Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[the trees have eyes]

19 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sansa owed him nothing. She owed the Lannisters nothing. She had no say in this marriage, her family had no say in it neither. it was meant to basically legalize what was assumed to be the forthcoming rape so that any offspring could be used in the future to steal Winterfell and the North from the Starks.

 

16 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

This. Tyrion and his family were pure villains in this forced marriage, not to mention that he is a hideously disfigured dwarf, renown for drunkenness and whore mongering. What young lady would want to willingly lose their virginity to that being?

No one is contesting any of that.  It is all obvious and indisputable. What we are discussing is how Tyrion's behaviour towards her is experienced and remembered by Sansa herself.  I keep quoting her povs to illustrate this.  It seems your outrage (and that of others) is still too strong to consider her opinion which is a shame but there it is.

[A Ghost of Someone]

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

No one is contesting any of that.  It is all obvious and indisputable. What we are discussing is how Tyrion's behaviour towards her is experienced and remembered by Sansa herself.  I keep quoting her povs to illustrate this.  It seems your outrage (and that of others) is still too strong to consider her opinion which is a shame but there it is.

Sansa's reflections seem to show that she is suffering PTSD. She was not raped by him and that has left her whole for the future. To her, that is a small blessing but had the PW not been executed, he planned too that night. She does not know that but that is what was going to go down. Sansa is a very tender hearted, good person who shows through as she is trying to stay alive in KL. What the Lannisters did to her, attempted to do to her is abominable. Tyrion took part in that and had other plans. As I stated up thread before.

Now, Tyrion seems to suffer from some sort of anxiety in his own right in that he did not rape her on the farce of a wedding night as she is not what he has been accustomed to. He cannot buy her lying complicity as he can his Sex slave prostitutes who tell him what he wants to hear as he has his way with them. Sansa is innocent and clearly wants nothing to do with him. His family has wronged her and her family.

 

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

13 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sansa's reflections seem to show that she is suffering PTSD. She was not raped by him and that has left her whole for the future. To her, that is a small blessing but had the PW not been executed, he planned too that night. She does not know that but that is what was going to go down. Sansa is a very tender hearted, good person who shows through as she is trying to stay alive in KL. What the Lannisters did to her, attempted to do to her is abominable. Tyrion took part in that and had other plans. As I stated up thread before.

Now, Tyrion seems to suffer from some sort of anxiety in his own right in that he did not rape her on the farce of a wedding night as she is not what he has been accustomed to. He cannot buy her lying complicity as he can his Sex slave prostitutes who tell him what he wants to hear as he has his way with them. Sansa is innocent and clearly wants nothing to do with him. His family has wronged her and her family.

 

  Tyrion had no such intention.  You've been consistently close-minded and dogmatic throughout this thread so I shouldn't be too surprised I suppose.

And she's not suffering from PTSD.  She's perfectly able to identify that Joffrey was a sadistic shit who abused her but Tyrion wasn't and didn't.  If only some posters could do the same

[Morte]

On 26.10.2017 at 7:29 AM, Tygett Lannister said:

  Reveal hidden contents

No, if you have your period that doesn't means your sex organs are fully developed, far from it. Not sure if you ever had any sex education but woman can safely have sex at about age of 17 before that penetration can cause injuries and I am not a woman to know that. 

A man with strong libido will get a bonner when he sees female organs even if 13 years old ones he will know it is wrong and will ask her to cover herself you can have bonner and be disgusted at the same time you dont control your bonner animal inside you does.

 

 

On 26.10.2017 at 0:34 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

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What exactly do you mean by sexual organs? I am a woman & have had plenty of sex education. A 14 - 15 year old girl & younger depending on her body can have sex & deliver a baby with virtually no issues. The problem arises with teen pregnancy because teens are less likely to seek prenatal care, more likely to come in contact with an STD, etc. Not to say every teen girl would have sex & deliver with no issues but there is nothing in their age stopping that from happening. 

I'm not a man so I won't speak on the boners but it grosses me out. 

