Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 In re-reading Bran Vras, he suggests that Robert Arryn who is subject to night-terrors, may have been visited by BR.  If this is true, then BR may not appear as a crow:

This is something I meant to bring up and didn't... 

BR may be the 3EC and not know it. If his dream encounters w/ Bran occur as a meeting of souls, or something like astral projection, or whatever, the visual we have may just be how coma Bran's brain is processing information and creating images to go w/ it. 

[The Fattest Leech]

I admit that even though Brynden Bloodraven Rivers is my hands down favorite character, he still intrigues me because he is such an enigma, and I like that in a character. I make no claims to have BR and his arc with Bran all figured out, but what has come to my mind in the recent past is why and how GRRM introduced him into the series as a whole (taking in to account the ancillary novels) and why GRRM would have this same character live beyond his years and into the current day story and pair up with a Stark.

The only thing theme that seems to run through all of the books that feature Bloodraven is the protection of the realm and, of course, the Blackfyres. History repeats, just with a twist. We have Blackfyres, and black fires, and even Blackfyre about to show up in Westeros once again (not to be confused with the mummer's dragon). I can't help but think the three-eyed crow is Bloodraven, and Bloodraven was tapped open as the previous greenseer does to the next, and that we are about to see another Dance of Dragons/Blackfyre battle happen. I do believe GRRM planned for another Dance of Dragons as part of his broad strokes plotting. Brynden is also a Blackwood, and we know trees and fire don't always have a great a relationship .

"There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."

But, I could be wrong about this.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is something I meant to bring up and didn't... 

BR may be the 3EC and not know it. If his dream encounters w/ Bran occur as a meeting of souls, or something like astral projection, or whatever, the visual we have may just be how coma Bran's brain is processing information and creating images to go w/ it. 

Well, I respect your opinion.  If BR is so powerful after 125 years, how can he not choose the form he takes in a vision?  His identity seems more tied to the tree at this point than a crow.  I agree the meetings are mind to mind or soul to soul but I think Jon is the one who comes in disguise to Bran rather than BR.

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say …

It isn't Robb that Jon can help, it's Bran.  Jon's identity is tied to the crow at this point.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"It was just a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. "I can't fly. I can't even run."

"Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. "I know a story about a crow."

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"I've always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell."

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

 I also consider Jon to be one of BR's 'prentice boys.  Bran is the apprentice greenseer; Arya the apprentice faceless man and Jon is the apprentice lord commander and possibly his agent as the 3EC.   

[The Fattest Leech]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think that Martin is drawing from the Old Norse concept of time, the tree and the well:

I know this part well (I have the book that the linked blog is written for ). I just wonder how much is being used literally in ASOAIF. It seems the Tyrion on Rhoyne scene is the most we may get of this. Bran may be doing some traveling, and if he is, then someone like Jon might be able to understand him.  There are so many small butterfly moments that can have an impact on other characters that I often find it hard to go along with a whole time loop idea in full. I know George has used time travel in past stories, but they are clearly time travel stories and the butterfly effect is always addressed (and happens)... and the story is short and only focuses on a handful of characters.

If there is a part of that book that does apply, it is this:

What of intention and necessity, then? This is the water that permeates the image, flowing up from the well into the tree, dripping from the leaves of the tree as dew, and returning to the well, where it then seeps back up into the tree.

Here, time is cyclical rather than linear. The present returns to the past, where it retroactively changes the past. The new past, in turn, is reabsorbed into a new present, whose originality is an outgrowth of the give-and-take between the waters of the well and the the waters of the tree.

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon is the sibling most concerned that Bran should live and the 3EC tells Bran why he must live.  Once Jon is freed from his own constraints or becomes unbound by time; it makes sense to me that he would save Bran and act as his guide. 

It's Bran and Jon who are most invested in each other's destiny or in what each will become.  We also know that Jon hasn't fully embraced his own power yet and that the Wall itself is a power that he can draw upon.

I do absolutely agree with this, especially to the bolded. No argument from the Leech on this one.

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 In re-reading Bran Vras, he suggests that Robert Arryn who is subject to night-terrors, may have been visited by BR.  If this is true, then BR may not appear as a crow:

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Bat.html

 

I know this name Bran Vras from somewhere (???), so I will most definitely check it out before I comment any further, especially if it fits with this topic. Thanks for sharing.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 I also consider Jon to be one of BR's 'prentice boys.  Bran is the apprentice greenseer; Arya the apprentice faceless man and Jon is the apprentice lord commander and possibly his agent as the 3EC.   

