R+L=A

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Ygrain thanks for posting but point out the city was surrounded by Lannister's men they will looking two children a girl and baby. Varys or Elia Martell had to choice ONE.  Sophia Choice look for that meaning.

Helaena's choice, in fact, and the situation is not the same in the least. The Lannisters would be looking - so what if they don't find Elia and her children, and even Varys himself? They escaped, fullstop. Somehow. Just like Willem Darry escaped with Viserys and Dany.

Not to mention that Aerys' plan was to burn KL, including the keep, and it was Jaime, not Varys, who prevented that. Meaning, the escape wouldn't have been noticed, anyway, until Elia and her children reappeared in DS or Dorne or elsewhere. 

 

11 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Sir or Miss you need read the books there is NO way Jon Snow is that baby in the tower.

You're riding a high horse, lady. It will hurt when you fall down. But by all means, please, enlighten us.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're riding a high horse, lady. It will hurt when you fall down. But by all means, please, enlighten us.

LOL. Pride comes before a fall, indeed.

If Elia knew that the baby was not Aegon then why didn't she run to comfort and try to protect Rhaenys instead? I'm sure she was a nice person and all who didn't want leave the baby alone, however Rhaenys was her flesh and blood that she raised and loved. Seems to me that she would have chosen to go to Rhaenys instead of comforting a babe that was not her own. 

[Faera]

Oh, this thread again.

Yeah... I concur with the last few posts. If someone (doesn’t have to be OP; anybody!) has a scrap evidence from the books for this, by all means post it. Oh, and try to do it without starting the theory with a, “RLJ is wrong and there’s no evidence for it” before proceeding to present their own theory without evidence.

So, don’t beat about the bush. We’ve been waiting so long. 

Otherwise, what else is there to discuss? 

PS: Why are people talking about Elia’s baby and whether there was a swap? What does that have to do with Lyanna’s baby? Is the argument that one could be passed off as the other or something? Because we already established they couldn’t—Aegon would have been a toddler, Lyanna’s baby (who, yes, I believe was Jon) a newborn. Surely the whole premise of this a RLA theory, as daft and convoluted as it is, is that the real Aegon (Elia’s son) really did get his skill caved in by the Mountain and Young Griff is Lyanna’s baby, (which he totally isn’t, IMO.)

[Bloodraven's Spider]

On 12/20/2017 at 5:41 AM, Faera said:

Oh, this thread again.

Yeah... I concur with the last few posts. If someone (doesn’t have to be OP; anybody!) has a scrap evidence from the books for this, by all means post it. Oh, and try to do it without starting the theory with a, “RLJ is wrong and there’s no evidence for it” before proceeding to present their own theory without evidence.

So, don’t beat about the bush. We’ve been waiting so long. 

Otherwise, what else is there to discuss? 

PS: Why are people talking about Elia’s baby and whether there was a swap? What does that have to do with Lyanna’s baby? Is the argument that one could be passed off as the other or something? Because we already established they couldn’t—Aegon would have been a toddler, Lyanna’s baby (who, yes, I believe was Jon) a newborn. Surely the whole premise of this a RLA theory, as daft and convoluted as it is, is that the real Aegon (Elia’s son) really did get his skill caved in by the Mountain and Young Griff is Lyanna’s baby, (which he totally isn’t, IMO.)

Baby steps... Firstly Ned and Ashara had a romantic relationship based on the information we are given from Ned Dayne the current lord of Starfall. Until you have accepted this fact we cant progress further.

[Faera]

22 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Baby steps... Firstly Ned and Ashara had a romantic relationship based on the information we are given from Ned Dayne the current lord of Starfall. Until you have accepted this fact we cant progress further.

While I would debate that based on it being second-hand evidence, fine. I'll entertain the idea for the sake of you finally providing some evidence for RLA.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

40 minutes ago, Faera said:

While I would debate that based on it being second-hand evidence, fine. I'll entertain the idea for the sake of you finally providing some evidence for RLA.