 

Spoiler

 

Actually, a female can conceive long before her menarche (first menstruation), but it's not healthy at all, especially not mentally, as the mental state (mental development is not tight to that of the reproduction organs, the brain takes it's own time, and matures different) of the female is still mostly that of a child by that time (Yes, also in cultures in which it is still common today to marry a daughter of at the age of 12-14; but it's not like the mental or even physical health of women would be truly cared about it such settings). Mistakening the menarche for the end of the puberty (and therefore thinking the female body fully developed by that time) is common for pre-modern cultures without a proper medicine, so it was believed in ancient Greek and the mediaeval to modern period (fun fact: Soranos and his fellow gynaecologists of the Roman empire got it almost right), while in fact the menarche starts for two reasons only, none of them a sigh for maturity of the female body (oversimplified):

1. The level of sexual hormones starts to rise, because of this the female body begins to deposit fat, leading to a gain of weight (and the development of hips and breasts). [Sidenote: Today we assume that because of the nurture situation in antiquity and mediaeval Europe most women would not get their menarche before they turned 15-18, so in fact most "newly flowered" brides would indeed be a lot more matured mentally than today child-brides are]

2. When, and only when a specific percent of the female's weight is contributed by fat-cells, the menarche starts. That's why many athletic women don't have a menstruation anymore: The monthly bleeding stops the moment this percent drops below a specific level (more muscles=less fat=no bleeding), while the women are completely healthy (this is what Soranos understood).

So Tygett is right; of course in the context of Westeros we can not blame the people for believing it the wrong way around and it does speak for Tyrion in this moment to not consume the marriage.

 

 

[Tygett Lannister]

On 10/26/2017 at 0:34 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

  Reveal hidden contents

What exactly do you mean by sexual organs? I am a woman & have had plenty of sex education. A 14 - 15 year old girl & younger depending on her body can have sex & deliver a baby with virtually no issues. The problem arises with teen pregnancy because teens are less likely to seek prenatal care, more likely to come in contact with an STD, etc. Not to say every teen girl would have sex & deliver with no issues but there is nothing in their age stopping that from happening. 

I'm not a man so I won't speak on the boners but it grosses me out. 

Spoiler

What I am trying to say is vagina is not developed enough pre-17 to be penetrated. Penetration can cause injuries (has to do something with fluids in it, I am unsure). That is what I have heard from a doctor.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  Tyrion had no such intention.  You've been consistently close-minded and dogmatic throughout this thread so I shouldn't be too surprised I suppose.

And she's not suffering from PTSD.  She's perfectly able to identify that Joffrey was a sadistic shit who abused her but Tyrion wasn't and didn't.  If only some posters could do the same

Tyrion was absolutely going to take her. He had enough, his mindset was like, "well, she will get over it". There was a lot of pressure on him as other posters have stated, he was being made fun of. Sansa was still a virgin, his pride and ego was at stake.

Sansa in the Vale, yes, especially after Lysa was gone, she is clearly suffering from PTSD, the illusion of being Allayne. She is mentally damaged.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Morte said:

 

 

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Actually, a female can conceive long before her menarche (first menstruation), but it's not healthy at all, especially not mentally, as the mental state (mental development is not tight to that of the reproduction organs, the brain takes it's own time, and matures different) of the female is still mostly that of a child by that time (Yes, also in cultures in which it is still common today to marry a daughter of at the age of 12-14; but it's not like the mental or even physical health of women would be truly cared about it such settings). Mistakening the menarche for the end of the puberty (and therefore thinking the female body fully developed by that time) is common for pre-modern cultures without a proper medicine, so it was believed in ancient Greek and the mediaeval to modern period (fun fact: Soranos and his fellow gynaecologists of the Roman empire got it almost right), while in fact the menarche starts for two reasons only, none of them a sigh for maturity of the female body (oversimplified):

1. The level of sexual hormones starts to rise, because of this the female body begins to deposit fat, leading to a gain of weight (and the development of hips and breasts). [Sidenote: Today we assume that because of the nurture situation in antiquity and mediaeval Europe most women would not get their menarche before they turned 15-18, so in fact most "newly flowered" brides would indeed be a lot more matured mentally than today child-brides are]

2. When, and only when a specific percent of the female's weight is contributed by fat-cells, the menarche starts. That's why many athletic women don't have a menstruation anymore: The monthly bleeding stops the moment this percent drops below a specific level (more muscles=less fat=no bleeding), while the women are completely healthy (this is what Soranos understood).