Ok, one more before I really have to get off of here and finish writing my own story for tomorrow's meeting

I do agree with this as well. Jon has more of the "Odin" symbolism than even Bloodraven does, just as Bran seems to be more advanced than Bloodraven was at Bran's age/point of training, and again this goes back to the previous comment of Jon and Bran are most invested in each other's destiny (or future mission, etc).

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I know George has used time travel in past stories, but they are clearly time travel stories and the butterfly effect is always addressed (and happens)... and the story is short and only focuses on a handful of characters.

I think there are limitations for time travel.  Jon and Bran occupy the same space in the present timeline and Bran has established a connection to Jon through Ghost and I think their destiny is bound together.  I don't think Bran can influence just anyone without some kind of green man ability. Although I question whether Howland Reed was influenced at some point.  He is still alive as far as we know.

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Caw Caw or that quork quork?

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A Clash of Kings - Bran II

She should never have talked about the wolf dreams, Bran thought as Hodor carried him up the steps to his bedchamber. He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

"Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?" asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire.

"My sword is Valyrian steel. The Old Bear gave it to me."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

Qhorin's mouth tightened as he followed its flight with his eyes. "Here is as good a place as any to make a stand," he declared. "The mouth of the cave shelters us from above, and they cannot get behind us without passing through the mountain. Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?"

"Yes," he said.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"… to defend the Wall," Jon finished stubbornly, "not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you."

"Cannot or will not?" The cords in the king's neck stood out sharp as swords. "I offered you a name." 

"I have a name, Your Grace."

 

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

"A lordling," Pyp observed to Jon. "Southron, most like near Highgarden." Pyp had traveled the Seven Kingdoms with a mummers' troupe, and bragged that he could tell what you were and where you'd been born just from the sound of your voice.

Jon's identity isn't just tied to the Night's Watch as a crow; he is also the sword in the darkness. 

BR is well past his best before date; essentially a corpse attached to a tree; he doesn't 'stink of life', there is very little life left in him and his power is feeble.  When he speaks to Bran; he croaks and whispers.  He isn't the one speaking to Bran in a voice sharp as swords.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, Faera said:

I really just meant that when I first read ADwD I thought it weird that a cave would have a literal backdoor. As I pictured a literal door rather than what is most probably just another entrance to the cave.

I’ve pondered this myself, we have the back door described to us, and yet also the underground river/caverns which may provide another entrance/exit... it’s hard to imagine a literal door at either.

Now I’ve long doubted that BR is the 3eC, but more importantly compared to some others is that I suspect BR may be behind the return of the others.

Rhaegar believed at one point he was the Prince that was Promised because of a prophesy we haven’t really heard. I suspect this prophesy has to do with ice and fire... and it’s possible BR may have seen himself as the fulfillment of this prophesy, given his rare heritage of Targaryen and Blackwood(First Men) blood. 

Given that I see to many parallels between the icy “heart of winter” Bran sees in his falling 3eC dream and Bloodraven’s frozen lair, I don’t think it’s a coincidence. Not to mention that BR is philosophically the opposite of Ned re: being afraid and sentencing/swinging the sword.

 

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Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. 

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

 

The spires of ice are the grove of frozen Weirwoods, and of course those weirwoods have impaled the bones of a thousand dreamers.

 

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The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years."

 

If they are in fact the same, not only do I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Bran will have to make an escape in the near future, but at some point characters may need to return to deal with BR and company. This makes the multiple routs in and out of the lair make more sense.

14 hours ago, Faera said:

The 3EC never calls itself by that name, as far as I remember, so really the only thing we have to go on is its mannerisms and personality. If it really is straightforward and BR is the 3EC, then it would be interesting to see that personality come out.

I’ve heard many people suggest that maybe BR doesn’t know he’s appearing as a crow in Bran’s dreams. I don’t find this convincing in the least, first because Bran makes it quite clear he knows how he appears in his own dreams. Second because I still haven’t seen evidence that BR can talk through dreams at all... the Weirwood dreams Bran has feature a Weirwood trying to call to him, in a way reminiscent of how we see BR struggle to speak. BR even tells Bran that those he’s tried to reach never hear him, and he always uses words like “come to you” when describing his interactions with Bran and never actively says he spoke.

