Bowen Marsh was right to remove Jon from office.

[cpg2016]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is tantamount to declaring war on House Bolton.  No house would tolerate this kind of interference from the Night's Watch.  

I agree.  His only job is to fight the Others.  And he was doing fine until he got it into that thick head of his to steal Arya from Ramsay.  That got the whole snowball of tragedies rolling.  It was all Jon's fault.

No.  Not at all.  His brothers were planning to kill him before the Pink Letter.  Again, it requires a suspension of disbelief so huge as to be stupid to think that Bowen Marsh walks out of the Shield Hall, randomly runs into the half dozen or so people he thinks will agree with him, and they all agree to kill Jon.  It's obviously been planned for quite some time, as Marsh has had opportunity to sound out other conspirators.  Wick is directly under his purview.  The way the mutiny came together makes it clear that this is about the wildlings being both saved at risk to the Watch, and being put in positions of authority.  So whatever you think of his motivations, Jon was acting both ethically and legally up until the Pink Letter.  Marsh wants to assassinate him because he's a bigot who can't see the forest for the trees, that is all.

And again, legally speaking, Jon is 100% right to intervene against the Boltons.  Their actions are helping the Others.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 04/07/2017 at 6:40 AM, Rickon Stark The Aulë said:

But what is the greater good? Is gathering men to fight in a war that isn't a war against the others for the greater good? What Jon was proposing was letting  men which are in short supply pretty much everywhere off to fight in a war in the middle of winter to slaughter more able-bodied men that could fight against the others. How is that in the "greater good"? 

This is an interesting point. The good guys killing each other while the monsters are waiting for the survivors. The Wheel of Time has 13 out of 14 books of that. But TWoT has unequivocal monsters. And the heroes are passing the stupidity understanding. ASoIaF is not like that. The monsters are the humans. Not Jon but Ramsey and his like. If we don't agree on that, we will not agree on anything. The Others are returning "to punish the wickedness of men". As is said in TWoIaF. OK, this is Further East legends. But how well it is fitting to the current situation!

Jon is the PTwP. Not Ramsey. The Night will come. And it will not leave until the like of Ramsey are all gone. Or the Night would be without purpose. So Jon has no alternative in fact. Either Ramsey dies, whatever the cost. Or everyone dies.

Even if the Others can be defeated. Which is unlikely once the Long Night has come. The Night will last as long as the Lion of Night, the gods, will see necessary. There is no victory against this argument. Because the gods have the light switch.

[Denam_Pavel]

4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

No.  Not at all.  His brothers were planning to kill him before the Pink Letter.  Again, it requires a suspension of disbelief so huge as to be stupid to think that Bowen Marsh walks out of the Shield Hall, randomly runs into the half dozen or so people he thinks will agree with him, and they all agree to kill Jon.  It's obviously been planned for quite some time, as Marsh has had opportunity to sound out other conspirators.  Wick is directly under his purview.  The way the mutiny came together makes it clear that this is about the wildlings being both saved at risk to the Watch, and being put in positions of authority.  So whatever you think of his motivations, Jon was acting both ethically and legally up until the Pink Letter.  Marsh wants to assassinate him because he's a bigot who can't see the forest for the trees, that is all.

And again, legally speaking, Jon is 100% right to intervene against the Boltons.  Their actions are helping the Others.

Why would he need to walk out for that? Jon announced in front of hundreds of brothers how he betrayed and was gonna continue to betray the Watch. He READ the Pink Letter to them, he did not  then go on to explain that he did not have anything to do with Mance Rayder still being alive contrary to it's contents (Jon is not that good a liar). Marsh ONLY needed a few of those brothers to do what clear as day needed to be done right effing now, before Jon leaves at the helm of a host of armed wildlings to capture castles several hundreds of miles south of the Wall and restore the King Beyond The Wall  to power and save his own sister.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

No, it isn't, and I pity the state of our public education system if this is as far as your knowledge of government goes.