So Tygett is right; of course in the context of Westeros we can not blame the people for believing it the wrong way around and it does speak for Tyrion in this moment to not consume the marriage.

 

 

Well I'm not sure where the argument of when a female can conceive came in as I didn't mention that but thanks for the info. Also I'm in agreement with Tygett as to taking the situation into the Westerosi context. What I was referring to is that he kept saying a females sexual organs are not fully developed until such & such age. I'm not exactly sure what he is meaning by sexual organs but it really doesn't make a difference. There is no magic age a female is fully developed, every ones body is different. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

50 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

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What I am trying to say is vagina is not developed enough pre-17 to be penetrated. Penetration can cause injuries (has to do something with fluids in it, I am unsure). That is what I have heard from a doctor.

 

That is untrue. There are many people who are fine before the age of 17 & I'm sure plenty who would be considered undeveloped after 17. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

38 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was absolutely going to take her. He had enough, his mindset was like, "well, she will get over it". There was a lot of pressure on him as other posters have stated, he was being made fun of. Sansa was still a virgin, his pride and ego was at stake.

Sansa in the Vale, yes, especially after Lysa was gone, she is clearly suffering from PTSD, the illusion of being Allayne. She is mentally damaged

If you can provide a single quote that eludes to this then we can talk. If not it's more of your made up nonsense. 

Please tell me how Sansa's judgement is skewed when it comes to Tyrion because of her "PTSD" but not when it comes to Cersei or Joffrey - or anyone else for that matter. 

[sweetsunray]

15 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

We shouldn't listen to her?  Fascinating.  I see the same arguments written on this forum with regard to Dany loving Drogo.  Not that Sansa has any feelings towrds Tyrion of course except a kind of pity, her being a caring, nurturing type.  But a lot of people reject the idea that Sansa or Dany should be able to make up their own minds and own their own reactions or feelings when those reactions jar badly with 21st centruy opinions.  How dare they!?  How dare GRRM paint such a picture!?  Of course they are both arranged marriages, of course both of them are too young to be married by our standards in any case, of course neither husband is remotely like the one they would have chosen freely for themselves.  But they aren't living in our world, they don't share our sensibiities and whether you like it or not (and clearly you don't) Sansa's opinion of Tyrion after she has fled KL and is at the Eyrie is that he was kind to her, not the monster you want her to think of him as.  If she wanted to think of him as a loathsome creep I'm sure you would allow her that as it chimes with your view but she doesn't so you deny her the right to have her own voice.

That's a strawman. I said nothing about Dany here nor how Sansa reflects on Tyrion having been kind to her for not exercising his husband's rights on his child-bride months after she escaped him.

The quote you provided of Sansa feeling "ashamed" during the marriage ceremony is the one I reject as one we should listen to for guidance on who was the real victim in that situation. And that one was the sole one I responded to.

And, no I don't think GRRM is painting a picture of Sansa being in the wrong here at all! That's just more straw man. He's writing a realistic scene of a victim feeling ashamed while everybody else either laughs or is angry with her, when they are nowhere near the victim. But somehow you think GRRM wrote it to show us what a villain Sansa was to Tyrion and how she ought to feel ashamed for it, and see she did... no surprise there coming from you. You don't even get how GRRM just played you and reveals that some readers have as little ability to put things in perspective as Tyrion is unable to.

Really, is that all you can come up with: change the scope and outline of what I discussed to straw men arguments I said nothing about, just to sidestep the obvious issue of Sansa feeling ahsamed of not bending for Tyrion during her outrage of a marriage? Oh and if that marriage was so "normal" then that's why they kept it to themselves, and didn't even inform anyone else until after after the fact, and Robb's and Cat's outrage is but exaggeration, and Braavos is only doing a play about it because it's so the "norm".

[the trees have eyes]

30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's a strawman. I said nothing about Dany here nor how Sansa reflects on Tyrion having been kind to her for not exercising his husband's rights on his child-bride months after she escaped him.

The quote you provided of Sansa feeling "ashamed" during the marriage ceremony is the one I reject as one we should listen to for guidance on who was the real victim in that situation. And that one was the sole one I responded to.