[Faera]

Hmmm, interesting points laid out above. While I might not be sold on the idea of Jon being the 3EC, I am a sucker for Bran-Jon intertwined fates. I really want to come back at this, sword swinging (aha!) So, I think it is time to bust the old books out again and have another think some Bran-Jon stuff. That said, I could blather on about all of your ideas for days! 

Just based on what has been said here, ahead of a proper re-read, the idea that Jon might be ‘one of Bloodraven’s apprentices’ is interesting. It makes me wonder if Jon might have been someone else BR considered training before he settled on Bran. On the face of it, that are a few coincidences that occurred in Jon’s life that weirdly parallels Bloodraven: bastards (of Targaryen heritage, possibly if RLJ is true), joined the Night’s Watch and rose to LC, Jon almost lost an eye (OK, that’s a stretch of a parallel), Ghost=BR=Weirwood aesthetics, just silly little things like that...

Heck, if we go down tin-foil valley where it is speculated the direwolves were sent by BR, he might have been testing out all the Stark children to see which one would show the most promise or whose powers would be heightened enough to hear his call. 

One last thought... if the 3EC tends to visit people who are close to death, based on how it appeared to Bran and Jojen, it will be very interesting if the 3EC comes into play with Jon’s stabbing. Given GRRM was purposely vague as whether Jon actually “dies” or whether he could be kept on the verge of death while trying to get his soul to return to his own body from Ghost (I really hope Bran is involved with this, not Melisandre though I know it is probably wishful thinking based of Leaf’s little warning to Bran...), if he has also has a 3EC dream, finally accepting what he is. Ooooo maybe the 3EC guides him down to the crypts so he can finish his dream? Or, if @LynnS is correct, if Jon’s soul communicates with Bran in the form of a crow...

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

.I’ve heard many people suggest that maybe BR doesn’t know he’s appearing as a crow in Bran’s dreams. I don’t find this convincing in the least, first because Bran makes it quite clear he knows how he appears in his own dreams. Second because I still haven’t seen evidence that BR can talk through dreams at all... the Weirwood dreams Bran has feature a Weirwood trying to call to him, in a way reminiscent of how we see BR struggle to speak. BR even tells Bran that those he’s tried to reach never hear him, and he always uses words like “come to you” when describing his interactions with Bran and never actively says he spoke.

Yes, precisely.  He as much tells Bran that he couldn't come to him.  The 3EC comes in his place as his aide de camp.  Bloodraven's 'watch' is nearly over and someone has to replace him as Bran's quide and protector.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

Lynn, I look for context when I read this saga. I have made many mistakes during my time on the forum. People have pointed out some of those mistakes. When that happens I have to eat crow and say yes I messed up.

The quote you supplied.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII     "Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?" asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire.    "My sword is Valyrian steel. The Old Bear gave it to me."

CoK is the second book of five with supposedly two more books to go.    My reading of that chapter is that Halfhand is asking Jon how sharp his sword is because Halfhand already has it in his mind that either they both will die or Halfhand is to sacrifice himself so that Jon will live to carry word back to the Watch. Halfhand wants to know if Jon’s sword is sharp so that his death will be quick.

Again in that same chapter Halfhand asks if Jon’s sword is sharp.

But when they emerged back into the light long hours later, the eagle was waiting for them, perched on a dead tree a hundred feet up the slope. Ghost went bounding up the rocks after it, but the bird flapped its wings and took to the air.     Qhorin's mouth tightened as he followed its flight with his eyes. "Here is as good a place as any to make a stand," he declared. "The mouth of the cave shelters us from above, and they cannot get behind us without passing through the mountain. Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?"    "Yes," he said./

Even when Ghost's teeth closed savagely around the ranger's calf, somehow Qhorin kept his feet. But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon's slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.     Ghost's muzzle was dripping red, but only the point of the bastard blade was stained, the last half inch. Jon pulled the direwolf away and knelt with one arm around him. The light was already fading in Qhorin's eyes. ". . . sharp," he said, lifting his maimed fingers. Then his hand fell, and he was gone.    He knew, he thought numbly. He knew what they would ask of me./

 

I’m merely putting that out there so you understand where I am coming from. From what I have read LC Rivers aka BR is Bran’s three eyed crow.  Somewhere in this thread I posted two long winded posts as to my ideas.

