  Simple.  Throw in her face his boasting at Court about taking her and Lysa's virginity.  This shows i) that LF is a liar as no one knows better than Cat when and with whom she lost her virginity and ii) that he is not her friend at all as who would boast and lie about that, ruining her reputation at Court of all places? 

If she can't trust LF's word then perhaps she should reconsider Tyrion's guilt or even release him?  Also, it seems to me that the one doing the slut-shaming all along has been LF (and slut-shaming her sister too, jeez, what a guy!).  Tyrion doesn't say this to her because he's an oversexed pervy little dwarf, he says it to undermine her belief in his guilt.  It's very calculated.  He also does it to undermine her position in front of her guards and the mercenaries: if she is not as in control and untouchable perhaps he can use that to his advantage.  And of course he does - he lures Bronn into helping him.  Which is just as well as Bronn saves his life at The Eyrie.

I agree. I don't take it as Tyrion being sexually perverse or wanting to shame Cat sexually, although I do see how some could take it that way on the surface. He is using the only weapons available to him: his mind & his mouth. His life was at stake for a crime he didn't commit & he said something insulting to the woman putting his life in danger. It was very calculated. It was not just a way to "slut-shame" Cat - it was for a specific purpose. But like I said before if it was only used to slut shame her so what? He was taken captive for a crime he didn't commit, on virtually no evidence, why does he have to be nice to her? 

 

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

As to the actual bedchamber scene, surely the pertinent part is that Tyrion does not force Sansa into having sex.  The scene ends with him promising not to touch her until or unless she wants him to.  Are we really faulting him for that?  Everyone expects him to consummate the marriage.  No one considers her a child the way we do.  The only reason she is not stripped naked by the wedding guests as part of the traditional bedding ceremony is that Tyrion is terrified of having his deformity revealed in his nakedness.  We don't have bedding ceremonies and I don't know where GRRM got the idea from but it's part of the culture and society that he has drawn whether we like it or not.  So is the idea that she is old enoughto be married and as a ward of the crown she has no more say in her marriage than Spotted Sylva.  I keep hearing Kevan being mentioned as recognising she is too young for sex.  Does he though?  He tells Tyrion two things: 1) that the marriage must be consummated and 2) he would be within his rights not to sleep with her for several years after that if he so wished.  Sounds like he's telling him he should sleep with her as much as he likes but whichever way you slice it he has to sleep with her to consummate the marriage.  After that he can attend to or ignore his duties in the bedchamber as he pleases.  He sure isn't saying "she's too young, you must only sleep with her once for now and then leave her for several years to grow up".  We might want him to say that or to mean that but he doesn't.  He's part of Westerosi culture and society not ours.

And I'll leave the final word to Sansa.  After all I think she ought to have some say with regards to Tyrion's character and sexual behaviour:

Exactly. I agree showing Sansa his manhood was not the best of ideas but in the end he didn't do it. I think for the people that this bothers it's a layered effect & it almost works backwards. After Tyrion spirals into his drunken gloominess & rapes or has sex with (depending on which side of the fence you are on) the slave girls they remember other things like "omg he showed his manhood to Sansa" or he slut shamed Cat & coupled with the the other deeds he comes to be seen as a pervert by them. The issue I have with that is that his good deeds are not judged the same. Instead of building up & forming a larger, generally "good" opinion of him the bad deeds are used to negate the good. I think on the whole Tyrion is a good guy & most of the time I can understand why he does the things he does - even the bad things. 

I tried to make the same point about Kevan earlier but did not word it as eloquently as you did. Kevan isn't suggesting she is too young to marry, no one in Planetos (that we know of) thinks anything of Sansa's age except Tyrion him self. I don't remember the conversation verbatim but when Tywin tells Tyrion he has to marry Sansa, one of the grounds Tyrion rejects on is that Sansa is so young. Tywin responds with something like "Cersei has assured me she has flowered." 

And in the end Sansa does remember Tyrion as being kind to her - which he was. That being said I'm sure Sansa could have done without the cock show. I, for one, don't feel as if him revealing himself negates all of the nice & kind things he did to/for her. 

