R+L=A

[Faera]

@John Suburbs Thank you!  I felt it was worth a proper rebuttal. Besides, I had considered the meaning and significance of Aegon and JonCon's dye jobs before during my reads, complete with notes (I'm such a nerd!) for reasons that have nothing to do with this theory.

Honestly, the first thing that sprung to my mind when I read it was Daario and his three-pronged beard that "wears false colours".

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Thanks for taking a shot at this. The idea is plain ridiculous and shows how people are affected by things other than the books. In fanart, Lyanna is often depicted as wearing a blue or blue-grey dress, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/d/d1/Rhaeg_lyanna-winterfelll.jpg, https://aidinera.deviantart.com/art/Rhaegar-and-Lyanna-356229959, https://gudulett-e.deviantart.com/art/Lyanna-Rhaegar-455360588, but the text doesn't state anything like that, ever. The only instance Lyanna's clothes are mentioned, the colour is white. It is not colour blue itself that she is associated with but blue winter roses.

 

Yep, there the association is pretty definitively winter roses. I think you might be right about the fanart influencing people's thoughts but even that overall favours a powder/frost blue for her dresses for the most part. Bottom line even when thinking about the colour of winter roses, the shade is completely wrong for a parallel with Aegon and his shock of deep, dark blue hair dye (that clearly means nothing to Aegon and JonCon once they are not "acting" and putting on a pretence). 

Moreover, as @Ser Leftwich points out below...

5 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Incorrect. Brienne is associated with the color blue, in fact, considerable more so than Lyanna.

An excellent point!

Now that I think about it, if we were to associate any character with 'the colour blue', it would be Brienne of Tarth. It connects to her on several levels: when she first appears she is "the blue knight" -- dressed in cobalt blue armour, steel and even her morningstar is blue. Catelyn's chapters even describe her as "Brienne the Blue" (ACoK, Catelyn II and IV); she hails from Tarth, "the Sapphire Isle" named for the blue of its waters; her only truly beautiful feature is her "large and very blue" eyes, as "blue as her armour", and she wears a blue dress that brings out the colour of those eyes.

Ultimately, Brienne is so very blue!

[Ser Leftwich]

This topic is as ill conceived as the one from years ago that associated Brienne with the winter blue roses, because she was associated with the color blue and, this is the best (worst) part, "She did not gown herself as a lady, but chose a knight's finery instead, a velvet doublet quartered rose-and-azure,..." that the word 'rose' was used in relation to her to describe a color and not a flower, THEREFORE, she must be related somehow to the flowers because it is the same word. Nonsense.

"Word association" theory writing does not work.

"CRTL+F" theory writing does not work.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

 But we're going to make the leap that because Lyanna disappeared at some point and that Rhaegar was also unaccounted for; they must have disappeared together. 

You're reversing the order of events. First Brandon came looking for Rhaegar, and then it turned out that Rhaegar cannot be found when Aerys wanted him to explain himself. So from the very get-go, Rhaegar was perceived as being responsible for Lyanna's disappearance. The World Book says that he fell upon Lyanna Stark, Dany muses how he swept in to rescue his northern girl, and Lyanna ends up in a tower guarded by Rhaegar's best pal. If Rhaegar turns out to have had nothing to do with her disappearance, it would make GRRM a grandmaster of trolling.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

We don't know that this is true at all. 

Given the multiple sources corroborating on the events, most likely.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

But the romance story gets Jon and Dany where people want them to go.  Are any of the original assumption underpinning RLJ still true?  Is the story still going in the direction people thought it would so many years ago?

