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Lost Melnibonean

Jon Snow

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Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

Jon IX, Game 70

Clever. 

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"... And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother’s son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings.”

Jon I, Clash 6

Or not...

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“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar toland on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting backand forth.

“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.

“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” 

Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd. 

Jon I, Clash 6

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This, of course, echoes Lyanna's bed of blood...

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"Women birth children in blood and pain, and die."

Theon I, Clash 11

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^As does this...

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Dany had never looked upon the Usurper's face, yet seldom a day had passed when she had not thought of him. His great shadow had lain across her since the hour of her birth, when she came forth amidst blood and storm into a world where she no longer had a place. And now this ebony stranger had lifted that shadow.

Daenerys II, Clash 27

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I think Catelyn's reflection about Ashara's looks might be something that's overlooked. 

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That cut deep, Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshall her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in their years that Ned ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now. (Catelyn II, AGOT 6)

I think this may have been an indirect way for GRRM to give us an idea of Jon's looks when he was still a baby. Catelyn hears the rumors about Ashara who is a reputed beauty, emphasis put on the color of her eyes. We find out the color of her hair only in ADWD. Catelyn looks at baby Jon, sees something there that she likened to Ashara (could very well be the eyes) and decided to confront Ned about it. 

As Jon grew he looked more like Ned. It might mean that when he didn't hold much of the Stark looks when he was a baby/small child and grew into those looks. Jon may have looked a lot less like his mother and a lot more like his father at one point.

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On 6/2/2018 at 9:18 AM, Widow's Watch said:

I think Catelyn's reflection about Ashara's looks might be something that's overlooked. 

I think this may have been an indirect way for GRRM to give us an idea of Jon's looks when he was still a baby. Catelyn hears the rumors about Ashara who is a reputed beauty, emphasis put on the color of her eyes. We find out the color of her hair only in ADWD. Catelyn looks at baby Jon, sees something there that she likened to Ashara (could very well be the eyes) and decided to confront Ned about it. 

As Jon grew he looked more like Ned. It might mean that when he didn't hold much of the Stark looks when he was a baby/small child and grew into those looks. Jon may have looked a lot less like his mother and a lot more like his father at one point.

I don't think it was something about Jon's looks...Cat heard the servants in Winterfell talk about Ashara Dayne being the mother and confronted Ned about it.  I don't think it had anything to do with Jon's looks as far as I remember.

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52 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I don't think it was something about Jon's looks...Cat heard the servants in Winterfell talk about Ashara Dayne being the mother and confronted Ned about it.  I don't think it had anything to do with Jon's looks as far as I remember.

I know that Catelyn heard the rumors about Ashara from the servants and the soldiers. 

I'm just saying that I think there's a lot more going on in that passage than just telling us about Ashara's looks. If Cat believed the rumor enough to go and confront Ned over it, then maybe she saw something in the baby that made her think there was truth to the rumor. 

And Catelyn does say in those same thoughts that as he grew, Jon looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she had given him. So as he grew. I think there's a veiled reference to Jon's looks back in those days that connects him to the one physical description that we Catelyn can connect directly to Ashara when Jon was so young. Her eye color.

JMO on the matter.

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On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 11:23 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon I, Clash 6

Or not...

Jon I, Clash 6

Why would Mormont's raven give a hoot (or a quork) about a dragon king, an idea a scant three hundred years old?  In fact, the raven later describes just what kind it considers Jon:

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"Free," the raven muttered.  "Corn.  King."

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"Corn," the bird said, and "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow."  That was queer.  The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

The Corn King is a sacrifice to bring about the end of Winter and the start of Spring.

The ravens connection to Kings probably comes from their connection to the weirnet.  And the weirnet seems to gather their information from the weirwoods.  So the King that the Raven would be familiar with would probably be one of the Kings of the First Men.  And perhaps they have glimpsed those with Kings blood sacrificed to the weirnet before:

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Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree.  A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't" but they could not hear him, no more than his father had.  The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed.  And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

 

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The Corn King is a sacrifice to bring about the end of Winter and the start of Spring.

Preach.

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The ravens connection to Kings probably comes from their connection to the weirnet.  And the weirnet seems to gather their information from the weirwoods. 

The weirnet has many eyes – not just the ones carved on trees.

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So the King that the Raven would be familiar with would probably be one of the Kings of the First Men.  And perhaps they have glimpsed those with Kings blood sacrificed to the weirnet before:

Yup.

I would only add that both Weirwoods and Ravens are nourished by blood and death. They are not only symbiotic, their dietary motivations are in perfect harmony.

The damned Others, of course, undo death and hoard away that source of nutrition.  :smoking:

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Sure its easy to notice the clues once you read it again after knowing the formula, but who the fuck was suspecting foul play when reading A Game of Thrones for the first time? xD

Bran discussing the physical differences between Jon and Robb literally happened (if you don't count the prologue) in the first chapter. At that point I just presumed one took after the father, the other the mother. 