I once made a statement to a poster, “You and I don’t read the same books.” It offended the poster which was not my intent.  You and I are going to have to disagree on this, which is okay. I will leave you and the others to discuss the topic as you see fit. Until the next time ----

Happy Monday.  Cheers.

Maybe later in the evening I can come back and discuss the below.

59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

BR is well past his best before date; essentially a corpse attached to a tree; he doesn't 'stink of life', there is very little life left in him and his power is feeble.  When he speaks to Bran; he croaks and whispers.  He isn't the one speaking to Bran in a voice sharp as swords.

 

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Lynn, I look for context when I read this saga. I have made many mistakes during my time on the forum. People have pointed out some of those mistakes. When that happens I have to eat crow and say yes I messed up.

I’m merely putting that out there so you understand where I am coming from. From what I have read LC Rivers aka BR is Bran’s three eyed crow.  Somewhere in this thread I posted two long winded posts as to my ideas.

I once made a statement to a poster, “You and I don’t read the same books.” It offended the poster which was not my intent.  You and I are going to have to disagree on this, which is okay. I will leave you and the others to discuss the topic as you see fit. Until the next time ----

Happy Monday.  Cheers.

Maybe later in the evening I can come back and discuss the below.

 

I don't have a problem with how someone engages with the material. Of course there is a context.  I look for sub-text or alternate frames. I ask how something could be true rather than limit the options.  Martin is an intuitive thinker, someone who intends to outsmart us all.  So I don't take much on it's surface value.   Most of the arguments on this forum stem from the difference between intuitive and analytical thinkers.  Both are required to figure this out.

This isn't a competition for me.  I'm not looking for anyone to eat crow.  When I think I have an answer to something; I check my hubris at the door and think again.  Which is probably a function of my age because I'm no spring chicken.  I'm not even sure I'll make it to the next book, never mind Martin.  So yes, I want some answers. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He as much tells Bran that he couldn't come to him.  The 3EC comes in his place as his aide de camp.  Bloodraven's 'watch' is nearly over and someone has to replace him as Bran's quide and protector.

So I just don’t buy the whole mentor-Student narative we are being fed...

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"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now youare come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

So we’ve already gone over how Bloodraven doesn’t understand Bran’s question and mistakenly assumes he’s talking about BR’s time as a Brother of the Nights Watch. Which is a huge red flag in itself, since the Night’s Watch serves for life, and Nan warned Bran that he is safe from monsters as long as the men of the watch stay true, BR has not stayed true to his vows.

But it also bears repeating that I’m not sure this “And now youare come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.” is referring to anything other than BR’s hour growing late. I suspect “you are come to me at last” is highlighting that BR has been looking forward to this. We see Varamyr take another person’s body, and I think this is what BR will try to do to Bran. 

After all when Meera asks Coldhands about the three eyed crow, she asks two questions and gets two answers... who sent you? The last greenseer. Who is the three eyed crow? Brandon Stark.

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"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?" 

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark." 

"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I just don’t buy the whole mentor-Student narative we are being fed...

So we’ve already gone over how Bloodraven doesn’t understand Bran’s question and mistakenly assumes he’s talking about BR’s time as a Brother of the Nights Watch. Which is a huge red flag in itself, since the Night’s Watch serves for life, and Nan warned Bran that he is safe from monsters as long as the men of the watch stay true, BR has not stayed true to his vows.

But it also bears repeating that I’m not sure this “And now youare come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.” is referring to anything other than BR’s hour growing late. I suspect “you are come to me at last” is highlighting that BR has been looking forward to this. We see Varamyr take another person’s body, and I think this is what BR will try to do to Bran. 

After all when Meera asks Coldhands about the three eyed crow, she asks two questions and gets two answers... who sent you? The last greenseer. Who is the three eyed crow? Brandon Stark.

 

I have thought about it and you could be right.  It's also curious that Leaf has to ask Bran what he saw during his initiation and I wonder how much they know about BR's tree dreams or who he contacts.  I'm not sure that BR is operating strictly on their agenda and why or how he ended up enthroned on a tree from which he couldn't escape unless it was the pursuit of power or magic. 

I still question what is going on with Euron and I wonder if he has been prepped for body snatching.  

[Faera]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I’ve pondered this myself, we have the back door described to us, and yet also the underground river/caverns which may provide another entrance/exit... it’s hard to imagine a literal door at either.