How is "second-hand" evidence as opposed to any of the supposed "first-hand" evidence for R+L=J

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

How is "second-hand" evidence as opposed to any of the supposed "first-hand" evidence for R+L=J

Because, we have Barristan Selmy whom was there, actually at the tourney of Harrenhal, we're Edrics claims Ned & Ashara fell in love. Harwin was around at the time and all he says is that it "might be true", there aren't any first hand accounts to support it. While we do have first hand accounts of Rhaegar loving Lyanna, we have Ned himself and his first hand account of the fight at the Tower Of Joy, which again lends to support to a newborn child being present with Lyanna as well. And even with Edrics claim, he still believes that Jon is the son of "Wylla", not Ashara Dayne. Its certainly NOT a fact that Ned & Ashara had a romantic relationship. I'd still like to see some textual evidence presented. I'm still waiting for that.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

How is "second-hand" evidence as opposed to any of the supposed "first-hand" evidence for R+L=J

See, every account we get from someone who wasn't there (such as: Edric says that Aunt Allyria says...) is, by definition, second-hand - or, possibly, worse (we don't know if even Allyria was there herself - if not, then it'll be a third-hand account or worse). Now you picked the dictionary as your enemy. Don't, you shall not win.

And Edric's account, such as it is, was "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal" - which isn't a "romantic relationship" yet. Could be that they fell in love but nothing happened.

Moving on: the challenge was "OK, let's give you this romantic relationship, what else you got?". Well, what else you got?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Because, we have Barristan Selmy whom was there, actually at the tourney of Harrenhal, we're Edrics claims Ned & Ashara fell in love. Harwin was around at the time and all he says is that it "might be true", there aren't any first hand accounts to support it. While we do have first hand accounts of Rhaegar loving Lyanna, we have Ned himself and his first hand account of the fight at the Tower Of Joy, which again lends to support to a newborn child being present with Lyanna as well. And even with Edrics claim, he still believes that Jon is the son of "Wylla", not Ashara Dayne. Its certainly NOT a fact that Ned & Ashara had a romantic relationship. I'd still like to see some textual evidence presented. I'm still waiting for that.

Where is first hand evidence of Rhaegar loving Lyanna? I've yet to receive any evidence of their relationship. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

25 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Where is first hand evidence of Rhaegar loving Lyanna? I've yet to receive any evidence of their relationship. 

Errr, Barristan Selmy....Ned's own accounts, as I've posted on page three, imply there's more to the story than Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna.  If you have yet to see any evidence of Rhaegar loving Lyanna, then sorry to say, but you've only looked in to whatever fits your narrative. We're still waiting for you to post some textual evidence to support your many theories, like Jon being Ned's only true child.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Errr, Barristan Selmy....Ned's own accounts, as I've posted on page three, imply there's more to the story than Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna. 

When did Barristan ever see Rhaegar and Lyanna together?  All he says is that Rhaegar loved his lady and this is projection on Barristan's part.  This comes from the Tourney at Harrenhal where Rhaegar gives Lyanna the rose crown.  In Barristan's mind, this is the only reason for giving the crown because that's the way he felt about Ashara.  Barristan was not one of Rhaegar's inside circle.  So how would he know what Rhaegar thought of Lyanna.  

Martin is very specific in his choice of words.  Ned calls the rose crown, the queen of beauty's laurel and not the queen of love and beauty's laurel.  That's a deliberate omission on Martin's part.  Ned is the one in the know, not Barristan.  Not only does Rhaegar not give Lyanna full honors; he places the crown on her lap from the end of his lance, instead of placing it on her head... a somewhat antagonistic gesture on his part. He doesn't even come close enough to hand it to her.  That's not the gesture of someone who is smitten with love.

So yes, people are reading what they want into it.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When did Barristan ever see Rhaegar and Lyanna together? All he says is that Rhaegar loved his lady and this is projection on Barristan's part.  This comes from the Tourney at Harrenhal where Rhaegar gives Lyanna the rose crown.  In Barristan's mind, this is the only reason for giving the crown because that's the way he felt about Ashara.  Barristan was not one of Rhaegar's inside circle.  So how would he know what Rhaegar thought of Lyanna.  