First off, Congressmen aren't elected for life, they are elected for a set period, Jon isn't.  Second, and much more importantly, Congressmen aren't vested with supreme judicial and executive power, whereas the Lord Commander is.  Jon is a king in all but name.  An elective king, but a king nonetheless.  Third, the fact that the NW doesn't vote by secret ballot undermines the democratic nature of the process.  Jon is not a "representative" of the Night's Watch.  He is it's supreme executive, it's only judicial authority, and it's legislative branch all rolled into one.  Representatives are theoretically supposed to look out for the specific interests of their individual municipal unit.  The POTUS, for example, does not.  His job is to make a decision that he thinks is in the best interests of the country, not a constituency.  Similarly, Jon's job is not to represent the brothers of the Watch; his job is to command them in their fight against the Others.  That, and only that, is his job description.  He can do whatever he wants with respect to the wildlings, with respect to the Seven Kingdoms, etc as long as he thinks it will serve that one goal.  Obviously in normal circumstances it is wise to manage your command well to not provoke a mutiny, but Jon will be killed no matter what, because Bowen Marsh is unhappy with the one policy which unquestionably furthers the goals of the Watch; the rescue and integration of the wildlings into the army of humanity.  That is Jon's great triumph (overcoming deep prejudice to understand the wildlings are not the enemy), but it's also the one thing which is getting him killed, because Bowen Marsh has forgotten his oaths.  He would rather let humanity die than give up his bigotry.

Moreover, even IF all you said was true, it requires a trial to depose a Congressman or Supreme Court Justice or President or anyone else.  If I, as a Congressman, go out and kill someone in broad daylight, it is still VERY illegal to kill me the next day, despite the obviousness of my criminality.

And while I unfortunately missed this thread because the last one closed and I couldn't find it, we need to always keep this in mind: Bowen Marsh was plotting treason long before the Pink Letter.  He never states that the Pink Letter is the proximate cause for the assassination, and the speed with which he assembles reliably co-conspirators make it downright impossible that this is an act of passion.  

Marsh has been pissed off for a while about Jon letting wildlings through the Wall, and moreover, putting them in positions of high authority within the Watch hierarchy.  He's obviously been soliciting other disaffected brothers, which is why he can go straight to them in the aftermath of Jon's decision in the Shield Hall (which again, there is nothing illegal about him going South, it is in support of his only mission).  

That's a great post.  

Regarding Marsh's plotting against Jon, he's been doing it since ASoS, as @The Fattest Leech pointed out a few pages back - or in the thread's previous iteration. Maybe back then he wasn't plotting to murder Jon yet, but he was plotting against him nonetheless. And back then it was just b/c he was shitting his breeches w/ fear of the IT and especially of Tywin Lannister. So, a coward.

And later, in Dance, he is against every single idea Jon has because he's a narrow-minded dumbass bigot. And a coward, did I say coward before? Anyways, I agree wholeheartedly that he was plotting to murder Jon well before the PL and Jon's announcement in the Shieldhall. 

As @Fire Eater brought up, when Marsh, Yarwick and the septon go see Jon, Marsh is the only one who refuses food and drink. A pretty big clue imo. Then, before Jon tells them that he will let the wildlings pass, he is very upset w/ Jon's decision to appoint Leathers as the new master-at-arms and Satin as his steward. One is a savage, the other a boy whore. Bigot, did I say he's a bigot? 