 

It feels like both the underground and the "backdoor" will be utilised at some point, They wouldn't have been included if they weren't going to be used or become important. It makes me wonder whether that cave was once a known entrance into the underground caverns...

But yeah, I cannot imagine a literal door.

Quote

 

Now I’ve long doubted that BR is the 3eC, but more importantly compared to some others is that I suspect BR may be behind the return of the others.

Rhaegar believed at one point he was the Prince that was Promised because of a prophesy we haven’t really heard. I suspect this prophesy has to do with ice and fire... and it’s possible BR may have seen himself as the fulfillment of this prophesy, given his rare heritage of Targaryen and Blackwood(First Men) blood. 

[...]

If they are in fact the same, not only do I think it’s reasonable to conclude that Bran will have to make an escape in the near future, but at some point characters may need to return to deal with BR and company. This makes the multiple routs in and out of the lair make more sense.

 

7

I see. So, do you suspect that BR is one of the main "villains" of the story if he needs to be "dealt with"?

Also interesting you raised the BR connection to Ice and Fire. Sort of brings me back to my thoughts about parallels between BR and Jon.

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Given that I see to many parallels between the icy “heart of winter” Bran sees in his falling 3eC dream and Bloodraven’s frozen lair, I don’t think it’s a coincidence. Not to mention that BR is philosophically the opposite of Ned re: being afraid and sentencing/swinging the sword.

The spires of ice are the grove of frozen Weirwoods, and of course those weirwoods have impaled the bones of a thousand dreamers.

5

Honestly, I had never thought about the parallels between the spikes of "impaled dreamers" and the countless bones in BR's cave. I have often wondered if the bones in BR's cave are old sacrifices, former greenseers (and their familiars) or both and that Bloodraven himself was a victim of the people being lured into that cave to "feed the tree", as it were... but these quotes have suggested another way of looking at it... Hmmmm....

Quote

 

I’ve heard many people suggest that maybe BR doesn’t know he’s appearing as a crow in Bran’s dreams. I don’t find this convincing in the least, first because Bran makes it quite clear he knows how he appears in his own dreams.

 

 

I do agree that the notion that BR could be completely unaware that he looks like a 3EC never swayed me either. Plus, when Bran is using the weirwood to look through Winterfell history, he is very conscious of the fact he is the heart tree -- both while awake and sleeping. That said, to be fair, Bran doesn't seem to realise he appeared as a tree from Jon's point of view of their shared dream. He seems to indicate that he thinks he was speaking through Ghost...

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Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that... -- A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

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While Jon seems to have seen Bran as a face in a heart tree with three eyes.

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It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?
Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs. -- A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

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The mention of three eyes, the crow and the smells of earth, stone and death (the crypts) are an indicator that this is Jon's POV of the dream Bran speaks of, as Jon never specifies it is Bran's face he sees -- just "his brother's", which might even indicate that Ghost is recognising Summer's face in the tree. (i.e. Bran having a wolf's head, aha!) Better still, because Ghost is an albino, if Bran really is manifesting as a wolf's face in a heart tree then it would probably look like a doppelgänger Ghost.

It is hard to take the visuals the dream too literally because of Ghost!Jon watching a weirwood tree physically growing too fast for nature and obtaining a face without it getting carved in. So, it seems like the whatever Jon is seeing through Ghost is not really there though it is sparking his other sense as well. Where Bran's physical body is (the crypts) and spirit is (in Summer) is all carrying through in the scent. It is so interesting! Not least because it might suggest that Greenseers always appear to other people looking like trees.
 

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Second because I still haven’t seen evidence that BR can talk through dreams at all... the Weirwood dreams Bran has feature a Weirwood trying to call to him, in a way reminiscent of how we see BR struggle to speak. BR even tells Bran that those he’s tried to reach never hear him, and he always uses words like “come to you” when describing his interactions with Bran and never actively says he spoke.

 

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Doesn't Bran say the tree calls his name? Though, I agree that the fact the Weirwood says very little other than say his name could indicate his difficulty in speaking. Plus, BR never actually states that he spoke to Bran -- only that the saw and heard.

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A person who has not read the Dunk and Egg tales does not know the reference of “thousand eyes and one.”

If individuals want to speculate that the old man (125+ years) in the CotF cave is not LC Rivers aka BR or Bran’s three eyed crow it is okay with me.

Just let’s not confuse the GoT show with the ASOIAF saga.

