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ERRI8013

Coming back from the dead should change characters (Jon Snow)

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Hi, this post is about Jon's character and actions up to Episode 3.

Once Martin said something like “Gandalf felt like a cheat. Coming back from the dead should change characters”.

We can see in the books how lady Stoneheart is different from Catelyn Tully and we have also some interesting lines about (for example “She don't speak. You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers”) and also in some way Dondarrion (a character, in any case, much smaller than the others we are talking about).

From the moment Jon was back from death, I would have been expecting something significantly changed in his character. Now, maybe I’m not paying enough attention, but he looks almost the same to me.

Am I missing anything? Is anybody else unhappy about this lack of mutation?

Edited by ERRI8013

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17 minutes ago, ERRI8013 said:

Hi, this post is about Jon's character and actions up to Episode 3.

Once Martin said something like “Gandalf felt like a cheat. Coming back from the dead should change characters”.

We can see in the books how lady Stoneheart is different from Catelyn Tully and we have also some interesting lines about (for example “She don't speak. You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers”) and also in some way Dondarrion (a character, in any case, much smaller than the others we are talking about).

From the moment Jon was back from death, I would have been expecting something significantly changed in his character. Now, maybe I’m not paying enough attention, but he looks almost the same to me.

Am I missing anything? Is anybody else unhappy about this lack of mutation?

Lady Stoneheart had been butchered and was dead quite a while before being resurrected. Dondarrion died many times. Jon died once and was resurrected not long after he died, so visually, it is to be expected that his body doesn't look much different. Although, I don't know whether it is just me, but I do think there is a paler glow to his face than before.

We can only hope that over time, some more signs of how death effected him come out, but since he has been resurrected for a whole season and more and we haven't seen much difference, I am not hopeful. The fact Jon has adapted so easily to being resurrected doesn't sit right with me and I doubt it does with many others.

Presumably Jon is going to be resurrected in WoW and I firmly believe GRRM is going to do a much better job of showing the differences in Jon before and after he died and came back to life than D&D have done in the show.

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2 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

Am I missing anything? Is anybody else unhappy about this lack of mutation?

Since Beric was resurrected he has only said that he feels different but he has stuck to doing everything he was doing before he was killed (brotherhood without banners).  The show has shown that "you lose a bit of yourself every time you are resurrected" but hasn't actually shown any changes outside of a quick dialogue mention. So, I am assuming if Dany ever sees Jon naked she'll see the scares, which will lead to a convo about his death, which will then have him describe possibly feeling less or different from dying. Outside of that the book will be our only hope of actually seeing a change discussed. 

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21 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

Since Beric was resurrected he has only said that he feels different but he has stuck to doing everything he was doing before he was killed (brotherhood without banners).  The show has shown that "you lose a bit of yourself every time you are resurrected" but hasn't actually shown any changes outside of a quick dialogue mention. (...) 

I do not fully agree on what you say about Beric. As far as I remember (tell me if I'm wrong), it seems to Arya in A Storm of Swords that the man does not sleep or eat anymore. He also started forgetting things about Allyria or his castle.

Anyway, my main issue is the conflict I see between Martin’s words (“Gandalf felt like a cheat. Coming back from the dead should change characters”) and the way Jon is acting after coming back from the dead.

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46 minutes ago, ERRI8013 said:

I do not fully agree on what you say about Beric. As far as I remember (tell me if I'm wrong), it seems to Arya in A Storm of Swords that the man does not sleep or eat anymore. He also started forgetting things about Allyria or his castle.

Anyway, my main issue is the conflict I see between Martin’s words (“Gandalf felt like a cheat. Coming back from the dead should change characters”) and the way Jon is acting after coming back from the dead.

I thought those were book statements.  The only convos I remember from the show is him continually saying the lord of light, the lord of light isn't done with "insert name," something about the great war, look into the light, or that he feels hollow from the amount of times he died or something to that extent.  I don't remember him going much into detail on the show but I may be wrong.  

Agreed on the main issue but idk if it depends, like its been said, on how long you were dead for.  Obviously death/resurrection should change you but I don't think the show is ever going to really go into that deeply.

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54 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The book sets it up so that Jons spirit is preserved in Ghost while his body is dead.  This allows him to retain his memories etc, but should have made him more wolfish.

That's exactly what I was expecting...

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The book sets it up so that Jons spirit is preserved in Ghost while his body is dead.  This allows him to retain his memories etc, but should have made him more wolfish.

 

6 minutes ago, ERRI8013 said:

That's exactly what I was expecting...

