Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.

[divica]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No explanation.  Just like the other changes to characters that are not the same in the show as the books perhaps.  Perhaps D&D asked if BR was the 3EC and didn't get an answer.

Maybe... I mean, given how many povs grrm introduced in the last 2 books and how stale the story has become I understand they needed to make some heavy changes (like sansa going to winterfell that could have worked) but this seems ridiculous.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Maybe... I mean, given how many povs grrm introduced in the last 2 books and how stale the story has become I understand they needed to make some heavy changes (like sansa going to winterfell that could have worked) but this seems ridiculous.

LOL!  I don't know.  Sure they have to deliver:  dead dragons, the Night's King - fireworks, bread and circuses, instant gratification...

boat sex...

 

[Faera]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Night's King

Night King. No possessive "s" in that "instant gratification" thing. 

As to why it became "Three-Eyed-Raven" over the original "Three-Eyed-Crow"... maybe it's because they thought expecting audiences to handle two different species of bird that look the same (even though they still call NW men "crows") was just too much? Because... we're idiots, apparently.

Or they thought ravens were cooler than crows? 

[divica]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  I don't know.  Sure they have to deliver:  dead dragons, the Night's King - fireworks, bread and circuses, instant gratification...

boat sex...

 

Can you imagine a season with diferent plots in KL, mereen, dorne, the vale, iron islands, winterfell, Wall, braavos, citadel and those that are travelling? It would be too manny characters with too manny locations for people to care about... If in the first seasons the biggest problem of the series was how little time we followed each story can you imagine how much time each character would have per episode?

And most fans of the books aren t really interested in several of the plots grrm introduced since AFfC... I think we can all agree that the first 3 books were masterpieces and while the last 2 books are good they are much worse than the others.

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Faera said:

Night King. No possessive "s" in that "instant gratification" thing. 

As to why it became "Three-Eyed-Raven" over the original "Three-Eyed-Crow"... maybe it's because they thought expecting audiences to handle two different species of bird that look the same (even though they still call NW men "crows") was just too much? Because... we're idiots, apparently.

Or they thought ravens were cooler than crows? 

I liked the idea that bloodraven is posing as the 3EC in the books and they aren t doing that plot more... 

[Faera]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

I liked the idea that bloodraven is posing as the 3EC in the books and they aren t doing that plot more... 

How do you mean?

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

I'm still amazed that a cave under a hill with an underground network... has a backdoor!

Weeeeeeel, now we are getting down to the basics. The GoT forum is about as dry as the General forum. So to is the Heresy thread.

The point is --- if Hodor can’t carry Bran down a sinkhole, which is the back door, no one is getting out through a the sink hole (a cavity in the ground)--- therefore Hodor isn’t gonna hold that door so that Meera can drag Bran away.

Let us look at what the old man in the cave said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II     "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."    "I'm here," Bran said, "only I'm broken. Will you … will you fix me … my legs, I mean?"/

A person who has not read the Dunk and Egg tales does not know the reference of “thousand eyes and one.”

If individuals want to speculate that the old man (125+ years) in the CotF cave is not LC Rivers aka BR or Bran’s three eyed crow it is okay with me.

Just let’s not confuse the GoT show with the ASOIAF saga.

[kissdbyfire]

Did I accidentally stumble upon the show forum? 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Faera said:

How do you mean?

I don t know...

As far as I know BR and the cotf could be a faction within the side of the ww and sent coldhands to intercept bran before he reached the real 3 eyed crow... And now want to use bran for something...

Anything is better than change crow to raven for no reason.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Did I accidentally stumble upon the show forum? 

Argh, nuttin as blatant as that. Merely a group of like minded individuals who like to spout off and spin it.

 

[Faera]

5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Let us look at what the old man in the cave said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II     "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."    "I'm here," Bran said, "only I'm broken. Will you … will you fix me … my legs, I mean?"/

A person who has not read the Dunk and Egg tales does not know the reference of “thousand eyes and one.”

If individuals want to speculate that the old man (125+ years) in the CotF cave is not LC Rivers aka BR or Bran’s three eyed crow it is okay with me.

Just let’s not confuse the GoT show with the ASOIAF saga.