No, they (me too) think that the man bound to a tree, is Brynden Rivers, though he wasn't that three-eyed bird, that appeared in Bran's dreams. They think that the bird is someone else.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And not only there's no reason to doubt it,, but the opposite: everything we do have so far points to Brynden Rivers =  Bloodraven = tree man in CotF cave.

Though it seems that the man in a tree has different goal than the 3EC. Tree-man wants to imprison Bran, and make him possesed/bound to a tree, same way as it was done to body of Brynden Rivers. While 3EC, in Jojen's dream, was trying to free Bran from stone chains, that were binding him to the ground.

CotF wants the Tree's roots grow thru Bran, and make him part of Weirwood network. I think it's too late for Bran to escape from them. Because they fed to him that paste from weirwood seeds, infused with something that looked like blood. So I think that what will happen later, is that the tree seeds will start to grow inside Bran's body. And roots of those seeds will grow thru his body, and into the ground, and interwine with other roots of Weirwood network. And thus Bran will be trapped. And it will hurt. A lot. Tree roots growing thru flesh and bones won't be pleasant. He will become parasited by a Tree.

And it is very suspicious that CotF were everyday feeding them with meat and blood. Looks like they were preparing them to be eaten by the Tree.

The blood in weirwood seed paste was Meera's or Jojen's.

But Bran will use his secret (ability to warg into Hodor) to get out of that cave. Probably Hodor will rip out roots, that will be chaining Bran's body to the ground, and he will carry him outside. Probably thru underground river.

Though the roots will be still growing out of Bran's body. Roots and then branches. The tree growing from within Bran, will use his flesh and blood as nutrients, to feed itself. And eventually Bran will be completely engulfed by the Tree. He will manage to get back home, though he will end up as a weirwood tree, planted in Winterfell's garden.

And yes, I watched too many horror movies

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

It feels like both the underground and the "backdoor" will be utilised at some point, They wouldn't have been included if they weren't going to be used or become important. It makes me wonder whether that cave was once a known entrance into the underground caverns...

But yeah, I cannot imagine a literal door.

Not even the black gate had a real door, so I think we’re on the same page here...

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I see. So, do you suspect that BR is one of the main "villains" of the story if he needs to be "dealt with"?

Yes, in my head I see him as the other side of the coin to Jon, and representing the opposite ideals as Ned. 

He’s a man who knows no fear.

Casts the sentence but doesn’t swing the sword.

And he breaks all the laws of the old gods: incest, oathbreaking, kinslaying, and breaking guest right.

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Also interesting you raised the BR connection to Ice and Fire. Sort of brings me back to my thoughts about parallels between BR and Jon.

Yes, I think there are a lot of parallels here and I’d love to know more about BRs story especially in regards to love and duty...

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Honestly, I had never thought about the parallels between the spikes of "impaled dreamers" and the countless bones in BR's cave. I have often wondered if the bones in BR's cave are old sacrifices, former greenseers (and their familiars) or both and that Bloodraven himself was a victim of the people being lured into that cave to "feed the tree", as it were... but these quotes have suggested another way of looking at it... Hmmmm....

Part of me really wants to believe that the Others are a threat mankind has brought upon itself as opposed to just a supernatural apocalyptic force on a timer.

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I do agree that the notion that BR could be completely unaware that he looks like a 3EC never swayed me either. Plus, when Bran is using the weirwood to look through Winterfell history, he is very conscious of the fact he is the heart tree -- both while awake and sleeping. That said, to be fair, Bran doesn't seem to realise he appeared as a tree from Jon's point of view of their shared dream. He seems to indicate that he thinks he was speaking through Ghost...

While Jon seems to have seen Bran as a face in a heart tree with three eyes.

Jon is having a wolf dream, so he appears as ghost. Bran is in the Winterfell Crypt, which, like BRs lair, is located below a Wierwood and likely has roots growing through the bones below. So Bran appearing as a Westwood would be consistent with Bloodraven appearing as a weirwood (especially since Bran appears with an extra eye to Jon, and the Weirwood in Bran’s dreams seems to have two eyes, BRs one plus an extra.

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The way the shadows shifted made it seem as if the walls were moving too. Bran saw great white snakes slithering in and out of the earth around him, and his heart thumped in fear. He wondered if they had blundered into a nest of milk snakes or giant grave worms, soft and pale and squishy. Grave worms have teeth.