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Hmmmmm.  He was kind to her.  Go figure.  If you can only see their interaction through a 21st century lens then she is as wrong as he is to make this judgment.  I would rather let the characters speak for themselves and try and assess them in the story context.  I've thought that since the first Chapter when Ned took seven? / six? year old Bran to watch an execution.  We don't approve of that but in the society we are reading about it's both justice and part of Bran's education in preapring to be a bannerman or deputy to Robb some day.  No point raliing agasint Ned's actions and values being different to our own, we just have to accept they are what they are or fault Ned like we fault Tyrion for sleeping with a 13 year old, er, I mean not sleeping with a 13 year old but you get my point.

The difference is there was nothing sexual in nature here. I mean I understand your point & agree with you but I'm saying the reason people aren't hollering to the high heavens that Ned abused Bran is because it wasn't anything sexual. People get very upset when there is some question of sexual perversion especially when the perpetrator is a man & the perceived victim a girl. In all reality though Bran was probably affected more by watching a man have his head cut off than Sansa was by seeing Tyrion's penis. I know I would be. 

 

5 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Weird you bring up "Muslim" countries. The article I originally quoted stated the highest age of consent in Europe is in Turkey a Muslim nation. Whereas the lowest now 14, are places in Northern Europe. Five years ago Tyrion wouldn't have been legally considered a child molester in Spain.The USA has one of the highest age of consent laws in the world. AFIAK only Bahrain at 21 is higher. In my experience of talking with Americans this leads to a social taboo about under 18. Whereas in my country it would be 16 and in Germany 14. So I agree it is a matter of subjective opinion based on the societal standards.

I live in the US & I'm fairly certain the age of consent differs by state. In my state the age of consent is 16 - to have sex but only when the other partner is under 18. If the one person is 18 then they both have to be 18 or older. The age of consent for marriage is 18. I apologize if you were only speaking of the age of consent for marriage - I haven't read your entire conversation. 

 

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You mean she publicly humiliated him and he was made to stand on Dontos Hollard's back to place the cloak around her shoulders?  Yes, I'd say that hurt his pride, after all he's been laughed at most of his life and this is his own family laughing at his humiliation. 

She does publicly humiliate him but it's literally all she can do to show her opposition to this marriage. He has a right to feel embarassed but she has a right to "rebel" in any way she can - which given what she is put through is minute. In a fairy tale she would humiliate the people who are forcing this marriage on them, not the man trying to make the best of it, but this is not a fairy tale. 

[Banner Without Brothers]

19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I live in the US & I'm fairly certain the age of consent differs by state. In my state the age of consent is 16 - to have sex but only when the other partner is under 18. If the one person is 18 then they both have to be 18 or older. The age of consent for marriage is 18. I apologize if you were only speaking of the age of consent for marriage - I haven't read your entire conversation. 

I was speaking about age of consent. But thanks for the correction I didn't know that. In most countries age of marriage seems to be higher. It's sort of strange seeing as the lower ages of consent seem to be in Catholic countries like Spain where they were ok with a 13 year old consenting to sex but they couldn't get married unless they were 14. Anyway I hope that topic is done now 

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, we should not listen to her. "Wow, the child-bride hostage felt ashamed of doing the sole thing she could do to protest against being forced to marry a 27 year old enemy she didn't want and who wanted her for a claim to her family home. How wrong she was to hurt Tyrion's pride." Fuck Tyrion's pride in this case. Guy knew for weeks she would be forced to be his wife, and like everybody else he didn't even talk to her, until Cersei had her dressed in the wedding gown to be wed within the hour. But hey, he told Shae already. WTF! Tyrion should have been crawling in a hole from shame of duping the hostage he promised to protect months before, the hostage he promised to release...Everybody there should have felt ashamed except for Sansa: the High Septon, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Kevan. But none of them were. The sole one who ended up feeling ashamed was the actual victim in it all.

We shouldn't listen to her?  Fascinating.  I see the same arguments written on this forum with regard to Dany loving Drogo.  Not that Sansa has any feelings towrds Tyrion of course except a kind of pity, her being a caring, nurturing type.  But a lot of people reject the idea that Sansa or Dany should be able to make up their own minds and own their own reactions or feelings when those reactions jar badly with 21st centruy opinions.  How dare they!?  How dare GRRM paint such a picture!?  Of course they are both arranged marriages, of course both of them are too young to be married by our standards in any case, of course neither husband is remotely like the one they would have chosen freely for themselves.  But they aren't living in our world, they don't share our sensibiities and whether you like it or not (and clearly you don't) Sansa's opinion of Tyrion after she has fled KL and is at the Eyrie is that he was kind to her, not the monster you want her to think of him as.  If she wanted to think of him as a loathsome creep I'm sure you would allow her that as it chimes with your view but she doesn't so you deny her the right to have her own voice.