ADwD, Jon VIII

“We need good men at Long Barrow.”
“Whore’s Hole, the men have started calling it,” said Marsh, “but be that as it may. Is it true that you mean to replace Emmett with this savage Leathers as our master-at-arms? That is an office most oft reserved for knights, or rangers at the least.”
“Leathers is savage,” Jon agreed mildly. “I can attest to that. I’ve tried him in the practice yard. He’s as dangerous with a stone axe as most knights are with castle-forged steel. I grant you, he is not as patient as I’d like, and some of the boys are terrified of him … but that’s not all for the bad. One day they’ll find themselves in a real fight, and a certain familiarity with terror will serve them well.”
“He’s a wildling.”
“He was, until he said the words. Now he is our brother. One who can teach the boys more than swordcraft. It would not hurt them to learn a few words of the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk.”
“Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”
“The men do not trust him.”
Which men? Jon might have asked. How many? But that would lead him down a road he did not mean to ride. “I am sorry to hear that. Is there more?”                                                Septon Cellador spoke up. “This boy Satin. It’s said you mean to make him your steward and squire, in Tollett’s place. My lord, the boy’s a whore … a … dare I say … a painted catamite from the brothels of Oldtown.”.                                                                            And you are a drunk. “What he was in Oldtown is none of our concern. He’s quick to learn and very clever. The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all. He’s fearless in a fight and can even read and write after a fashion. He should be capable of fetching me my meals and saddling my horse, don’t you think?”
“Most like,” said Bowen Marsh, stony-faced, “but the men do not like it. Traditionally the lord commander’s squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command. Does my lord believe the men of the Night’s Watch would ever follow a whore into battle?”                    Jon’s temper flashed. “They have followed worse. The Old Bear left a few cautionary notes about certain of the men, for his successor. We have a cook at the Shadow Tower who was fond of raping septas. He burned a seven-pointed star into his flesh for every one he claimed. His left arm is stars from wrist to elbow, and stars mark his calves as well. At Eastwatch we have a man who set his father’s house afire and barred the door. His entire family burned to death, all nine. Whatever Satin may have done in Oldtown, he is our brother now, and he will be my squire.”
Septon Cellador drank some wine. Othell Yarwyck stabbed a sausage with his dagger. Bowen Marsh sat red-faced. The raven flapped its wings and said, “Corn, corn, kill.” Finally the Lord Steward cleared his throat. “Your lordship knows best, I am sure.”

So, there. The trifecta: a coward, a bigot, and an eejit. 

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's a great post.  

Regarding Marsh's plotting against Jon, he's been doing it since ASoS, as @The Fattest Leech pointed out a few pages back - or in the thread's previous iteration. Maybe back then he wasn't plotting to murder Jon yet, but he was plotting against him nonetheless. And back then it was just b/c he was shitting his breeches w/ fear of the IT and especially of Tywin Lannister. So, a coward.

And later, in Dance, he is against every single idea Jon has because he's a narrow-minded dumbass bigot. And a coward, did I say coward before? Anyways, I agree wholeheartedly that he was plotting to murder Jon well before the PL and Jon's announcement in the Shieldhall. 

As @Fire Eater brought up, when Marsh, Yarwick and the septon go see Jon, Marsh is the only one who refuses food and drink. A pretty big clue imo. Then, before Jon tells them that he will let the wildlings pass, he is very upset w/ Jon's decision to appoint Leathers as the new master-at-arms and Satin as his steward. One is a savage, the other a boy whore. Bigot, did I say he's a bigot? 

ADwD, Jon VIII

“We need good men at Long Barrow.”
“Whore’s Hole, the men have started calling it,” said Marsh, “but be that as it may. Is it true that you mean to replace Emmett with this savage Leathers as our master-at-arms? That is an office most oft reserved for knights, or rangers at the least.”
“Leathers is savage,” Jon agreed mildly. “I can attest to that. I’ve tried him in the practice yard. He’s as dangerous with a stone axe as most knights are with castle-forged steel. I grant you, he is not as patient as I’d like, and some of the boys are terrified of him … but that’s not all for the bad. One day they’ll find themselves in a real fight, and a certain familiarity with terror will serve them well.”
“He’s a wildling.”
“He was, until he said the words. Now he is our brother. One who can teach the boys more than swordcraft. It would not hurt them to learn a few words of the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk.”
“Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”
“The men do not trust him.”
Which men? Jon might have asked. How many? But that would lead him down a road he did not mean to ride. “I am sorry to hear that. Is there more?”                                                Septon Cellador spoke up. “This boy Satin. It’s said you mean to make him your steward and squire, in Tollett’s place. My lord, the boy’s a whore … a … dare I say … a painted catamite from the brothels of Oldtown.”.                                                                            And you are a drunk. “What he was in Oldtown is none of our concern. He’s quick to learn and very clever. The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all. He’s fearless in a fight and can even read and write after a fashion. He should be capable of fetching me my meals and saddling my horse, don’t you think?”
“Most like,” said Bowen Marsh, stony-faced, “but the men do not like it. Traditionally the lord commander’s squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command. Does my lord believe the men of the Night’s Watch would ever follow a whore into battle?”                    Jon’s temper flashed. “They have followed worse. The Old Bear left a few cautionary notes about certain of the men, for his successor. We have a cook at the Shadow Tower who was fond of raping septas. He burned a seven-pointed star into his flesh for every one he claimed. His left arm is stars from wrist to elbow, and stars mark his calves as well. At Eastwatch we have a man who set his father’s house afire and barred the door. His entire family burned to death, all nine. Whatever Satin may have done in Oldtown, he is our brother now, and he will be my squire.”
Septon Cellador drank some wine. Othell Yarwyck stabbed a sausage with his dagger. Bowen Marsh sat red-faced. The raven flapped its wings and said, “Corn, corn, kill.” Finally the Lord Steward cleared his throat. “Your lordship knows best, I am sure.”