Hodor saw them too. "Hodor," he whimpered, reluctant to go on. But when the girl child stopped to let them catch her, the torchlight steadied, and Bran realized that the snakes were only white roots like the one he'd hit his head on. "It's weirwood roots," he said. "Remember the heart tree in the godswood, Hodor? The white tree with the red leaves? A tree can't hurt you." 

"Hodor." Hodor plunged ahead, hurrying after the child and her torch, deeper into the earth. They passed another branching, and another, then came into an echoing cavern as large as the great hall of Winterfell, with stone teeth hanging from its ceiling and more poking up through its floor. The child in the leafy cloak wove a path through them. From time to time she stopped and waved her torch at them impatiently. This way, it seemed to say, this way, this way, faster.

 

Reminiscent of Dany’s Dragon dream... faster!

 

 

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The mention of three eyes, the crow and the smells of earth, stone and death (the crypts) are an indicator that this is Jon's POV of the dream Bran speaks of, as Jon never specifies it is Bran's face he sees -- just "his brother's", which might even indicate that Ghost is recognising Summer's face in the tree. (i.e. Bran having a wolf's head, aha!) Better still, because Ghost is an albino, if Bran really is manifesting as a wolf's face in a heart tree then it would probably look like a doppelgänger Ghost.

Interesting... I’ll need to think about it, as at some level the connection does appear to be through the wolves.

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It is hard to take the visuals the dream too literally because of Ghost!Jon watching a weirwood tree physically growing too fast for nature and obtaining a face without it getting carved in.

I’m not totally sure the faces on the Weirwoods were “carved” back in the day or grown...

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So, it seems like the whatever Jon is seeing through Ghost is not really there though it is sparking his other sense as well. Where Bran's physical body is (the crypts) and spirit is (in Summer) is all carrying through in the scent. It is so interesting! Not least because it might suggest that Greenseers always appear to other people looking like trees.

Like I said above, i agree, I think this makes sense.

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Doesn't Bran say the tree calls his name? Though, I agree that the fact the Weirwood says very little other than say his name could indicate his difficulty in speaking. Plus, BR never actually states that he spoke to Bran -- only that the saw and heard.

The tree calls to him, but doesn’t seem to speak... also it strikes me that the crow seems to be trying to stop Bran from answering the tree...

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He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

Calling... not speaking like the three eyed crow or like Bran does with Jon.

Also, the pecking at his face, reminds me of the crow taking the memory of Jaime throwing him when it says, you don’t need that now!

Almost like it’s trying to save bran from the tree...

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Calling... not speaking like the three eyed crow or like Bran does with Jon.

Also, the pecking at his face, reminds me of the crow taking the memory of Jaime throwing him when it says, you don’t need that now!

Almost like it’s trying to save bran from the tree...

It brings to mind the possibility that others have had visitations from BR.  Robert Arryn is one candidate since he suffers from night terrors, not unlike Bran and Tyrion.  Tyrion controls these visitations with alcohol while Robert is given a drug to sleep.  Which probably isn't the best thing in the situation where altered states provide a doorway.  We're told that Robert is afraid of men with moles on their faces and this gives his obsession with letting the bad man fly out the moon door another meaning.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have thought about it and you could be right. 

The key difference though is that Varamyr looses the gift when he enters a body that doesn’t have the power to skin change... Bloodraven is so interested in Bran because he will be able to use his natural powers if he takes his body, as opposed to just anyone, even a lesser skinchanger.

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It's also curious that Leaf has to ask Bran what he saw during his initiation and I wonder how much they know about BR's tree dreams or who he contacts.  I'm not sure that BR is operating strictly on their agenda and why or how he ended up enthroned on a tree from which he couldn't escape unless it was the pursuit of power or magic. 

I still question what is going on with Euron and I wonder if he has been prepped for body snatching.  

I actually think it’s interesting that Bran is told to look out the eyes of the Weirwoods above Bloodraven’s lair, but instead he looks out of the Winterfell heart tree instead.

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"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see." 

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

 

Now Bloodraven plays this off as a lesson, but was it? It seems to me it was a test, is Bran ready... not yet.

The gift is something which requires awakening, a traumatic event, a fall... but it appears to also rely on training knowledge and practice.

 

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"I saw him." Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. "He was cleaning Ice."

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is whatyou saw." 

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

 

 

 

 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

This here is certainly suggestive.  You and I - the both of us together?