R+L=A

[Dragonsbone]

2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Both Ned and Young Griff eye color changes. Lyanna has the same blood as Ned thus this trait was passed to Aegon.

LOL. This is just...nothing. Literally nothing. It is hard to find other theories that are based on such a weak argument as this. There are millions of people in the world who's eye colour seem to change, depending on the light that hits the eyes. Ned's and fAegons eye colour is not even the same! You just gave...well actually you gave nothing to prove. It is not even a hint. It is the same category as if both of them would be about the same size. 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Both Ned and Young Griff eye color changes. Lyanna has the same blood as Ned thus this trait was passed to Aegon.

Hmmm, when exactly do Ned's eyes change color? The last time I heard this claim was by those youtubers Order/Greenhand, and they are incorrect, which is an injustice to one of the saddest parts of the story.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V

One of the silent sisters turned down the banner.

Bones, Catelyn thought. This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart, but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her. The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire, but one skull looks much like another, and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone. They gave his eyes to crows, she remembered.

Catelyn turned away. "That is not his sword."

This is not an actual eye color change, just as eye color not actually changing based on different clothing or light is not actual eye color changing. In this sad scene with Catelyn and Ned's bones, she is referring to Ned's emotions, as in, Eddard was not a flat one-note character. His moods changed, as his eyes reflect that, as like when Bran describes Ned having to "put on his lord's face". That doesn't mean Eddard is a faceless man. GRRM was using that soft fog/hard stone idiom.

2 hours ago, Faera said:

Still, after fourteen years of raising Jon alongside Robb, he is his son. Just as Ned wouldn't stop being Jon's father because of who his biological parents might be.

This is a very true statement. Jon is Ned's son, no matter what. Just as Ned is Jon's father, no matter what.

This is a theme that GRRM uses and explores this dynamic with many of his characters in this series. The difference between having the life donor, as opposed to the father figure/true parent. It happens with Jon, Sansa, Daenerys, Jaime & Tyrion, (coincidentally the only Lannister child who wants to be like the father, Cersei, is called Tywin with teats, and she is going mad).

[Black Dragons]

On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:42 AM, Ser Insight said:

Ive seen people disagree with me and thats fine but no one has provided concrete evidence for R+L=J or Jon's parentage overall. I'd love to be convinced now prove it

ps I don't disagree with you the fact is in the books it is R+L=D and people don't want to see the evidence point to this fact. All they want to see Jon is King of all Westeros but he is not  (He is the King of North) because he is son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne end of story.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

 

4 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Both Ned and Young Griff eye color changes. Lyanna has the same blood as Ned thus this trait was passed to Aegon.

 

I've said in the OP Aegon thinks he's the true son of Rhaegar and Elia. Connington was most likely lied to by Varys about the truth of this Aegon. The fact Ned stumbled across Lyanna can't get thrown out the window. Someone had to tell me to head in that direction. Please note that by the time ADWD starts it's the year 300 the "real Aegon" would be 18/19 not 15/16 which Tyrion puts his age at drastic difference between the two.

Can we agree the story centralized around  Ned's kids? And we see a few times where Robb and Jon are put in a the same position as Ned. Robb not accepted his marriage with the Freys cost him his life. If Ned didn't marry Cat he too would be dead. The baby swap between Ned and Ashara parallels that of Jon and Gilly (both a baby with Dayne blood)

 Also when Varys performs the most epic move that being a double homicide of pycelle and Kevin Lannister. He tells Kevin Aegon is alive. Why lie to a dying man?

Which is one of the main reasons why Young Griff isn't whom he claims or believes himself to be. Even so, this in no way connects him to Ned.

[Black Dragons]

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:23 PM, Ser Insight said:

Aegon is legit your all blinded with R+L=J

I believe that Aegon is real too with all war going around them would be smart  move to take the next heir that is Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen's baby out of harm way is Varys is smart person.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

30 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

ps I don't disagree with you the fact is in the books it is R+L=D and people don't want to see the evidence point to this fact. All they want to see Jon is King of all Westeros but he is not  (He is the King of North) because he is son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne end of story.