Martin is very specific in his choice of words.  Ned calls the rose crown, the queen of beauty's laurel and not the queen of love and beauty's laurel.  That's a deliberate omission on Martin's part.  Ned is the one in the know, not Barristan.  Not only does Rhaegar not give Lyanna full honors; he places the crown on her lap from the end of his lance, instead of placing it on her head... a somewhat antagonistic gesture on his part. He doesn't even come close enough to hand it to her.  That's not the gesture of someone who is smitten with love.

So yes, people are reading what they want into it.

That's what I said, I didn't mention him saying he saw them together, like at all. "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it", this isn't his projection based solely on Harrenhal, he's referring to the war and a reasoning behind it, he was there, he was a part of the Targaryen Kingsguard and fought with Rhaegar, he knows why Rhaegar fought and why these things happened, it's not just what he saw from Harrenhal  As far as the second bolded, yeah, the text implies that wasn't the case at all, the text mentions nothing of Rhaegar attempting to disrespect Lyanna by how he placed the crown or any of that, it's not just Ned, but more than once it's stated Rhaegar crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty, not the Queen of Beauty. Thats your sole interpretation of the text and what Martin meant. But fact is, that was the title given to the recipient of the winter rose crown, The Queen Of Love And Beauty, that can't be disputed. That's what Lyanna was crowned as, by Rhaegar. It's what Ashara would've been crowned as by Barristan had he defeated Rhaegar in the joust. Exception can't be given in the case of Lyanna merely because you want it to. But the Queen Of Love And Beauty itself is just a title, if it was as you interpret, why didn't he just give it to his wife?

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

That's what I said, I didn't mention him saying he saw them together, like at all. "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it", this isn't his projection based solely on Harrenhal, he's referring to the war and a reasoning behind it, he was there, he was a part of the Targaryen Kingsguard and fought with Rhaegar, he knows why Rhaegar fought and why these things happened, it's not just what he saw from Harrenhal  As far as the second bolded, yeah, the text implies that wasn't the case at all, the text mentions nothing of Rhaegar attempting to disrespect Lyanna by how he placed the crown or any of that, it's not just Ned, but more than once it's stated Rhaegar crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty, not the Queen of Beauty. Thats your sole interpretation of the text and what Martin meant. But fact is, that was the title given to the recipient of the winter rose crown, The Queen Of Love And Beauty, that can't be disputed. That's what Lyanna was crowned as, by Rhaegar. It's what Ashara would've been crowned as by Barristan had he defeated Rhaegar in the joust. Exception can't be given in the case of Lyanna merely because you want it to. But the Queen Of Love And Beauty itself is just a title, if it was as you interpret, why didn't he just give it to his wife?

This is what Ned says about it:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Where do you see the word 'love'?  Not only that, Ned perceives the crown to have hidden thorns.  Martin isn't writing harlequin romance.  The perception that the crown is only given as an expression of love is entirely Barristan's interpretation.

Kevan Lannister also thinks the crown was awarded for beauty:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

The fire soon thawed him, and the wine warmed his insides nicely. It also made him sleepy, so he dare not drink another cup. His day was far from done. He had reports to read, letters to write. And supper with Cersei and the king. His niece had been subdued and submissive since her walk of atonement, thank the gods. The novices who attended her reported that she spent a third of her waking hours with her son, another third in prayer, and the rest in her tub. She was bathing four or five times a day, scrubbing herself with horsehair brushes and strong lye soap, as if she meant to scrape her skin off.

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

But if you want to insist that the crown is only awarded for love; then go ahead.

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Where do you see the word 'love'?  Not only that, Ned perceives the crown to have hidden thorns.  Martin isn't writing harlequin romance.  The perception that the crown is only given as an expression of love is entirely Barristan's interpretation.

I think what @RhaegoTheUnborn is saying is that while Ned refers to the crown that way, many others say Rhaegar crowned Lyanna 'The Queen of Love & Beauty' 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Kevan Lannister also thinks the crown was awarded for beauty

That quote hardly implies Kevan thinks the crown was awarded for beauty. It is merely saying Lyanna was beautiful. 