She is very clear that Joffrey is a vile loathsome creep and that Cersei is a vain, egotistical and cruel woman (deciding to make the people love her if she was queen, not fear her as Cersei advised) and that all the knights of the KG are false knights so she sees through the BS and the pretence clear enough, so why should we make an acceptance for her judgment of Tyrion because it's the "wrong one" due to our mariage customs being different to Westeros.  Our marriage customs aren't their marraige customs and, bingo, she reaches a different judgment of him over the course of their sham of a marriage.

What she felt ashamed of was costing him his dignity.  There was no cruel trick planned by Joffrey to humiliate him (well there probably was but Cersei or Tywin likely reined him in), the ceremony was conducted with all due solemnity, however fake that and however much a travesty that may be, and then she went and made a fool of him.  Not Joffrey, not Cersei, just her all on her own.  It says oodles about Sansa that she felt bad about it and that seeing how much that was shaming him she voluntarily knelt afterwards and I give her a lot of credit for her reaction.  But again, I'll allow her to own all her own reactions and opinions, including that shaming Tyrion was something she regretted.

50 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

^^^This.  We have to keep in mind Sansa is a child victim of domestic violence.  She's internalized the language of her abusers, even though she's done a hell of a job putting up resistance in her private thoughts.  Some things still get through.  She thinks of herself as stupid because she hears non-stop from Joffrey and Cersei how stupid she is.  Are we supposed to believe her then too and validate the opinions of her abusers?  No, she's not stupid.  She's just a very sheltered child whose education in the ways of the world is now being shaped by total assholes.  Not raping someone is the lowest possible bar of human decency to pass.  She only really begins to think of Tyrion as kinder when she is away from him, when she has time and space to reflect.  Even so, it's a warped perspective because by comparison to other Lannisters I guess he would seem kinder.  Victims of abuse tend doubt their own perceptions and blame themselves for their situation. 

How long would Tyrion really have been able to hold out against his father pressuring him to consummate this marriage if the PW hadn't happened?  It's gossip around the castle that Sansa is still a virgin and it humiliates him.  He resents her for putting him through this, even though he thinks he can keep this promise I'm not so sure he can indefinitely.  Tyrion has demonstrated that he may try to take the highroad, he does snap when his is ego is threatened and then he fights dirty.  What about when Sansa grows older and doesn't have her childlike vulnerable look to illicit that protective response anymore?  When she looks fully sexually mature I don't think there's anything that can protect her at that point.           

As far as looking at Tyrion's face and feeling ashamed, I think it's also because she is fundamentally decent and doesn't want to humiliate him on the basis of him being disabled.  Not that she owes him anything.  Her first instinct was correct that she doesn't owe it to anyone to spare their feelings because no one cares about hers.  What's happening to her clearly outweighs Tyrion's feelings.  She just doesn't want to participate in the joke Joffrey is playing here because Tyrion is disabled.  That was never her goal and it just happens that her defiance of this horrific forced marriage ties into bullying Tyrion in an ableist manner.  Joffrey set that up.  Not her.  She is no way obligated to allow that to affect her decision to rebel, but she's the kind of person who would.  That makes her 100 times more decent than anyone else in the room, because she chooses to consider his feelings anyway and chooses to have pity on him.          

If she had stayed under Joffrey's thumb for much longer there is a danger he would have ground her down and broken her, that I agree.  But I don't agree that she was broken and that she could not tell the difference between genuine kindness and emotional manipulation or abuse.  There is no Stockholm Syndrome here.  Tyrion gave her a way out on their wedding night and she took it gratefully and he never layed a finger on her afterwards, much to her relief.  She does not think of him as an abuser because he wasn't.  He left her alone.  Joffrey tormented her and she is aware that LF wants something from her even before the kiss at the Eyrie but Tyrion didn't.  The one time I remember him wanting somehting from her and that was an emotional connection of some sort she viewed him as a needy child not an abuser.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

"Theon Greyjoy." Tyrion sighed. "Your lady mother once accused me . . . well, I will not burden you with the ugly details. She accused me falsely. I never harmed your brother Bran. And I mean no harm to you."

