R+L=A

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well.

 

2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

The denial for R+L=A is baffling

I feel like these statements contradict each other. If there is no evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a baby then how is denial for R+L=A or J or anybody baffling?

 

[Nowy Tends]

Ah! Now that's funny; R + L didn't have a baby, and this baby is YG!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

14 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

The denial for R+L=A is baffling.... You people dont event give it a shred of possibility. If Jon was the product of R+L. He would have been born in Winterfell not TOJ. There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well. If Jon is the product of R+L when could he have been conceived/where? And where was he born and dont say the TOJ without some remarkable concrete evidence. Jon is legit Ned 2.0. 

It might have something to do with the quality of the evidence presented. Considering that you started with "we know now that [here the stuff you didn't bother to substantiate in any way]..." and continue in the same vein - the reaction isn't actually baffling at all.

[Ygrain]

14 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

The denial for R+L=A is baffling.... You people dont event give it a shred of possibility.

And what exactly is baffling about denying something that has zero support in Ned's PoVs? He never, ever, thinks of this supposed baby of Lyanna's, even though he was present at the moment of Lyanna's death and gave her some promises that kept weighing on him for fourteen years. What did he promise to his dying sister then, to send her baby boy away and never, ever, think about him or check on him?

14 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

If Jon was the product of R+L. He would have been born in Winterfell not TOJ.

Like, you mean that Lyanna gave birth before she disappeared with Rhaegar? Peculiar.

14 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well. If Jon is the product of R+L when could he have been conceived/where?

When was he conceived? 8-9 months prior the Sack. Because he is about 8-9 months older than Dany, who was born 9 months after the Sack. Where? Somewhere Lyanna was a couple of months into the Rebellion.

 

14 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

And where was he born and dont say the TOJ without some remarkable concrete evidence. Jon is legit Ned 2.0. 

Well, since he was born at around the time of the Sack or somewhat later, it definitely wasn't at Winterfell.

And since it seems that we are at least at an agreement that Lyanna gave birth at ToJ, you just don't believe the child was Jon, ask yourself: Given that thought of Lyanna keep haunting Ned for almost two decades, how plausible is it that he let her baby completely not just out of sight but out of thought? Why does he tell Robert that Jon's name was Wylla but denies Jon this knowledge? And if it wasn't Wylla, then why does he lie to his friend and king (which is treason)? There is no reason to lie about a commonborn wench, and if it was Ashara, it's not exactly a secret that she had a bastard child, so what's the deal? And even if it was Ashara, why would Ned label the secret as "too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust"? Inconvenient, embarrassing, problematic - but dangerous?

Now try to entertain the thought of RLJ, and tell me in earnest: would that count as such a dangerous secret? Would it explain why Ned is so tight-lipped and even lies?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

On January 4, 2018 at 6:19 AM, Ygrain said:

And what exactly is baffling about denying something that has zero support in Ned's PoVs? He never, ever, thinks of this supposed baby of Lyanna's, even though he was present at the moment of Lyanna's death and gave her some promises that kept weighing on him for fourteen years. What did he promise to his dying sister then, to send her baby boy away and never, ever, think about him or check on him?

Like, you mean that Lyanna gave birth before she disappeared with Rhaegar? Peculiar.

When was he conceived? 8-9 months prior the Sack. Because he is about 8-9 months older than Dany, who was born 9 months after the Sack. Where? Somewhere Lyanna was a couple of months into the Rebellion.

 

Well, since he was born at around the time of the Sack or somewhat later, it definitely wasn't at Winterfell.

And since it seems that we are at least at an agreement that Lyanna gave birth at ToJ, you just don't believe the child was Jon, ask yourself: Given that thought of Lyanna keep haunting Ned for almost two decades, how plausible is it that he let her baby completely not just out of sight but out of thought? Why does he tell Robert that Jon's name was Wylla but denies Jon this knowledge? And if it wasn't Wylla, then why does he lie to his friend and king (which is treason)? There is no reason to lie about a commonborn wench, and if it was Ashara, it's not exactly a secret that she had a bastard child, so what's the deal? And even if it was Ashara, why would Ned label the secret as "too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust"? Inconvenient, embarrassing, problematic - but dangerous?

Now try to entertain the thought of RLJ, and tell me in earnest: would that count as such a dangerous secret? Would it explain why Ned is so tight-lipped and even lies?