So, there. The trifecta: a coward, a bigot, and an eejit. 

 

 

So true. All of the conspirators are shown to be shallow minded antagonists. Why is that? Do people really think George is going to let division and bigotry win in the end????

The bigots hate Jon for being a Stark, hate Satin for being gay, hate the wildling because they know death is coming for them and they want to be safe. Hell Mormont, Qhorin, and Maester Aemon all see the value in Jon and his skills. Even back in Game when Jon was still surly he was able to come to realize what really matters:

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

"Maybe it is so," Maester Aemon said. "Tell me, Chett, what would you have us do with such a boy?"

"Leave him where he is," Chett said. "The Wall is no place for the weak. Let him train until he is ready, no matter how many years that takes. Ser Alliser shall make a man of him or kill him, as the gods will."

"That's stupid," Jon said. He took a deep breath to gather his thoughts. "I remember once I asked Maester Luwin why he wore a chain around his throat."

Maester Aemon touched his own collar lightly, his bony, wrinkled finger stroking the heavy metal links. "Go on."

"He told me that a maester's collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve," Jon said, remembering. "I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn't that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can't make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people."

Maester Aemon smiled. "And so?"

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. Why shouldn't Sam be a steward?"

(and then Chett interrupts and ruins it )

Even Jojen knows this when he explains this Bran during his "the land is one" speech.

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 His brothers were planning to kill him before the Pink Letter.  Again, it requires a suspension of disbelief so huge as to be stupid to think that Bowen Marsh walks out of the Shield Hall, randomly runs into the half dozen or so people he thinks will agree with him, and they all agree to kill Jon.  

I am going to use your post to pontificate. I agree that there was a plot going on before the pink/bastard letter.

I think it is safe to say that the assassination attempt on LC Snow and whether or not a group of men of the NW committed an act of mutiny will continue to be debated for many moons to come.

As to Bowen, I do think Marsh thought he was doing the correct thing. I agree with a few long gone posters that Thorne is involved.

Jon receives a letter that says the lords have been summoned to Barrowton for a couple of reasons. One is to affirm loyalty to the Iron Throne. The other is to celebrate a wedding.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI     Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.

Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.

After the lords congregate at Barrowton the Warden of the North, Roose, changes his mind. Everyone is to travel to WF for the wedding.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III      That prospect did not appear to please Lord Ramsay. "I laid waste to Winterfell, or had you forgotten?" "You will plant a son in her," Roose Bolton said, "but not here. I've decided you shall wed the girl at Winterfell."

When Mel talked to the glamoured Mance she says WE must win the LC’s trust. I find the WE verra interesting.

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I      "The girl," she said. "A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow's sister." Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. "I have seen her in my flames, but only once. We must win the lord commander's trust, and the only way to do that is to save her."

The reader later finds out that it is the Karstark girl fleeing a marriage. When Jon loosed Mance & the women they were supposed to intercept the girl somewhere near Long Lake.

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I"I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever."     "Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?"     "Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail."     

Some posters say Mance while traveling received intel that the wedding was going to take place at Barrowton and he and the women traveled there. I don’t agree because Theon says Mance showed up at the gates of WF.

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell       Lord Manderly had brought musicians from White Harbor, but none were singers, so when Abel turned up at the gates with a lute and six women, he had been made welcome. "Two sisters, two daughters, one wife, and my old mother," the singer claimed, though not one looked like him. "Some dance, some sing, one plays the pipe and one the drums. Good washerwomen too."