Can't say about Dany, but since people figured out that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love right after AGOT, and ADWD delivered "prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", I'd say it is. The same for Jon as their child - figured out after AGOT, and then there is the blue rose on the Wall in the HotU vision. The KotLT in Meera's story, and the ADWD establishing Lyanna as a skilled rider, the app having her ride at the rings and TWOW introducing 

Spoiler

Elia Sand as Lady Lance, with exactly the same hobby

The one not really confirmed is the issue of Jon's potential legitimacy but I am sure we will eventually get there, too.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Selmy says that he didn't think it was in Rhaegar to be happy and Ned sees Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood.  I doubt either of them would throw over every other consideration; to be so reckless as to run off with each other.  Lyanna wasn't behaving like Sansa.  She was made of iron and

Funny that her own loving brother describes her as "wilful" and says that it was her own wildness aka the "wolf blood" that led her to an early grave", so it's actually the very contrary - it would be exactly Lyanna's character to do something reckless, just like when she played the mystery knight at the tourney or started to beat the squires. Besides, we even do see Lyanna behave like Sansa, when she cries over a song

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Rhaegar wanted to return the realm to peace, prosperity and justice. 

And which of these was the land lacking prior the rebellion? There was no war, and while Tywin was Hand, the land prospered. Justice was lacking only in Aerys' immediate vicinity. Things would certainly get worse with Aerys' deteriorating mental health and Rhaegar wasn't going to let that happen, but we must not forget that he had yet another motivation in the form of the prophecy, which even made him change his life. Finally, the theme that GRRM has explored over and over: love is the death of duty. Rhaegar wouldn't be the first guy who totally lost it because he fell in love, perhaps the first time in his life. Such things happen.

BTW, you still haven't explained why you perceive R+L as a harlequin romance. Even if you are ignoring me, other people still see that you are failing to deliver.

[Black Dragons]

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:03 AM, Ygrain said:

Helaena's choice, in fact, and the situation is not the same in the least. The Lannisters would be looking - so what if they don't find Elia and her children, and even Varys himself? They escaped, fullstop. Somehow. Just like Willem Darry escaped with Viserys and Dany.

Not to mention that Aerys' plan was to burn KL, including the keep, and it was Jaime, not Varys, who prevented that. Meaning, the escape wouldn't have been noticed, anyway, until Elia and her children reappeared in DS or Dorne or elsewhere. 

 

You're riding a high horse, lady. It will hurt when you fall down. But by all means, please, enlighten us.

We shall see who is falling when the Winds of Winter come out

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

We shall see who is falling when the Winds of Winter come out

You've never posted anything that could support your theory delirium…

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

BTW, you still haven't explained why you perceive R+L as a harlequin romance. Even if you are ignoring me, other people still see that you are failing to deliver.

What people Ygrain?   

Quote

"Is it love you fancy?" He'd decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite from the damp gloom of Pyke. "Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?"

 

[Ser Leftwich]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What people Ygrain?   

 

The question stems from this statement:

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

We don't know that this is true at all.  But the romance story gets Jon and Dany where people want them to go.

This statement relies on straw men. That some supposed readers use a supposed romance between R+L to overlay a future romance between Jon and Dany. That is not really a part of R+L=J. While they (J and D) both have magical visions/dreams is important because of them being both having Targ blood, not necessarily that they will get together romantically. Discounting that they have magically visions because 'people' want them to be together is not sound, if those visions are just as relevant because they have Targ blood.

That Jon and Dany might come together romantically is wishful thinking (and not something I subscribe to at all) and not at all important or even relevant to R+L=J.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The question stems from this statement:

This statement relies on straw men. That some supposed readers use a supposed romance between R+L to overlay a future romance between Jon and Dany. That is not really a part of R+L=J. While they (J and D) both have magical visions/dreams is important because of them being both having Targ blood, not necessarily that they will get together romantically. Discounting that they have magically visions because 'people' want them to be together is not sound, if those visions are just as relevant because they have Targ blood.

That Jon and Dany might come together romantically is wishful thinking (and not something I subscribe to at all) and not at all important or even relevant to R+L=J.

There is an assumption that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because that was necessary to fulfill the prophecy.  It's rationalized with the romance that readers have built around it to make it so.  The romance narrative is pure fantasy, a tale which gets larger in the telling as time goes on. 

[Ser Leftwich]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is an assumption that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because that was necessary to fulfill the prophecy.  It's rationalized with the romance that readers have built around it to make it so.  The romance narrative is pure fantasy, a tale which gets larger in the telling as time goes on. 