Uhm, no.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Aegon is virtually the same person as Rhaegar. Their both described ass extremely good looking. Both are extremely good everything they do. Where they differ is Aegon prefers swords to books whereas Rhaegar preferred books to swords. Also as i stated in my OP Jon has no dragon dreams or anything of the type that connect him to being a Targaryen. He is mostly connected to "Dawn" that is because he is the sword of the morning come again...

[Ygrain]

 

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

All they want to see Jon is King of all Westeros but he is not 

Except that people keep figuring out RLJ even if they don't grasp the possibility of him being legit, and as Rhaegar's bastard, he's not a king of anything.

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

he is son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne end of story.

The pinnacle of argumentation indeed. And Jon's parentage in this case is too dangerous to share even with the loved and trusted ones because....?

30 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

I believe that Aegon is real too with all war going around them would be smart  move to take the next heir that is Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen's baby out of harm way is Varys is smart person.

Being smart =/= acting in the best interest of House Targaryen.

Besides, your smart person possessed the means to get both children to safety along with their mother. He didn't. That alone should tell you something about his intentions.

[Ygrain]

26 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Aegon is virtually the same person as Rhaegar. Their both described ass extremely good looking. Both are extremely good everything they do.

So, by this logic, every two persons who are smart and good-looking, must be a father and a son? 

Plus, where does it say that Aegon is extremely good at something? He is certainly well-trained and taught, but I don't recall Tyrion noting any spark of genius, and he is certainly not good at cyvasse.

26 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Where they differ is Aegon prefers swords to books whereas Rhaegar preferred books to swords. Also as i stated in my OP Jon has no dragon dreams or anything of the type that connect him to being a Targaryen. 

So, the dreams of the kings of winter telling him that he doesn't belong among the Starks, or seeing himself defending the Wall wearing an armour of black ice and wielding a red flaming sword don't count?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

So, the dreams of the kings of winter telling him that he doesn't belong among the Starks, or seeing himself defending the Wall wearing an armour of black ice and wielding a red flaming sword don't count?

This, or my favorite one, not a dream, but still . . .

Quote

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. (Jon VIII, Dance)

 

[LynnS]

 

55 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

This, or my favorite one, not a dream, but still . . .

The recurring dream is interesting, each time he advances further in the crypts.  He seems to be denying that he is a Stark because the truth is worse than any crow dream that Bran might have.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

What did Ned's ghost tell Bran about Jon? 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark .

Jon thinks that Ned is his father.  How disturbing will it be to learn that Ned's sister is his mother?  Would he be able to deny that he is a Stark any longer; would his crutch slip?  Would he fall to his knees in front of Lyanna's statue? Jon would believe that not only is he a bastard but a bastard born of incest.  A bastard born of incest could never be acknowledged as a Stark and would never be welcomed in the feasting hall as far as Jon is concerned.

[Ygrain]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

The recurring dream is interesting, each time he advances further in the crypts.  He seems to be denying that he is a Stark because the truth is worse than any crow dream that Bran might have.

What did Ned's ghost tell Bran about Jon? 

Jon thinks that Ned is his father.  How disturbing will it be to learn that Ned's sister is his mother?  Would he be able to deny that he is a Stark any longer; would his crutch slip?  Would he fall to his knees in front of Lyanna's statue? Jon would believe that not only is he a bastard but a bastard born of incest.  A bastard born of incest could never be acknowledged as a Stark and would never be welcomed in the feasting hall as far as Jon is concerned.

And why would Jon learn only half the truth?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

So, by this logic, every two persons who are smart and good-looking, must be a father and a son? 