To be honest I didn't really pay much attention to Jon's character until A Clash of Kings when we got more information on his ability to warg. 

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On 12/16/2017 at 12:49 AM, divica said:

That is a very good quote!

As you are reading the books again have you seen any hints why lyanna wouldn t send letters or mensagers or anything to ned saying she wasn t kidnapped? Or if Lyanna was in the ToJ by her choice why did ned and the kingsguard fight between themselves?

It seems there is a secret story going on behind the war that we know almost nothing!

Or maybe Rhaegar loved lyanna but she didn t love him... and he did rape her in order to have a son that he believed would be TPtwP and the kingsguards were there to protect and take the baby way when he was able to travel...

I think it is because there was no maester there to tend to the raven?? 

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On 12/8/2017 at 10:49 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion II, Game 13

Here we see that due to Eddard’s lies, the realm has it backwards. Jon Snow has the Stark look from his mother, and his father left little of his facial appearance in this son. 

We don't know that. It's Tyrion Pov he never saw Rhaegar Targaryen, as far I am aware. We can't be sure that Jon doesn't share any facial features with Rhaegar.

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14 hours ago, keira_targaryen said:

We don't know that. It's Tyrion Pov he never saw Rhaegar Targaryen, as far I am aware. We can't be sure that Jon doesn't share any facial features with Rhaegar.

It's a literary juxtaposition, no? If the one side is true than the reader should assume that the flip side is also true, no? 

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On 6/4/2019 at 4:14 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's a literary juxtaposition, no? If the one side is true than the reader should assume that the flip side is also true, no? 

Yes and no. The reader can only assume as you said but we can't be sure. Surely, Jon has the Stark features that no one suspects his mother's origins but how many people does Jon encounters that were close to Rhaegar Targaryen? Alliser Thorn or maybe Stanis Baratheon but we don't know how much this character's interacted with Rhaegar or the Targaryens in general. 

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38 minutes ago, keira_targaryen said:

Yes and no. The reader can only assume as you said but we can't be sure. Surely, Jon has the Stark features that no one suspects his mother's origins but how many people does Jon encounters that were close to Rhaegar Targaryen? Alliser Thorn or maybe Stanis Baratheon but we don't know how much this character's interacted with Rhaegar or the Targaryens in general. 

But the very characteristic and typical “Targ look” is all about the colouring, not the actual features. 

And even if we go by facial features, Jon looks very much like a Stark, there’s no doubts about that. Even Cat thinks about Jon’s “Stark-ness”. 

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35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But the very characteristic and typical “Targ look” is all about the colouring, not the actual features. 

And even if we go by facial features, Jon looks very much like a Stark, there’s no doubts about that. Even Cat thinks about Jon’s “Stark-ness”. 

Because he has the colouring of the Stark, black hair grey eyes, and the long face. But there are more to that, the shape of the eyes, Of the nose, the lips... Cat thinks that because she doesn't know where to look a part from his "stark-ness". I'm not trying to say that he doesn't look Stark, he does. It's undeniable. But he can also look like his father without being obvious because we the readers don't know how Rhaegar looked, the shape of his nose and eyes and lips. Was he the slender type? well built? All we know is that Rhaegar had silver hair, indigo eyes and was tall and beautiful.

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6 minutes ago, keira_targaryen said:

Because he has the colouring of the Stark, black hair grey eyes, and the long face. But there are more to that, the shape of the eyes, Of the nose, the lips... Cat thinks that because she doesn't know where to look a part from his "stark-ness". I'm not trying to say that he doesn't look Stark, he does. It's undeniable. But he can also look like his father without being obvious because we the readers don't know how Rhaegar looked, the shape of his nose and eyes and lips. Was he the slender type? well built? All we know is that Rhaegar had silver hair, indigo eyes and was tall and beautiful.

Again, the way the author gives us the “Targ look” is through their colouring, not facial features. We never hear of a typical Targ nose, or cheekbones, or anything like that. It’s always the variations on hair and eye colour. 

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14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Again, the way the author gives us the “Targ look” is through their colouring, not facial features. We never hear of a typical Targ nose, or cheekbones, or anything like that. It’s always the variations on hair and eye colour. 

Yes, I agree with you. Again I'm not saying Jon doesn't have the Stark look he does. What I'm trying to say is people don't know who his mother is, they are not looking for his other physical traits because they don't know where to look. Martin was smart here, he only gives us the colouring of the Targaryens, without giving more details. 

Just because he doesn't have the Targ colouring doesn't mean he can't have similarities with his biological father.

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And honesty it would be too obvious if we had a complete description of the Targaryens , the other characters and the reader could put 2 and 2 together and say " hey Jon Snow has the traditional Targaryen cheek bones, that's suspicious" 

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"Rhaegar ... Rhaegar won, damn him. ... He has Lyanna now, and I have her." 

Eddard X, Game 39

I wonder if Robert knows the truth of Lyanna's feelings toward Rhaegar. Perhaps this makes Robert hate Rhaegar all the more. 

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