What does he want me to say? "That is good to know, my lord." He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be?

He's trying to reassure her and earn her trust.  Futile?  Sure.  But it does not look too threatening or abusive to me, more a little bit sad and lonley, pathetic even.  And that is just how she thinks of him, with a mixture of resigned acceptance and pity.  No threat or abuse here, just peas and stilted conversation for dinner. You can conjecture that he would not have left her alone indefinitely but that is purely conjecture.  The evidence we have shows that he did so over a fairly long period of time.

Yes, she is fundamentally decent.  She has all the right instincts and that's why, although she would not put it in your 21st century speak, she felt bad about what she did.  It's a shame that her moment of humiliation - realising that she is going to have to kneel for her dwarfish husband rather than have a handsome strapping tall knight wrap his arms around her - sparks a moment of defiance (pride even, though understandable pride) that causes his humiliation.  Of course she doesn't owe him anything - other than what she decides she does.  And that turns out to be simple courtesy.

48 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

And in the end Sansa does remember Tyrion as being kind to her - which he was. That being said I'm sure Sansa could have done without the cock show. I, for one, don't feel as if him revealing himself negates all of the nice & kind things he did to/for her. 

The difference is there was nothing sexual in nature here. I mean I understand your point & agree with you but I'm saying the reason people aren't hollering to the high heavens that Ned abused Bran is because it wasn't anything sexual. People get very upset when there is some question of sexual perversion especially when the perpetrator is a man & the perceived victim a girl. In all reality though Bran was probably affected more by watching a man have his head cut off than Sansa was by seeing Tyrion's penis. I know I would be.

For sure .  She is dreading everything about the bedchamber but then he gives her a way out and she takes it as fast as she can. 

Yes, of course the sexual politics of an earlier / fictional age that offer far less agency to women is going to be a helluva hot potato.  I've said all along that we have to accept the framework of Westerosi customs in reaching an opinion, otherwise we would reject pretty much every marriage as an arranged one that the woman had no say in.  The marriages of Dany and Sansa attract particular anger partly because there are still such arrangements going on today (someone posted a lot about that upthread and the fate of the Chibok girls still appalls me) but I feel we have to go with the story here and the real life examples of Anne Neville, married at 14, widowed, married again at 16 and Margaret Beaufort, married to 24 year old Edmund Tudor when she was 12. Anne Neville became Queen of England and Margaret Beaufort gave birth to a son when she was 13 who later became Henry VII. 

I hope people realise this is where GRRM took his inspiration from and that in the context of our fictional Westeros the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa is not as outrageous as it is to us.  If people can't leave their 21st century prespective at the door I'm not sure how they read the characters in a fictional medieval world: how do they read Ned or Robb beheading someone?  It appalls us but we have to suspend that feeling somewhat to assess and appreciate the characters and I mean all of them not just cock show Tyrion

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You mean she publicly humiliated him and he was made to stand on Dontos Hollard's back to place the cloak around her shoulders?  Yes, I'd say that hurt his pride, after all he's been laughed at most of his life and this is his own family laughing at his humiliation. 

Sansa herself felt ashamed of that. Should we not listen to her at all?

Sansa owed him nothing. She owed the Lannisters nothing. She had no say in this marriage, her family had no say in it neither. it was meant to basically legalize what was assumed to be the forthcoming rape so that any offspring could be used in the future to steal Winterfell and the North from the Starks.

[A Ghost of Someone]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, we should not listen to her. "Wow, the child-bride hostage felt ashamed of doing the sole thing she could do to protest against being forced to marry a 27 year old enemy she didn't want and who wanted her for a claim to her family home. How wrong she was to hurt Tyrion's pride." Fuck Tyrion's pride in this case. Guy knew for weeks she would be forced to be his wife, and like everybody else he didn't even talk to her, until Cersei had her dressed in the wedding gown to be wed within the hour. But hey, he told Shae already. WTF! Tyrion should have been crawling in a hole from shame of duping the hostage he promised to protect months before, the hostage he promised to release...Everybody there should have felt ashamed except for Sansa: the High Septon, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Kevan. But none of them were. The sole one who ended up feeling ashamed was the actual victim in it all.

This. Tyrion and his family were pure villains in this forced marriage, not to mention that he is a hideously disfigured dwarf, renown for drunkenness and whore mongering. What young lady would want to willingly lose their virginity to that being?