The pink/bastard letter arrives at the Wall. Some posters, myself included, think that the letter was tampered with. LC Snow reads the letter to the groups of men gathered in the Shieldhall. After the LC reads the letter the Shieldhall goes mad. Shite! Mance is alive and Stannis is dead according to that letter.

What LC Snow says is he is going to WF and will not ask NW brethren to partake in his adventure.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII     "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

OUCH.

LC Snow does not mention his sister. That is why I keep yapping that Arya can’t be used as a catalyst or argument. LC Snow says in the above quote, “This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out.”

Bolton’s flay.  What was the line in the pink/bastard letter ---- “Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard heart and eat it."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII     I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Whether LC Snow is gonna be a deserter from the NW never comes to fruition because some of his men attempt to kill him. Arya is not part of the equation.

The bigger problem is the letter says Stannis is dead. Mance is a captive. Marsh has reason to turn his cloak and throw In with the mutineers. Marsh who was injured and not quite right. Marsh who was fearful of the changes that were transpiring and rightly concerned about the food stores. Did anyone of the NW know about the deal LC Snow made with the Braavosi banker?

Marsh seemed to believe what he was doing was the correct thing to do. Marsh, like me the reader doesn't know wtf is going on.

 

 

 

[Aegon1FanBoy]

By Law yes since he was violating laws and oaths of the NW, but should the law of man over come the law of nature i.e survival. I mean come on everyone on the wall knows the others are coming They know the Boltons will not help unless removed. This is why i can't blame Jamie from getting rid of aerys. Common sense was needed in this situation not following the rules to your utter destruction. 

[giant snake]

The twists and turns in logic to justify Boomer Marsh, the ultimate rat, are incredible.  I have to say this is the most popcorn thread I have ever seen as a member here.  The sophists of antiquity would be proud of the moral justifications, and the most autistic lawyer of the Chicago mob would be proud of the excuses made to every last letter of the law.

do carry on

[Denam_Pavel]

2 hours ago, giant snake said:

The twists and turns in logic to justify Boomer Marsh, the ultimate rat, are incredible.  I have to say this is the most popcorn thread I have ever seen as a member here.  The sophists of antiquity would be proud of the moral justifications, and the most autistic lawyer of the Chicago mob would be proud of the excuses made to every last letter of the law.

do carry on

Yep, I'mean sure you are right and there are no layers and greater lesson to be learned here at all. Bowen is just coward and bigot and above all else just a lame steward and if he amounted to anything it must be thanks to an abrasive but badass master-at-arms like Thorne. If only Jon could gather up all the cowardly stewards and send them away to a camp, then the inheritely more worthy Rangers and wildling fighting men could go about their business without all this bigotry.

[giant snake]

Indeed, normally the motivations of shitty people are just an extention of their horrible disposition.  They might use a lot of gobbledygook to muddy the waters, and they will cynically exploit the nature of the law or bureaucracy, but at the end of the day it is quite obvious why a wicked man tries to put a knife in the back of a good one.  Boomer Marsh, in particular, is a good example of why cowardice is variously seen as a sin, a crime, or as the worst of human dishonors.  It isn't just self preservation: cowards would literally let humanity end rather than support something that upsets their routine that they have been told is right and acceptable.

The sadism of Ramsay or spoiled nature of Joffrey cause more of a visceral reaction, but the actions of Boomer are much more insidious because they are understated and a more common failing of character.  It's a mundane sort of evil but it's a more destructive kind, in the end.

[The Commentator]

The truth is this.  Bowen "The Terminator" Marsh did what needed to be done:  he put a stop to Jon Snow.  Jon had already made up his mind that his sister was more important to him than his duties, the defense of the kingdom, and his sworn brothers.  Starting a quarrel with the Boltons was never in the best interest of the realm.  The Boltons are no different from any other northern family when it comes down to fighting the White Walkers.  They have no choice but to fight the white walkers to survive.  Leading a wildling pack to attack them will only get more people killed.  People who could help defend against the white walkers will die because of Jon's folly.