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

But if you want to insist that the crown is only awarded for love; then go ahead

He never said that. He only said it was the 'Crown of Love & Beauty'

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think what @RhaegoTheUnborn is saying is that while Ned refers to the crown that way, many others say Rhaegar crowned Lyanna 'The Queen of Love & Beauty' 

Oh I understand.  Ned is the only character who knows the truth about Lyanna's disappearance and I think it's telling that he only refers to it as the queen of beauty's laurel.  Why doesn't Ned call it the queen of love and beauty's laurel?

Kevan is comparing Cersei's appearance to Lyanna.  He thinks Lyanna was given the crown because of her wild beauty and if Cersei had been there, the crown would have gone to her.  This occurs in the epilogu of DWD:

Quote

An epilogue is a piece of writing at the end of a work of literature, usually used to bring closure to the work.^[1] It is presented from the perspective of within the story. When the author steps in and speaks indirectly to the reader, that is more properly considered an afterword.

 

He also talks about the road not taken.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

This is a direct reference to Rhaegar and his plans to depose Aerys.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

"It was. Even you can see that, surely?"

"Oh, surely." It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. "Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt."

"She thought so," Prince Oberyn agreed, "but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King's Landing, he taught it to my sister. My helm, Dagos." Manwoody handed it to him; a high golden helm with a copper disk mounted on the brow, the sun of Dorne. The visor had been removed, Tyrion saw. "Elia and her children have waited long for justice." Prince Oberyn pulled on soft red leather gloves, and took up his spear again. "But this day they shall have it."

 

 

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh I understand.  Ned is the only character who knows the truth about Lyanna's disappearance and I think it's telling that he only refers to it as the queen of beauty's laurel.  Why doesn't Ned call it the queen of love and beauty's laurel?

Kevan is comparing Cersei's appearance to Lyanna.  He thinks Lyanna was given the crown because of her wild beauty and if Cersei had been there, the crown would have gone to her.  This occurs in the epilogu of DWD:

 

He also talks about the road not taken.

This is a direct reference to Rhaegar and his plans to depose Aerys.

 

 

 

 

With all that said, while it may certainly deserve some credence, I don't believe Ned calling it the "queen of beauties laurel" meant anything specific, nonetheless that Rhaegar never loved Lyanna, because of that nor because the crown had thorns in it, so does nearly every other flower when its grown naturally.But you say Martin chooses his words carefully, and had Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen Of Love & Beauty, he would've written it as such, well he does, in The World Of Ice And Fire companion book...

 

Quote

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy.

 

Just pointing that out.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Martin isn't writing harlequin romance. 

I yet have to read a harlequin romance where nobody lives happily ever after. Rhaegar making off with Lyanna sets off a chain of events that lead to her father and brother's gruesome deaths, a brutal civil war and the deaths of Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves. Pray, how is this a harlequin romance? A Greek or Shakespearean tragedy by all means, but harlequin? Where do you see the lurve triumphant, hearts and roses and sunshine? The HH crowning might seem as a beginning of one, like in Sansa's songs, but what followed are the thorns.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

The perception that the crown is only given as an expression of love is entirely Barristan's interpretation.

That is, however, solely your assertion that Barristan bases Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna on the crowning. The KG are privy to quite a couple of private information, even when they are not part of someone's private circle.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I yet have to read a harlequin romance where nobody lives happily ever after. Rhaegar making off with Lyanna sets off a chain of events that lead to her father and brother's gruesome deaths, a brutal civil war and the deaths of Rhaegar and Lyanna themselves. Pray, how is this a harlequin romance? A Greek or Shakespearean tragedy by all means, but harlequin? Where do you see the lurve triumphant, hearts and roses and sunshine? The HH crowning might seem as a beginning of one, like in Sansa's songs, but what followed are the thorns.

That is, however, solely your assertion that Barristan bases Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna on the crowning. The KG are privy to quite a couple of private information, even when they are not part of someone's private circle.