And, no I don't think GRRM is painting a picture of Sansa being in the wrong here at all! He's writing a realistic scene of a victim feeling ashamed while everybody else either laughs or is angry with her, when they are nowhere near the victim. But somehow you think GRRM wrote it to show us what a villain Sansa was to Tyrion and how she ought to feel ashamed for it, and see she did... no surprise there coming from you. You don't even get how GRRM just played you and reveals that some readers have as little ability to put things in perspective as Tyrion is unable to.

You say strawman a lot.  Perhaps you should use it where it's appropriate.  I made the comparison between Dany and Sansa being denied the right to form their own opinions and I'm free to make that comparison because it happens a lot on these forums and it's my comparison.  If I accused you of making that argument you might have a point but I didn't and you don't.

I'll still let Sansa speak for herself, something you seem incapable of.  She felt bad about humiliating Tyrion.  That's all there is to it.  Deal with it.

And as predicted the emotion spills into outrage.  I never said that any of the bolded, merely that she felt bad about her decision not to kneel and thus causing him humilliation.  "No surprise there coming from you"?  Oh can your outrage, it's SANSA who thinks that.  Perhaps you might consider her opinion has more weight than yours.  It sure does with me.  And drop the personal slurs or jog on.

 

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was absolutely going to take her. He had enough, his mindset was like, "well, she will get over it". There was a lot of pressure on him as other posters have stated, he was being made fun of. Sansa was still a virgin, his pride and ego was at stake.

Sansa in the Vale, yes, especially after Lysa was gone, she is clearly suffering from PTSD, the illusion of being Allayne. She is mentally damaged.

It looks like you realise that he did not have the intention of raping her after the purple wedding and are backpeddling hard while still trying to maintain your specious argument.

How about you just admit you made up misremembered the text?  No harm in being wrong as long as you are a big enough person to acknowledge it.

You realise she knows she isn't Alayne or LF's daughter, right?  It's an act to stay hidden.

[sweetsunray]

34 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You say strawman a lot.  Perhaps you should use it where it's appropriate.  I made the comparison between Dany and Sansa being denied the right to form their own opinions and I'm free to make that comparison because it happens a lot on these forums and it's my comparison.  If I accused you of making that argument you might have a point but I didn't and you don't.

Yes, because you used straw men arguments. You quoted me and those were the first things you said in reply to it. If it wasn't meant to include me, you shouldn't have quoted me, because it didn't mention Dany, nor even denied Sansa the right to form her own opinion. But you did quote me and it were your first points. This above you wrote here is bullshit.

34 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'll still let Sansa speak for herself, something you seem incapable of.  She felt bad about humiliating Tyrion.  That's all there is to it.  Deal with it.

See. In the first quote you say it wasn't meant to implicate me, but next paragraph you do. And once again it's a misrepresentation. I'm not saying she's in capable of speaking of herself. I'm saying that Sansa's feelings of being ashamed that very moment do not convince me that she even should feel ashamed for it, as little as Tyrion's anger and resentment over it convince me he was "wronged".

There's no denying that what a POV feels is what they feel. I'm not denying that. I do however reject the notion that I should let their subjectivity be the guide on my opinion and perspective of what actually happens in that situation.

Now deal with that!

34 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

And drop the personal slurs or jog on.

If you use fishy debate tactics I will make sure that everyone can smell it far and wide. If you can't handle that, there's an ignore function for you at hand. I'm going nowhere.

[the trees have eyes]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Yes, because you used straw men arguments. You quoted me and those were the first things you said in reply to it. If it wasn't meant to include me, you shouldn't have quoted me, because it didn't mention Dany, nor even denied Sansa the right to form her own opinion. But you did quote me and it were your first points. This above you wrote here is bullshit.

See. In the first quote you say it wasn't meant to implicate me, but next paragraph you do. And once again it's a misrepresentation. I'm not saying she's in capable of speaking of herself. I'm saying that Sansa's feelings of being ashamed that very moment do not convince me that she even should feel ashamed for it, as much as Tyrion's anger and resentment over it convince me he was "wronged".