For the Watch

[sgtpimenta]

10 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Yep, I'mean sure you are right and there are no layers and greater lesson to be learned here at all. Bowen is just coward and bigot and above all else just a lame steward and if he amounted to anything it must be thanks to an abrasive but badass master-at-arms like Thorne. If only Jon could gather up all the cowardly stewards and send them away to a camp, then the inheritely more worthy Rangers and wildling fighting men could go about their business without all this bigotry.

Being a lame steward does not have anything to do with his mutiny. Janos Slynt was, probably, a ranger, and that didn't prevented his head from being chopped off. Jon Snow was, himself, a steward, prior to his election as Lord Commander.

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The truth is this.  Bowen "The Terminator" Marsh did what needed to be done:  he put a stop to Jon Snow.  Jon had already made up his mind that his sister was more important to him than his duties, the defense of the kingdom, and his sworn brothers.  Starting a quarrel with the Boltons was never in the best interest of the realm.  The Boltons are no different from any other northern family when it comes down to fighting the White Walkers.  They have no choice but to fight the white walkers to survive.  Leading a wildling pack to attack them will only get more people killed.  People who could help defend against the white walkers will die because of Jon's folly.

For the Watch

I grant you, It could be argued that - by attacking Winterfell - Jon would be leaving his post. If one would argue that maybe - just maybe - his brothers would be in the right by removing him from leadership (as Jon declared his intentions of marching south). Maybe one could even accuse him of deserting - to which, faced with such an accusation, Jon could present his defense: that he didn't intended to leave permanently and would be right back; that he was acting in self defense, since Ramsay threatened him (and the NW); etc...

But by gathering daggers in the dark, Bowen give up the chance of doing the right thing. It was not right, because it was coward. It was not right because he didn't followed the proper procedure (trial, rites and so on); it was not right because he did not gave Jon the chance to change his mind (as Jon did with Janos); and it was not right, because it will probably result in chaos and internal struggle that will just help the Others when they show up.

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, there. The trifecta: a coward, a bigot, and an eejit. 

Just so.

[giant snake]

Marsh is weapons grade autism personified.  He would kill somebody because of a technicality even with the army of the apocalypse literally at the gates.

 

Even then he isn't right, when it comes to the greater and more sublime sense of duty.  Most of the old timers understood quite clearly that the Wall and the Watch were not about Wildlings.  That's the same assumption as the very idea of a kingdom existing because it is the only defense against common banditry.  I know there are people even IRL who have that concept of the state, but the Wall was built during an age of myths, and that mythical foe is revealed for all to see.  To Boomer Marsh, it is an objective fact that the very purpose of the wall is being put to use for the first time in thousands of years.  He is a deeply flawed and evil man who refuses to acknowledge that times are different from his youth and has neither the courage nor the sense of duty to adapt to the extraordinary situation and to fulfill the greater purpose of the Watch itself.  This is something that actually happens - bureaucrats squabbling over elements they do understand and putting knives in each other's back as the world crashes down around them.  

 

He is a completely unsympathetic character.  I don't think it's a mistake that they folded his character with Thorne in the show.  No one can argue that Thorne is a reasonable, enlightened, or objective character.  He's a me-first, career minded cynic who uses the rules when it suits him.  Boomer Marsh is slightly more subtle but far more insidious because he is more of an expression of a roach-like survive at all costs person.  He is the type who is content to suck off of the system and maintain his own existence because overreaching (like Thorne) or letting personal feelings interfere are too risky.  Completely odious but much more dangerous to society and even civilization (in times of crisis) - that is Marsh's type.

[cpg2016]

13 hours ago, Aegon1FanBoy said:

By Law yes since he was violating laws and oaths of the NW, but should the law of man over come the law of nature i.e survival. I mean come on everyone on the wall knows the others are coming They know the Boltons will not help unless removed. This is why i can't blame Jamie from getting rid of aerys. Common sense was needed in this situation not following the rules to your utter destruction. 

He wasn't violating any laws or oaths.  Point me to one.  The only oaths Jon swears are in his Night's Watch oath.  He has absolute authority to change any other law he wants (though, as many rulers have found out in history, sometimes traditions are harder to break than laws).