Have they covered any of that in the show? I just remember when Bran was out and we were seeing things through Summer coming to his bed and then he woke up. Other then that I don't remember anything in the show warging.

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25 minutes ago, ERRI8013 said:

That's exactly what I was expecting...

 

17 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

 

Have they covered any of that in the show? I just remember when Bran was out and we were seeing things through Summer coming to his bed and then he woke up. Other then that I don't remember anything in the show warging.

I think they just skipped over the whole thing.

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Yeah, I feel a bit cheated on. Following the changes of Beric and LSH, I was expecting a change too. If the warging and soul-preserving thing happens in the books, it's hard to predict how it will affect Jon's character (I suppose that less than a real death) but I expect at least something.

But hey, Jon is a fan favorite, we can't change him, right?

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its hard to actually see the changes since in the books we have the PoV that describes fully in his head what he is seeing or feeling.. i think that will be the pivotal change between the books and the show, in the books we will see in full how the death experience affected jon since we are inside his head, in the show, other than Beric kind of dialog, i dont see much happening, its not like he will start to rot all of sudden, and as others have pointed out, the three deaths (LSH, Beric and Jon) being different, Catelyn's corpse floated along the trident for three days before Nym and the BwB found her, Beric has died many times, and each time he comes back with a little bit less of himself, and Jon is taking a loophole since apparently he will be spending his dead time inside of ghost, so his change should be different from beric's, 

in conclusion, i think that in the show we will only see Jon brooding over the fact and putting his best trauma face everytime anyone mentions his death

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Pretty sure this was mentioned by Beric that every time he comes back he is missing a part of himself. His memories etc. 

jon has only come back once so maybe he hasn't noticed the missing bits yet. 

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9 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

Hi, this post is about Jon's character and actions up to Episode 3.

Once Martin said something like “Gandalf felt like a cheat. Coming back from the dead should change characters”.

We can see in the books how lady Stoneheart is different from Catelyn Tully and we have also some interesting lines about (for example “She don't speak. You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers”) and also in some way Dondarrion (a character, in any case, much smaller than the others we are talking about).

From the moment Jon was back from death, I would have been expecting something significantly changed in his character. Now, maybe I’m not paying enough attention, but he looks almost the same to me.

Am I missing anything? Is anybody else unhappy about this lack of mutation?

You're not missing anything.  David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have changed the story.  They gave Jon plot armor.  What we are watching is not George Martin's plot.    

As a Jon-hater, yes, I am very unhappy about the fact that Jon came back unscathed and unharmed from death.  That is cheating.  

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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14 hours ago, ERRI8013 said:

Anyway, my main issue is the conflict I see between Martin’s words (“Gandalf felt like a cheat. Coming back from the dead should change characters”) and the way Jon is acting after coming back from the dead.

You see conflict because you are confusing/merging show-Jon with book-Jon. They are not the same. Everything Martin says would  have relevance mostly in book characters. Almost all show characters are different of their original book counterparts, and the story has been also  very  simplified in the show.

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9 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

You see conflict because you are confusing/merging show-Jon with book-Jon. They are not the same. Everything Martin says would  have relevance mostly in book characters. Almost all show characters are different of their original book counterparts, and the story has been also  very  simplified in the show.

Yeah, I think you're right... but it's sad... :-(

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17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You're not missing anything.  David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have changed the story.  They gave Jon plot armor.  What we are watching is not George Martin's plot.    

As a Jon-hater, yes, I am very unhappy about the fact that Jon came back unscathed and unharmed from death.  That is cheating.  

Martin is going to have to cheat himself.  Unless Jon isn't a POV character anymore, he's going to have to reflect the fact that he's undead, assuming he dies, which I now do.   He can make him darker or harder, but that's not much of a change, and if he has no internal thoughts, then he won't be a POV character and the author has undercut his story...who cares when the zombie finds out about his parents?  

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Does Jon still breathe?  Is his body physically normal?  Can he have sex, father future Starks or Targaryens or Rulers in The North?  

Though I imagine the sexual question will be answered one night this season or next, with a smiling Daenerys waking up next to Jon in a bed or a pile of furs...(predictable, but it is the show).

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Despite Martin's criticism of Gandalf's resurrection, Beric Dondarrion came back the same, more or less. Sure, he's lost pieces of his memory, but from what we know about him, his personality has remained intact. He is still a protector of the smallfolk, and this is after being raised from the dead six times. Why do people expect Jon to have a drastic change and turn darker after being resurrected once?

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