There's no denying that what a POV feels is what they feel. I'm not denying that. I do however reject the notion that I should let their subjectivity be the guide on my opinion and perspective of what actually happens in that situation.

Now deal with that!

If you use fishy debate tactics I will make sure that everyone can smell it far and wide. If you can't handle that, there's an ignore function for you at hand. I'm going nowhere.

Oh, I use strawman arguments do I?

Let's take this from you

Quote

But somehow you think GRRM wrote it to show us what a villain Sansa was to Tyrion and how she ought to feel ashamed for it

See, that's a strawman.  I have never said such a thing but don't let that stop you from pretending otherwise.  And how does what you quote justify accusing me of a strawman argument.  Do you even know what a strawman is?  What a hypocrite!

Looks to me that you are inventing stuff and introducing ad hominem arguments and that the fishy stuff is coming from you.  I'm quite happy debating the text, including the inconvenient bits you ignore and you act like you're shining the light of truth on my misconduct.  Looks pretty dishonest to me.

[Tygett Lannister]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That is untrue. There are many people who are fine before the age of 17 & I'm sure plenty who would be considered undeveloped after 17. 

Exactly some women can be developed pre17 but especially then they didnt know for each individual so better just wait after age of 17 when large majority is developed.

[ChuckPunch]

Tyrion is a rapist, murderer and participant in using people as chattel slavery.

He is a monster inside and out, and Tyrion apologists are just as reprehensible as he is himself.

[Tygett Lannister]

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was absolutely going to take her. He had enough, his mindset was like, "well, she will get over it". There was a lot of pressure on him as other posters have stated, he was being made fun of. Sansa was still a virgin, his pride and ego was at stake.

Sansa in the Vale, yes, especially after Lysa was gone, she is clearly suffering from PTSD, the illusion of being Allayne. She is mentally damaged.

Do you know what PTSD is?It is when you kill a man in vietnam war and now any thing that is related to that event is triggering you to have flashbacks.

"Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event"

Is Sansa having flashbacks of Tyrions cock every time anyone has hands close to their cock area? If she had PTSD it would probably be her dads execution.

[Tygett Lannister]

14 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

Tyrion is a rapist, murderer and participant in using people as chattel slavery.

He is a monster inside and out, and Tyrion apologists are just as reprehensible as he is himself.

Aaaaand I'm a rapist, murderer.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Oh, I use strawman arguments do I?

Let's take this from you

See, that's a strawman.  I have never said such a thing but don't let that stop you from pretending otherwise.  And how does what you quote justify accusing me of a strawman argument.  Do you even know what a strawman is?  What a hypocrite!

Looks to me that you are inventing stuff and introducing ad hominem arguments and that the fishy stuff is coming from you.  I'm quite happy debating the text, including the inconvenient bits you ignore and you act like you're shining the light of truth on my misconduct.  Looks pretty dishonest to me.

I know what a strawman is: I've been debating for 20 years.

Now, I did forget to put a question mark at the end of that sentence. Of course, I summarized the gist of your posts about this there. You never said that literaly the way I did: but you're the one using Sansa's feelings of being ashamed in that moment that Tyrion resents to defend to others that Tyrion's feelings were hurt so much that him resenting her throughout that injustice of a marriage is something we may  not judge him selfish for. You're confusing a summary of what your arguments are about (in defense of Tyion) with a strawman. Think me a hypocrite, fine, by all means. At least I'm actually saying what I'm doing, and not this "quote  you (aka me), give a lecture about what posters say that you (aka I) were not even talking about or in a whole different situation, pooh-pooh strawman, go on the offense of denying a character's feelings and do another strawman, but let's make sure that nobody else figures out that I'm defending a adult man forcing a girl of 13 into marrying him, and I'm over the moon that the victim is feeling ashamed for hurting his oh so very precious ego".

So, you say this is a straw man? Can I then conclude that you actually are capable of putting things into perspective, recognize Sansa to be the victim here, and that if Tyrion was actually a good guy, he'd not resent her for not bending and later for not wanting to sleep with him, but be actually empathic about it? Because if you can agree with that, then we can conclude we're an agreement, right?

WTF did I ignore text? WTF did I deny something wasn't in the text?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

34 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Aaaaand I'm a rapist, murderer.

me too I guess