4

I really just meant that when I first read ADwD I thought it weird that a cave would have a literal backdoor. As I pictured a literal door rather than what is most probably just another entrance to the cave.
 

Spoiler

Putting aside what "The Abomination" had in it, where there was a literal door, I am sceptical as to whether "shocking twist #2" will even happen there or somewhere else... like at the Wall on their way back or something.

 

As to whether the man with the CotF is Brynden Rivers AKA "Bloodraven", there's no real reason to doubt it. I have no doubt it is him. It is really only whether he is the 3EC that bugged me ever since I rethought (and overthought, aha!) the "A...crow?" line like he was surprised that Bran would use that term. Ultimately, I really, really want to see what else BR has to say in WoW (if it ever comes out *sigh*). I doubt they will ever directly broach the subject but it would be interesting to see if Brynden ever actually begins to use the term. The only reason the term exists is that it is how Bran and Jojen describe the creature, and it just sticks, like the little names Bran and Meera are always coming up for with the little shelters they find or the CotF.

The 3EC never calls itself by that name, as far as I remember, so really the only thing we have to go on is its mannerisms and personality. If it really is straightforward and BR is the 3EC, then it would be interesting to see that personality come out.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Argh, nuttin as blatant as that. Merely a group of like minded individuals who like to spout off and spin it.

 

Look who's calling the raven black.  Of course there are reasons to question the identity of the 3EC.  But you can operate with blinkers if you like.

[The Fattest Leech]

So just a quick question for those who do not think Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is the three-eyed crow.

Who, or what, do you think he/she/it is? What do you pictured in your minds eye   that fits the story or a satisfying reveal? 

I hear lots of ideas that BR =/= 3EC, but not so much as what happens after that. 

And how does this fit with my boy Bran? 

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Look who's calling the raven black. 

Caw Caw or that quork quork?

 

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Of course there are reasons to question the identity of the 3EC. 

Please share with me the reasons.

 

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But you can operate with blinkers if you like.

Blinders. Blinkers usually means warning.

 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Faera said:

As to whether the man with the CotF is Brynden Rivers AKA "Bloodraven", there's no real reason to doubt it. I have no doubt it is him.

And not only there's no reason to doubt it,, but the opposite: everything we do have so far points to Brynden Rivers =  Bloodraven = tree man in CotF cave.

11 minutes ago, Faera said:

It is really only whether he is the 3EC that bugged me ever since I rethought (and overthought, aha!) the "A...crow?" line like he was surprised that Bran would use that term.

I never really read that like this... to me it's in part not being used to talking anymore, literally as is on the page:

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words.

but it's also because...

 

11 minutes ago, Faera said:

Ultimately, I really, really want to see what else BR has to say in WoW (if it ever comes out *sigh*). I doubt they will ever directly broach the subject but it would be interesting to see if Brynden ever actually begins to use the term. The only reason the term exists is that it is how Bran and Jojen describe the creature, and it just sticks, like the little names Bran and Meera are always coming up for with the little shelters they find or the CotF.

The 3EC never calls itself by that name, as far as I remember, so really the only thing we have to go on is its mannerisms and personality. If it really is straightforward and BR is the 3EC, then it would be interesting to see that personality come out.

of this here. The 3EC handle is something Bran and the Reeds use, but Bloodraven doesn't know this. So, imo, BR's hesitation when Bran asks him if he is the 3EC makes perfect sense.

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So just a quick question for those who do not think Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is the three-eyed crow.

Who, or what, do you think he/she/it is? What do you pictured in your minds eye   that fits the story or a satisfying reveal? 

I hear lots of ideas that BR =/= 3EC, but not so much as what happens after that. 

And how does this fit with my boy Bran? 

Ravenous Reader summarizes upthread:

 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ravenous Reader summarizes upthread:

 

In general, is everyone (or majority) of 3EC believers thinking that Jon is the 3EC? I am not trying to assume anything here, just trying to catch up.