Why not tell Jon or anyone for that matter? For safety reasons. Aegon needed to be well hidden even the slightest slip could put the boy in danger. Perhaps Ned could have told Jon about Ashara but then again she is with Aegon posing as Septa Lemore. What if Jon were to seek out Aegon only to find out his mother spent the better part of the past 15 years watching over his cousin rather than him?  Also if Ned were to let the beans spill about this, Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon all lose their claim to Winterfell; something Cat was so desperately worried about. That would make for some awkward dinner conversation... How would Cat react if the news broke Jon was truly Ashara's and they were married. She wouldnt be to thrilled but then again her father and the blackfish knew about Ned being married...Varys is the true player of the game and what does and doesn't do decides the fate of the realm:

Ned: "Would you at least consent to carry a message out for me?"

Varys: "That would depend on the message. I will gladly provide you with paper and ink, if you like. And when you have written what you will, I will take the letter and read it, and deliver it or not, as best serves my own end." 

 

Varys knows about Aegon and Jon so what ever the information contained in this letter might posses will not be new to spider but for whomever the letter is for it will be. Varys does not want anyone knowing of Aegon's existence and Jon's parentage because of how intertwined they are. Even if you believe R+L=J Varys still knows about Jon. Theres a huge piece of the puzzle know one knows and that who told Ned to go to the Tower of Joy? Its got to be either Varys or Pycelle and my money is on Varys

[Faera]

On 03/01/2018 at 8:04 PM, Ser Insight said:

The denial for R+L=A is baffling.... You people dont event give it a shred of possibility. 

But I didn't just dismiss your comment about Aegon's blue dye-hair dye out of hand. I went back to the books, looked at the context and thought about it before coming back to explain why I disagree. If you present a verifiable quote from the books, I will go back and take a look because I enjoy new interpretations and readings. I just can't promise to agree.

Quote

There is still no "evidence" that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby as well.

Well, I know how I came to the conclusion Lyanna gave birth and it was based on evidence. So, there is evidence. As for why I thought (and still think) Jon was the most likely child she had, the beginning point wasn't really "Bed of blood = Lyanna must have had a baby! - who was that baby?" but "Why is Jon Snow's mother a mystery?" The silence around the subject presented the mystery that was being invited to be solved so it was in the back of my mind while reading it.

I can understand why someone might come to the conclusion Ashara or Wylla was Jon's mother, even though I disagree with both. It is the tying of Aegon to Lyanna or even Ned that I simply don't see based on what's been presented so far. 

8 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

How would Cat react if the news broke Jon was truly Ashara's and they were married. She wouldnt be to thrilled but then again her father and the blackfish knew about Ned being married.

This is also something I cannot get behind based on what has been presented so far - the idea that Ned and Ashara were married. There is nothing I have seen to suggest so far that such a thing occured, aside from wishful thinking. The only thing connecting her to Ned comes from gossip and Cat's own paranoia that Jon might one day have children who could contest the claims of Cat's grandchildren. That doesn't necessarily come from fears that Jon is legitimate, Cat from it. It is far more likely they come from fears that Jon might one day take a lawful wife, might one day have a true born children with a lawful wife, much like the origins of Houses Longwaters and even the Baratheons started with a Targaryen bastard. Plus, Robb legitimizing Jon as his last act in his will also added to Cat's fears because it creates a Blackfyre situation to boot, by giving Jon the added benefit of being able to call himself a Stark. 

Why do you think Blackfish and Hoster "knew" Ned was married? 

Quote

Why not tell Jon or anyone for that matter? ... Perhaps Ned could have told Jon about Ashara but then again she is with Aegon posing as Septa Lemore. What if Jon were to seek out Aegon only to find out his mother spent the better part of the past 15 years watching over his cousin rather than him?

Why would Jon seek out a dead woman? Everyone believes Ashara Dayne is dead. (She probably is dead - I'm not completely sold in this idea she is Septa Lemore.) Even if she is Septa Lemore, there's no need to tell him that it where she is or about Aegon. Surely the whole point of this fake suicide was to disappear and stop people looking for her. All Ned need tell Jon is mother was Ashara and leave it at that. That way, you have the drama of Jon having heard the story of his mother's death and wish he could have known her. Believing your mother is dead but then she turns up would be a great catharsis for someone like Jon who is in conflict over his identity and place.

But it's not; the conflict surrounds Jon's utter ignorance over the situation as a whole. He can only fantasize about who his mother was because Ned kept him completely in the dark. Regardless of what we might think happened to Ashara or where she is now, I cannot see a genuinely good reason to believe Ned wouldn't have just told Cat and Jon it was her to put them out of their misery of when as far as anyone was concerned the woman was dead.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

But I didn't just dismiss your comment about Aegon's blue dye-hair dye out of hand. I went back to the books, looked at the context and thought about it before coming back to explain why I disagree. If you present a verifiable quote from the books, I will go back and take a look because I enjoy new interpretations and readings. I just can't promise to agree.