And to your point about Jaime, this also goes to the Dunk and Egg stories.  What are the most important oaths?  Jaime thinks that he swore an oath to serve his King, but he also swore an oath when he became a knight, to protect the innocent and the weak.  Which trumps?  GRRM comes down pretty convincingly on the latter, to my mind.  Breaking his oath to protect his king is 100% justified when mass murder is the alternative.  Standing by and watching Aerys rape and mutilate his wife, and murder his subjects, was wrong, and his brother Kingsguard were wrong too.  Barristan Selmy comes close to the self-realization to in his musings about Duskendale.

For Dunk, the question was whether he was right to strike a royal person who was abusing the commoners.  Technically, his action was wrong, but morally, all agree that he was right.

Bowen Marsh, to his credit, cares about the Night's Watch.  But he cares about maintaining an institution in which him, and those like him, can keep and keep in the future the power and the influence they currently hold.  They're white supremacists during the 60s.  They'll defend an immoral, bigoted system because they benefit from it, and as long as the laws were written by their fellow bigots, they can always claim the protection of the law.  Jon understands that the tradition of seeing the wildlings as the enemy is wrong, much as Jim Crow was wrong (despite being legal), and is working to change it, because unlike in our world, there is an army of ice demons coming to enslave all life in the near future!

[cpg2016]

32 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

I grant you, It could be argued that - by attacking Winterfell - Jon would be leaving his post.

It can't even be argued.  Jon has one job, his post represents one thing - to fight the Others.

He has one important ally in this fight, and only one - Stannis Baratheon.  Every other lord in Westeros knows of the problem (effectively speaking) and is too busy fighting for political scraps to care about the end of life and humanity.  They've had their chance to help - Jon is in a position where Stannis is an active ally and savior, and all others are, at best, neutral bystanders.  He's absolutely legally in the right to do anything necessary to save and even strengthen Stannis' hand, because it simultaneously strengthens his own forces against the Others.

Quote

People who could help defend against the white walkers will die because of Jon's folly.

Right.  These would be, anyone who fights for Stannis, and no one besides.  Roose Bolton and his men made their choice; to betray the one family that might assist Jon and the Watch, and to withhold support, and even threaten, the only defense against the end of all life.  Stannis abandoned his claim, abandoned his (very just) war, to help.

Jon is obligated to help Stannis, because Stannis represents an ally.  The Boltons are not only a threat to the Watch, but therefore to the whole of humanity - their actions have made the triumph of the Others vastly more likely, and thus, wittingly or not, they are to be considered allies of the Others and enemies of the Watch

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Jon is obligated to help Stannis, because Stannis represents an ally.  The Boltons are not only a threat to the Watch, but therefore to the whole of humanity - their actions have made the triumph of the Others vastly more likely, and thus, wittingly or not, they are to be considered allies of the Others and enemies of the Watch

In addition, Melisandre is telling Jon that Stannis is AAR. We know it's wrong. But Jon doesn't know. He can't afford to be wrong and let AAR die without helping.

[giant snake]

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

For Dunk, the question was whether he was right to strike a royal person who was abusing the commoners.  Technically, his action was wrong, but morally, all agree that he was right.

And Baelor, the good Targaryan, agrees with him and stands with him in the trial.  You address the point here, I think:  at the end is a feudal monarchy, not a bureaucratic system of endless regulations and loopholes.  Oaths are of extreme importance because they are part of a society structured on personal loyalty.  The rules of a House are supreme in that land but the Law of the Land is up to the king, and the Watch is above the influence of either because its duty is to mankind itself.  It's a ridiculous excuse for Marsh to use a technicality when he commits betrayal on the edge of war with the Others, especially when they are a fact of existence to all of the Watch.

I forget how good the Hedge Knight books are.  Every time the main series pisses me off, I return to those and remind myself how GRRM really can write a damn good story and good characters when he isn't wasting his time.

 

I'm going to laugh my ass off when the next book arrives in 2040 and we all discover that Marsh was simply paid off by an agent working with a Bolton or a Lannister.  