Prophecy is not a central thesis to R+L=J at all. It is only one possible motivation. There are plenty of possible paths that get from the Tourney at Harrenhal to R+L=J that are not romantic narratives.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Prophecy is not a central thesis to R+L=J at all. It is only one possible motivation. There are plenty of possible paths that get from the Tourney at Harrenhal to R+L=J that are not romantic narratives.

I don't agree with any of the assumptions or interpretations for which RLJ is dependent. I think there are plenty of other possibilities that don't include RLJ at all.

[JNR]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

The romance narrative is pure fantasy, a tale which gets larger in the telling as time goes on. 

It does seem a little precious, doesn't it?  

The beautiful prince rides off with his true love, galloping a thousand miles to a remote tower where the two of them knew no reality, for months and months, but each other.   He played his harp, she sighed and wept, and just like that, it was time for bed.

And when the beautiful prince's father burned his true love's father alive?  -- why... she patted the prince on the cheek and said "No worries!  Let's make a baby."

But of course there are other variations of RLJ.  The above is just the most popular one, that tens of thousands of people worldwide have decided is overwhelmingly likely.

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

We shall see who is falling when the Winds of Winter come out

 

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

What people Ygrain?   

 

Ah. So nothing to back your statement, the two of you? Is this the best you can do? Really?

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Ah. So nothing to back your statement, the two of you? Is this the best you can do? Really?

You take yourself far too seriously Ygrain if you think anyone is paying attention.  And you're right, I don't read everything or respond to everything I read.   

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Prophecy is not a central thesis to R+L=J at all. It is only one possible motivation.

True. Speaking for myself, I do think that Rhaegar's actions were probably related to prophecy (whether Jon was the product of their liaison or not) as his concerns over the fulfilment of prophecy is among the few things we reliably know about him via Aemon. I don't necessarily think it had to have a love story behind it at all -- where the story ended up was far from romantic, after all. The real question that has always lingered in my mind has always been Lyanna and her movements in the lead up to her disappearance. She's so central to this whole thing yet once we lost Ned's POV, we lost valuable insight into her character.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think there are plenty of other possibilities that don't include RLJ at all.

What is your favoured possibility?

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

But of course there are other variations of RLJ.  The above is just the most popular one, that tens of thousands of people worldwide have decided is overwhelmingly likely.

I do think there are some interesting variations on the theme and enjoy reading them.  But again, I don't take the story of two moons in the sky literally any more than I do Ned's dreams.  Or that because a room smells of roses, that it means there are roses in the room, rather than someone using rosewater and leaving their scent behind. It may also be that Lyanna herself was bathed in rosewater.  This may say something about the location where she was found. 

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

You take yourself far too seriously Ygrain if you think anyone is paying attention.  And you're right, I don't read everything or respond to everything I read.   

So you won't put your money where your mouth is. Good to know.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

So you won't put your money where your mouth is. Good to know.

Put my money where my mouth is?  LOL!  How melodramatic.  

[Bloodraven's Spider]

The denial for R+L=A is baffling.... You people dont event give it a shred of possibility. If Jon was the product of R+L. He would have been born in Winterfell not TOJ. There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well. If Jon is the product of R+L when could he have been conceived/where? And where was he born and dont say the TOJ without some remarkable concrete evidence. Jon is legit Ned 2.0. 

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

The denial for R+L=A is baffling.... You people dont event give it a shred of possibility. If Jon was the product of R+L. He would have been born in Winterfell not TOJ. There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well. If Jon is the product of R+L when could he have been conceived/where? And where was he born and dont say the TOJ without some remarkable concrete evidence. Jon is legit Ned 2.0. 

Lots of people have talked about the bed of blood... And if I am not mistaken people say it is a simbol of giving birth

[Ser Leftwich]

23 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

The denial for R+L=A is baffling.... You people dont event give it a shred of possibility. If Jon was the product of R+L. He would have been born in Winterfell not TOJ. There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well. If Jon is the product of R+L when could he have been conceived/where? And where was he born and dont say the TOJ without some remarkable concrete evidence. Jon is legit Ned 2.0. 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".