Shucks, I wish I would've said that first. 

But yes, as you've accurately pointed out, the thorns could just as easily be interpreted as a reference to the hardships that followed the romance. Barristan Selmy alludes to this in a different more literal manner, with the "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" comment, as he follows it by referring to the other Targaryen kings and princes whom who followed their hearts and essentially doomed themselves and immediate family for following their choices of love. He almost makes it sound like a Targaryen trait.

[Faera]

18 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

How is "second-hand" evidence as opposed to any of the supposed "first-hand" evidence for R+L=J

15 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Where is first hand evidence of Rhaegar loving Lyanna? I've yet to receive any evidence of their relationship. 

@RhaegoTheUnborn and @Ferocious Veldt Roarer pretty much summed up why I am suspicious about N+A. We never hear about it from someone who was there - Ned Dayne wasn't born yet and neither Catelyn nor Cersei were present at the tournament. Ned never thinks about it, which immediately made me suspect people got the wrong end of the stick. The closest we get in Barristan stating that Ashara "turned to Stark". Given that the interactions between Barristan and Ned seemed fairly civil and he was primarily referred to as "Lord Eddard" by the most people during his time on the council, including by Barristan, I made me suspicious as to whether he was referring to Ned or possibly another Stark who Barristan might still harbour a seed of resentment towards, such as Brandon.

Say what you like about R+L, at least we can be certain they had sex -- your own theory relies on that fact too! Whether he loved her or not is, unfortunately, immaterial. Lyanna's baby, whether it is Jon or Aegon, could well be a child of rape. While there are several instances suggesting that Rhaegar might well have loved Lyanna, we've had very little evidence either way from Lyanna's end.

In any case, the issue we are discussing is whether there was a baby who came from that union and who the baby was. For the sake of the argument, fine, let's say that N+A is 100% true. How do we get from that to RLA? What was it about Aegon that made you suspect he was their son? That's what I really interesting in hearing.

[Corvo the Crow]

41 minutes ago, Faera said:

@RhaegoTheUnborn and @Ferocious Veldt Roarer pretty much summed up why I am suspicious about N+A. We never hear about it from someone who was there - Ned Dayne wasn't born yet and neither Catelyn nor Cersei were present at the tournament. Ned never thinks about it, which immediately made me suspect people got the wrong end of the stick. The closest we get in Barristan stating that Ashara "turned to Stark". Given that the interactions between Barristan and Ned seemed fairly civil and he was primarily referred to as "Lord Eddard" by the most people during his time on the council, including by Barristan, I made me suspicious as to whether he was referring to Ned or possibly another Stark who Barristan might still harbour a seed of resentment towards, such as Brandon.

Say what you like about R+L, at least we can be certain they had sex -- your own theory relies on that fact too! Whether he loved her or not is, unfortunately, immaterial. Lyanna's baby, whether it is Jon or Aegon, could well be a child of rape. While there are several instances suggesting that Rhaegar might well have loved Lyanna, we've had very little evidence either way from Lyanna's end.

In any case, the issue we are discussing is whether there was a baby who came from that union and who the baby was. For the sake of the argument, fine, let's say that N+A is 100% true. How do we get from that to RLA? What was it about Aegon that made you suspect he was their son? That's what I really interesting in hearing.

But why the secrecy though, if it was Brandon? To save Brandon's honor? Or perhaps is it because Allyria is a Stark bastard so has a claim? Even if Allyria was Ashara's child, they aren't openly announcing it her as a bastard, but a child born near 20 years after the last known Dayne of that generation.

Ned not thinking about Ashara shouldn't mean anything. There's another female character that, to my knowledge, he doesn't think of, not even once, nor are we given her name in the books. Lyarra Stark. Are we to assume Lord Rickard one day took a stroll in the godswood and Eddard was just hanging from a weirwood branch like an overripe fruit? He even has two siblings younger than him by a few years. Eddard was born in 263, Lyanna 266 or 267 Benjen unknown. So when Benjen was born he was 4 years old at least. could very well be 5-6 or  even 7. Old enough to have memories of his mother.