Plus, where does it say that Aegon is extremely good at something? He is certainly well-trained and taught, but I don't recall Tyrion noting any spark of genius, and he is certainly not good at cyvasse.

So, the dreams of the kings of winter telling him that he doesn't belong among the Starks, or seeing himself defending the Wall wearing an armour of black ice and wielding a red flaming sword don't count?

Tyrion points out that he can have any maiden in the kingdom so yes hes extremely good looking

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Tyrion points out that he can have any maiden in the kingdom so yes hes extremely good looking

LOL!

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Tyrion points out that he can have any maiden in the kingdom so yes hes extremely good looking

Extremely good-looking =/= extremely good at doing something. Is Tyrion amazed by Aegon's intellect?

Loras Tyrell was fawned over mightily, does it make him Rhaegar's son, too?

Your task would be easier if JonCon thought that Aegon was growing into Rhaegar's spitting image, but that is not the case; in fact, we know that the shade of Aegon's eyes is not the same as Rhaegar's. Aegon's identity relies solely on the word of Varys, and that is simply not enough, because no details in the story corroborate the version of the "Pisswater Prince". On the contrary, the story doesn't fit in very well with the account of the Sack: Elia clings to the substitute while her own daughter is left alone, and it requires Varys either completely unaware of the wildfire plot (why bother with a substitute if you know that the whole place would be toast), or omniscient (he knew that Jaime would break his vow and prevent the burning). There is also a huge difference between swapping a baby several months old, and a one-year-old toddler - the toddler might look the same but won't behave the same, and masking that would require the cooperation of all the personnel taking care of Aegon. The chances of none of them ever speaking is very low, so there should be some gossip fluctuating lending credence to Varys' story, yet there is none, and neither do we get any mention of all such servants murdered in the Sack that might explain the silence.

Finally, there is the "mummer's dragon", and it is not just a matter of possession of Varys aka a former mummer. It is a description of a vision showing a cloth dragon on poles - an imitation of a dragon. If Aegon is not this fake dragon, then whom?

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The recurring dream is interesting, each time he advances further in the crypts.  He seems to be denying that he is a Stark because the truth is worse than any crow dream that Bran might have.

He denies being a Stark because he's a bastard. But Jon denies a lot of things. Mel tells him he has power that he needs to embrace and Varamyr thinks Jon is a powerful warg but doesn't embrace it. This is just another thing, imo.

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What did Ned's ghost tell Bran about Jon?

The truth about Jon, I'm assuming. And Bran might deliver that when the time comes. Bran has been able to reach out to Jon through Ghost as early as ACOK when he was hiding out in the crypts. 

54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon thinks that Ned is his father.  How disturbing will it be to learn that Ned's sister is his mother?  Would he be able to deny that he is a Stark any longer; would his crutch slip?  Would he fall to his knees in front of Lyanna's statue? Jon would believe that not only is he a bastard but a bastard born of incest.  A bastard born of incest could never be acknowledged as a Stark and would never be welcomed in the feasting hall as far as Jon is concerned.

My take on the book quote is that it's reminiscent of the Red Wedding, with the drums beating. 

I don't see why Jon would find out half a truth, but I also know that you think Jon's parents are not R and L, so I think the discussion is moot and will go in circles. I sincerely doubt that Jon would jump to the conclusion that Lyanna and Ned boinked and that he is the product of that. 

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

He denies being a Stark because he's a bastard. But Jon denies a lot of things. Mel tells him he has power that he needs to embrace and Varamyr thinks Jon is a powerful warg but doesn't embrace it. This is just another thing, imo.

The truth about Jon, I'm assuming. And Bran might deliver that when the time comes. Bran has been able to reach out to Jon through Ghost as early as ACOK when he was hiding out in the crypts. 

My take on the book quote is that it's reminiscent of the Red Wedding, with the drums beating. 

I don't see why Jon would find out half a truth, but I also know that you think Jon's parents are not R and L, so I think the discussion is moot and will go in circles. I sincerely doubt that Jon would jump to the conclusion that Lyanna and Ned boinked and that he is the product of that. 