[Denam_Pavel]

3 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

I grant you, It could be argued that - by attacking Winterfell - Jon would be leaving his post. If one would argue that maybe - just maybe - his brothers would be in the right by removing him from leadership (as Jon declared his intentions of marching south). Maybe one could even accuse him of deserting - to which, faced with such an accusation, Jon could present his defense: that he didn't intended to leave permanently and would be right back; that he was acting in self defense, since Ramsay threatened him (and the NW); etc...

But by gathering daggers in the dark, Bowen give up the chance of doing the right thing. It was not right, because it was coward. It was not right because he didn't followed the proper procedure (trial, rites and so on); it was not right because he did not gave Jon the chance to change his mind (as Jon did with Janos); and it was not right, because it will probably result in chaos and internal struggle that will just help the Others when they show up.

Just so.

Once Ramsay was defeated, Mance would go back to  leading the Wildlings that Jon delivered onto him. Because Mance is alive somehow, thanks to to Jon. And Jon doesn't even try to sell the Watch on the laughable pipedream that they'd march all  the way back through the blizzards to help them at that point. As for right's and procedure, Jon is Lord Commander through a abandonment of procedure forced upon the Watch by Stannis who said enough is enough with these elections, the Watch didn't get a change to rethink their idea of making Jon LC that Sam tricked them into. And then Jon tore down everything the Watch had stood for for thousands for years. (arguably since the beginning, despite Jon's words Brandon the Builder declared himself King of the North, the Wall obviously serving as his northern border and the people on the other side of it unwelcome due to an unwillingness to kneel, he had his own goals and interests beyond killing undead, no different from Bowen and Jon and completely unlike what Jon aspires to be like).

[Denam_Pavel]

3 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

Being a lame steward does not have anything to do with his mutiny. Janos Slynt was, probably, a ranger, and that didn't prevented his head from being chopped off. Jon Snow was, himself, a steward, prior to his election as Lord Commander.

Jon Snow is the kind of steward that carries Valyrian steel swords on their backs and goes on rangings anyway. Jon recanted that worthy men that the Watch lost that the likes of Bowen can't measure up to, with the exception of Aemon they were all fighting men. Jon watched Tyrion become more popular then Thorne at Castle Black in days, hours even but when set next to some who the Watch liked and knew (unlike Jon)  but not wasn't much for valor to Jon Thorne seemed the more dangerous. If Jon was playing the political game against Thorne he'd be laughing all the way to bank. Bowen is the guy that had to stand up and tell people to vote for Slynt the outsider instead of him. Much like Jon needed Malister and Pyke. And unlike those two, Bowen actually meant it. But Jon didn't see this as a strength or a threat. Cause Bowen is a coward when it comes to martial matters. He didn't learn what Aemon taught him at all.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

7 hours ago, giant snake said:

Indeed, normally the motivations of shitty people are just an extention of their horrible disposition.  They might use a lot of gobbledygook to muddy the waters, and they will cynically exploit the nature of the law or bureaucracy, but at the end of the day it is quite obvious why a wicked man tries to put a knife in the back of a good one.  Boomer Marsh, in particular, is a good example of why cowardice is variously seen as a sin, a crime, or as the worst of human dishonors.  It isn't just self preservation: cowards would literally let humanity end rather than support something that upsets their routine that they have been told is right and acceptable.

Comma

5 hours ago, giant snake said:

Boomer Marsh is slightly more subtle but far more insidious because he is more of an expression of a roach-like survive at all costs person.  He is the type who is content to suck off of the system and maintain his own existence because overreaching (like Thorne) or letting personal feelings interfere are too risky.  Completely odious but much more dangerous to society and even civilization (in times of crisis) - that is Marsh's type.

And

4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

They're white supremacists during the 60s.  They'll defend an immoral, bigoted system because they benefit from it, and as long as the laws were written by their fellow bigots, they can always claim the protection of the law.  Jon understands that the tradition of seeing the wildlings as the enemy is wrong, much as Jim Crow was wrong (despite being legal), and is working to change it, because unlike in our world, there is an army of ice demons coming to enslave all life in the near future!

This thread is now over. No one on the opposing side is capable of arguing on this level. They will still post some bullshit, but seriously, you guys killed it. 

That was some black belt shit right there. 

Bravo, friends.