Well, I know how I came to the conclusion Lyanna gave birth and it was based on evidence. So, there is evidence. As for why I thought (and still think) Jon was the most likely child she had, the beginning point wasn't really "Bed of blood = Lyanna must have had a baby! - who was that baby?" but "Why is Jon Snow's mother a mystery?" The silence around the subject presented the mystery that was being invited to be solved so it was in the back of my mind while reading it.

I can understand why someone might come to the conclusion Ashara or Wylla was Jon's mother, even though I disagree with both. It is the tying of Aegon to Lyanna or even Ned that I simply don't see based on what's been presented so far. 

This is also something I cannot get behind based on what has been presented so far - the idea that Ned and Ashara were married. There is nothing I have seen to suggest so far that such a thing occured, aside from wishful thinking. The only thing connecting her to Ned comes from gossip and Cat's own paranoia that Jon might one day have children who could contest the claims of Cat's grandchildren. That doesn't necessarily come from fears that Jon is legitimate, Cat from it. It is far more likely they come from fears that Jon might one day take a lawful wife, might one day have a true born children with a lawful wife, much like the origins of Houses Longwaters and even the Baratheons started with a Targaryen bastard. Plus, Robb legitimizing Jon as his last act in his will also added to Cat's fears because it creates a Blackfyre situation to boot, by giving Jon the added benefit of being able to call himself a Stark. 

Why do you think Blackfish and Hoster "knew" Ned was married? 

Why would Jon seek out a dead woman? Everyone believes Ashara Dayne is dead. (She probably is dead - I'm not completely sold in this idea she is Septa Lemore.) Even if she is Septa Lemore, there's no need to tell him that it where she is or about Aegon. Surely the whole point of this fake suicide was to disappear and stop people looking for her. All Ned need tell Jon is mother was Ashara and leave it at that. That way, you have the drama of Jon having heard the story of his mother's death and wish he could have known her. Believing your mother is dead but then she turns up would be a great catharsis for someone like Jon who is in conflict over his identity and place.

But it's not; the conflict surrounds Jon's utter ignorance over the situation as a whole. He can only fantasize about who his mother was because Ned kept him completely in the dark. Regardless of what we might think happened to Ashara or where she is now, I cannot see a genuinely good reason to believe Ned wouldn't have just told Cat and Jon it was her to put them out of their misery of when as far as anyone was concerned the woman was dead.

I think Hoster and the Blackfish knew about Ned being married because it was at these negotiations that the rift between Hoster and Blackfish began. Hoster obviously had plans to marry Cat off to Brandon (Tywin and Hoster were planning on a Jaime/Lysa match but that doesnt happen becuase Jaime joins the KG Tywin offers Tyrion which Hoster declines as well) but with his death and Ned & Co in the midst of a rebellion that if lost would cost them their lives had no choice but to agree to this marriage (Ned to Cat and Jon to Lysa). Tywin makes a remark once we find out about Robb bedding and marrying Jeyne (He is his father's son. I believe that was the statement.) I take that as Tywin might have known or heard rumors and Ned and Ashara's relationship. But the difference is Ned did the "right" thing by putting Ashara aside as thousands of people would have been slaughtered which is what happened at the Red Wedding. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

I think Hoster and the Blackfish knew about Ned being married because it was at these negotiations that the rift between Hoster and Blackfish began.

There's nothing in the text that indicates that.

The rift between Hoster and his brother started when Hoster wanted to marry him off to Bethany Redwyne and Blackfish refused. He commanded him as his lord to marry her and Blackfish refused. Hoster says his brother essentially spit on him when he refused that marriage. Catelyn says she remembers one of their louder arguments when she was eight. 

[Ser Leftwich]

How is this thread fan-fiction still going?

(Edited for clarity.)

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I think Hoster and the Blackfish knew about Ned being married because it was at these negotiations that the rift between Hoster and Blackfish began. Hoster obviously had plans to marry Cat off to Brandon (Tywin and Hoster were planning on a Jaime/Lysa match but that doesnt happen becuase Jaime joins the KG Tywin offers Tyrion which Hoster declines as well) but with his death and Ned & Co in the midst of a rebellion that if lost would cost them their lives had no choice but to agree to this marriage (Ned to Cat and Jon to Lysa). Tywin makes a remark once we find out about Robb bedding and marrying Jeyne (He is his father's son. I believe that was the statement.) I take that as Tywin might have known or heard rumors and Ned and Ashara's relationship. But the difference is Ned did the "right" thing by putting Ashara aside as thousands of people would have been slaughtered which is what happened at the Red Wedding. 