Yes, there is some of the red wedding bleeding into this dream; but dreams are not literal or what they seem.  A literal crutch is an emotional crutch.  His bastardy is a crutch; a means for denying that he is a son of Winterfell. I'm not suggesting that Jon is a product of incest.  i don't think that's so.  I do think Lyanna is his mother and for all intents and purposes, as far as Jon knows, Ned is his father.  I'm not making an argument for or against RLJ either.   Everything isn't predicated on RLJ or that the discussion is moot if RLJ isn't the underlying assumption.  I'm just asking you to look at this dream in light of what Jon knows about himself or thinks of himself as a bastard.  Or what Bran might know and show Jon in a dream.

Jon once again finds himself in the crypts led by a grey direwolf with golden eyes.  That matches the description of Summer.  To me the obvious destination is Lyanna's statue since this is the thing that Jon wants to know most about himself.  Who is his mother?  I think Bran knows but like Jon thinks that Ned is Jon's father.  This is why the dream of Ned's Ghost is so disturbing.  

I'm speculating that the dream of crypts is about learning the identity of his mother and Jon's reaction to learning that Lyanna is his mother while thinking that Ned is his father.  This would be a devastating blow to Jon psychologically.  He still wouldn't know the true identity of his father.  It seems to me that Martin has placed a statue of Lyanna in the crypts for a reason and that it will come into play as a reveal

We'll see.  But you heard it here first.  LOL

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

There is also a huge difference between swapping a baby several months old, and a one-year-old toddler - the toddler might look the same but won't behave the same, and masking that would require the cooperation of all the personnel taking care of Aegon.

Elia's baby was at least 21 months old, when it was either killed by the Mountain, or kidnapped by Varys.

Little Aegon was already born during events at Harrenhal. Between Tournament and Lyanna's kidnapping nearly a year, or a year passed. When Elia gave birth to Rhaenys, she was bedridden for 6 months, and after birth of Aegon, she nearly died. And also after second childbirth, she and Rhaegar didn't went to KL, to present their son to Aerys, how they did after birth of Rhaenys. Thus it's very likely that between date of Aegon's birth, and date of Tournament, at least several months passed. Thus by the time of Lyanna's kidnapping that baby DEFINITELY was a year old, or even older. Add to that 9 months of Lyanna's pregnacy.

For the baby that Varys gave to Jon Con, to pass as Elia's Aegon, it was supposed to be 12+9=21 months old, MINIMUM 21 months old.

When Lyanna's baby was newborn, Elia's baby was 21+ months old. So there's no way that one of them could pass as the other's double.

And Dany is even younger than Elia's baby or Lyanna's baby. Aerys and Rhaella conceived their last child, one day prior her departure to Dragonstone, with Viserys, that was shortly prior death of Rhaegar. So by that time Lyanna was already heavily pregnant. 

@Ser Insight in his/her theory, totally disregarded age differences between babies of Elia, Lyanna and Rhaella. None of those babies can't be passed as the other one of them.

Also if Ashara did had a baby, it's age was between Elia's and Lyanna's. Thus that baby can't be Jon, can't be fAegon, and can't be Dany.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

For the baby that Varys gave to Jon Con, to pass as Elia's Aegon, it was supposed to be 12+9=21 months old, MINIMUM 21 months old.

Varys wouldn't have any problem finding a babe of suitable age and appearance to swap out.  After all, he traffics in children.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, there is some of the red wedding bleeding into this dream; but dreams are not literal or what they seem.  A literal crutch is an emotional crutch.  His bastardy is a crutch; a means for denying that he is a son of Winterfell. I'm not suggesting that Jon is a product of incest.  i don't think that's so. 

I agree with this. And the whole incest part, I've just read a few things about this that everything is seeping through. I thought you were making 180, or something.