 

Also, from that linked post of RR, she says:

So, if the 'oak recalls the acorn', perhaps the oak (Jon, the oldest brother = 3EC) calls back the acorn (Bran, his younger brother) from death, who in turn dreams the oak who calls him back from death ('dreaming the oak' is the equivalent of the weirwood sapling dream, sent from the future in the cave... but dreamt in the past in the crypt), etc. etc. etc!  

There is no locatable source to magic.  The eye-opening relationship is reciprocal and paradoxical.  One greenseer opens the third eye of another, the very same who opened the third eye of the former, enabling him to open the third eye of the latter.  This is perhaps an alternate explanation to why the third eye of the crow in the coma dream only appears after Bran has opened his own third eye -- not because the three-eyed crow is Bran himself, but because the act of the three-eyed crow opening his own third eye is contingent upon Bran opening his, and vice versa!  Deary me -- this is convoluted.  

The green part I can get behind, that it takes a greenseer to open the eyes of the next. The acorn seed is strong and all that jazz. However, the closed loop idea that the former opens the latter, who opens the same former does seem convoluted, as RR claims.

I also agree that so far there is no locatable source to magic, and that what we see on page might be more akin to one source and the outcome is a result of choices. A reflection of one's heart, so to speak.

[The Fattest Leech]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I never really read that like this... to me it's in part not being used to talking anymore, literally as is on the page:

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words.

but it's also because...

Interesting and I never thought of it that way. This makes me wonder if it could somehow be linked to the losing oneself idea that Meera warns Bran about when he spends too long inside Summer? We know it takes some yet-to-be determined amount of time to lose oneself in a variety of animals when you slip into them, or even second life them. Since time for a tree is much longer than an old meatbag body, I wonder if this is how Bloodraven has managed to live to 125?

Just spit-balling, but maybe whether you slip into another animal or into a tree, you are still slipping... away, and that is why the weird talk from BR???

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Interesting and I never thought of it that way. This makes me wonder if it could somehow be linked to the losing oneself idea that Meera warns Bran about when he spends too long inside Summer?

Yes, that's exactly it. I think it makes sense, or, it's an explanation (all of it) that satisfies me. I'm also aware I could be totally off.

 

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The green part I can get behind, that it takes a greenseer to open the eyes of the next. The acorn seed is strong and all that jazz. However, the closed loop idea that the former opens the latter, who opens the same former does seem convoluted, as RR claims.

I think that Martin is drawing from the Old Norse concept of time, the tree and the well:

Quote

The Well of Urd corresponds to the past tense. It is the reservoir of completed or ongoing actions that nourish the tree and influence its growth. Yggdrasil, in turn, corresponds to the present tense, that which is being actualized here and now.

What of intention and necessity, then? This is the water that permeates the image, flowing up from the well into the tree, dripping from the leaves of the tree as dew, and returning to the well, where it then seeps back up into the tree.^[5]

Here, time is cyclical rather than linear. The present returns to the past, where it retroactively changes the past. The new past, in turn, is reabsorbed into a new present, whose originality is an outgrowth of the give-and-take between the waters of the well and the the waters of the tree.

https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/yggdrasil-and-the-well-of-urd/

I think this is demonstrated when Weir-bran opens Ghost-Jon's third eye before he has passed beyond the Wall and is wed to the tree.

Jon is the sibling most concerned that Bran should live and the 3EC tells Bran why he must live.  Once Jon is freed from his own constraints or becomes unbound by time; it makes sense to me that he would save Bran and act as his guide. 

Quote

In contrast to the Greek concept of fate, however, all beings who are subject to destiny have some degree of agency in shaping their own destiny and the destinies of others – this is the dew that falls back into the well from the branches of the tree, accordingly reshaping the past and its influence upon the present. All beings do this passively; those who practice magic do it actively.

It's Bran and Jon who are most invested in each other's destiny or in what each will become.  We also know that Jon hasn't fully embraced his own power yet and that the Wall itself is a power that he can draw upon.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

 In re-reading Bran Vras, he suggests that Robert Arryn who is subject to night-terrors, may have been visited by BR.  If this is true, then BR may not appear as a crow:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

"After," Sansa said. "First you must see Lord Nestor."

"Lord Nestor has a mole," he said, squirming. Robert was afraid of men with moles. "Mommy said he was dreadful."

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Bat.html