As @Widow's Watch pointed out, your reasoning doesn't hold up based on what's in the text and I'm getting exhausted by these endless suppositions and logical fallacies. This idea alone that Ned Stark would marry someone, have a baby with her but then abandon her and their son to commit bigamy then raise that son as illegitimate makes me wonder if we're even reading the same books... 

 

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

How is this thread fan-fiction still going?

(Edited for clarity.)

Like most disasters, sometimes it's hard to look away.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Just now, Faera said:

As @Widow's Watch pointed out, your reasoning doesn't hold up based on what's in the text and I'm getting exhausted by these endless suppositions and logical fallacies. This idea alone that Ned Stark would marry someone, have a baby with her but then abandon her and their son to commit bigamy then raise that son as illegitimate makes me wonder if we're even reading the same books... 

 

Like most disasters, sometimes it's hard to look away.

So Ned's romance with Ashara means nothing? You think George went out of his way to bring light to this issue for no reason. You Know Nothing

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

How is this thread fan-fiction still going?

(Edited for clarity.)

 

14 minutes ago, Faera said:

Like most disasters, sometimes it's hard to look away.

This is what happens when an entire show based on a book series, starts, goes through 7 seasons and ends with an extra year between the last two seasons all while waiting for the second to last book to be published. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

So Ned's romance with Ashara means nothing? You think George went out of his way to bring light to this issue for no reason. You Know Nothing

Of course not. the romance is why she killed herself after learning that a man she loved had killed her brother and then showed up with a bastard baby

[Faera]

25 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

So Ned's romance with Ashara means nothing? You think George went out of his way to bring light to this issue for no reason. You Know Nothing

 

Really, you want to know what I think?

Fine, I think Ashara Dayne is a red herring. If Wylla is the "obvious answer" for who Jon's mother is then Ashara is the "false lead" for who Jon's mother is. She has been mentioned about a baker's dozen times in the whole series and there is nothing to suggest she was married to Ned. There isn't even anything hopeful or probable to me that she was even Jon's mother. All we have is gossip and rumour. No hint from Ned of any romance let alone a secret baby or a flippin' marriage, just Cersei quoting the same gossip Cat heard.

That is what I think George went out of his way to set Ashara up for -- a fakeout.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

So Ned's romance with Ashara means nothing? You think George went out of his way to bring light to this issue for no reason. You Know Nothing

What romance? You have failed to prove there was a romance let alone one that leads to what you suggest. 

Any time anyone asks for proof or clarity you say it is because they are on the RLJ band wagon. 

I'll just use your latest erroneous statement here. You think not only was Ned married to Ashara but also that Hoster & the BF knew about it. Why do you think that? What in the text makes you believe that? 

[Faera]

9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This is what happens when an entire show based on a book series, starts, goes through 7 seasons and ends with an extra year between the last two seasons all while waiting for the second to last book to be published. 

Yep, chaos.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

25 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

So Ned's romance with Ashara means nothing?

What Ned's romance with Ashara? Because it's still far from certain if there had been any in the first place. And no, you didn't help, even with your brave "we know that Ned is on the way to Riverrun with Ashara to get his father's blessing to marry her".

Seriously, your argument looks like a Chewbacca Defense at this point.

[Nowy Tends]

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

 You Know Nothing

Says the  poster whose main argument is "I think"…

[Bloodraven's Spider]

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What romance? You have failed to prove there was a romance let alone one that leads to what you suggest. 

Any time anyone asks for proof or clarity you say it is because they are on the RLJ band wagon. 

I'll just use your latest erroneous statement here. You think not only was Ned married to Ashara but also that Hoster & the BF knew about it. Why do you think that? What in the text makes you believe that? 

Firstly we learn about Ned and Ashara's romance in ASOS when Arya is with the brotherhood talking with Ned Dayne (named after Ned) who is the current Lord of Starfall and tells her about Ned and Ashara. And do I think Hoster and BLackfish knew about Ned's marriage with Ashara...No. I did think he told them he was married and was keeping who the wife was to himself

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Firstly we learn about Ned and Ashara's romance in ASOS when Arya is with the brotherhood talking with Ned Dayne (named after Ned) who is the current Lord of Starfall and tells her about Ned and Ashara. And do I think Hoster and BLackfish knew about Ned's marriage with Ashara...No. I did think he told them he was married and was keeping who the wife was to himself

Ok so you think Hoster & BF knew Ned was married. But why do you think that? What has led you to that conclusion? Z