Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Lady Dacey]

I don't know why my last comment was all inside a quote, sorry

 

[Lady Dacey]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Hear, hear!

Thanks both of you! 

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Uh, I have a question I'm not sure is ralated to this topic... Tom in Riverrun. Do you guys belive he abandoned the Brotherhood, or he's there on a mission? 

Yeah, Tom is a spy! on a mission. Another thing that links this is that the Queen O’whores (not Cersei, but the “camp follower”—- my favorite Jaime jape) has Robb’s crown when Jaime meets her and *whatever Frey that was. Jaime takes Robb’s crown back from that Frey and the Q O’W’s, but then we see Stoneheart with it later. So, between that and the fires at night, lots of information is being communicated around the land. 

@Curled Finger I have never been a great Catelyn supporter either, while also not feeling the need to get rabid about her, but I hope (for literary’s sake) that GRRM left even a tad skosh of humanity in her before she has her final death- which I hope that mercy is delivered by Arya to the Mother Merciless. Not as torture, but so she can recognize that never ending circle of revenge is not that way to handle your life. I know the eye glimmer thing is not 100%, but hey, there are way worse theories on this forum that are far thinner. I’ll be happy just to read how LSH progresses 

[divica]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, Tom is a spy! on a mission. Another thing that links this is that the Queen O’whores (not Cersei, but the “camp follower”—- my favorite Jaime jape) has Robb’s crown when Jaime meets her and *whatever Frey that was. Jaime takes Robb’s crown back from that Frey and the Q O’W’s, but then we see Stoneheart with it later. So, between that and the fires at night, lots of information is being communicated around the land. 

@Curled Finger I have never been a great Catelyn supporter either, while also not feeling the need to get rabid about her, but I hope (for literary’s sake) that GRRM left even a tad skosh of humanity in her before she has her final death- which I hope that mercy is delivered by Arya to the Mother Merciless. Not as torture, but so she can recognize that never ending circle of revenge is not that way to handle your life. I know the eye glimmer thing is not 100%, but hey, there are way worse theories on this forum that are far thinner. I’ll be happy just to read how LSH progresses 

So how many members do you think that the BwB has? And if you think the have such a network that they are spreading false rumours about themselves?

[Lady Dacey]

How do they communicate though? They certainly don't have ravens or the like. And at least under Beric's command even between them information didn't travel easy, and that was a strategy "can't tell what you don't know".

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

So how many members do you think that the BwB has? And if you think the have such a network that they are spreading false rumours about themselves?

Sorry, I am drawing a blank about the rumors? Which rumors? I’m sure it’s just me drawing a blank because I am hiding out away from my son while he is at a party. He can’t be seen with his mom, and junk 

I will say that rumors play a HUGE part of this entire story- from Aerys and Rhaegar, to the “terrible” wildilings, to what the maesters spread... so, maybe 

sorry, forgot your first question. It’s hard to say how many followers that BWB have, but the camp followers are part of them, as are some innkeeps. Both of which have access to the drunken men who spill all when they get a little wine or whinny. 

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, Tom is a spy! on a mission. Another thing that links this is that the Queen O’whores (not Cersei, but the “camp follower”—- my favorite Jaime jape) has Robb’s crown when Jaime meets her and *whatever Frey that was. Jaime takes Robb’s crown back from that Frey and the Q O’W’s, but then we see Stoneheart with it later. So, between that and the fires at night, lots of information is being communicated around the land. 

@Curled Finger I have never been a great Catelyn supporter either, while also not feeling the need to get rabid about her, but I hope (for literary’s sake) that GRRM left even a tad skosh of humanity in her before she has her final death- which I hope that mercy is delivered by Arya to the Mother Merciless. Not as torture, but so she can recognize that never ending circle of revenge is not that way to handle your life. I know the eye glimmer thing is not 100%, but hey, there are way worse theories on this forum that are far thinner. I’ll be happy just to read how LSH progresses 

Now is that crown Robb's or Jeyne's?  I thought it was Jeyne's crown at Riverrun and Robb's crown is the 1 LSH plays with. 

To Catelyn:  I saw an interview with GRRM on YouTube--told you it was a great source for stuff you would never think to look for!--where he spoke of Catelyn being the most polarizing character he's written.   Something like that.  He said he was surprised at how many people didn't get Cat.   He should go back and read her!  As for me, I don't care.  Love her, hate her--she's a character we all need to be able to discuss like people who are old enough to read the material.   I'm just explaining my position for the sake of full disclosure.   No one will ever convince me she was a good mother or even that she really loved her children.  I say the same of Cersei.  I won't be swayed by that route.  The crown twirling really bugs me...particularly since you are the 2nd person to say LSH's crown is the same crown Jamie happens upon.  I'm not going to bash anyone who sees the good mothering in Catelyn Tully Stark.  Every time I see a well presented argument such as yours I have to vow to reread her with an open heart. It always starts out well.   She just continues to leave Bran every time I read her.  If she would just stay home and take care of the kids she actually could care for I might feel differently.   Reread starts in a day.   Maybe she will stay home this time.   

I see we are on the same page with the Arya fantasy.   I think that's the only way I will ever understand LSH.   I guess if she gave her after life for Jon and gave him the crown or whatever that would be nice, but I would forever be wondering what the real motive is.   Her incarnation is a freaking scary thing.   Arya needs to find her humanity even if her mother is beyond that.   Like you so eloquently illustrated, a well placed gift of Mercy is a lovely way to close many stories.   We've got the plots and characters and subplots and minor characters, but we've got the little things like Arya holding her secrets hard in her heart.   I would like to see that come to a reasonable closure so that I can hope for Arya again.  

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Now is that crown Robb's or Jeyne's?  I thought it was Jeyne's crown at Riverrun and Robb's crown is the 1 LSH plays with. 

I was 100% sure until you asked me, and now I am like  99.9% sure that it is the same crown that LSH later has. I will double check when I get home because the silly kindle version on my phone kinda sucks for searching. 

ADding: It should be because the Frey who had it, the one with the “camp follower”, he got it from the Red Wedding, which is one reason why Jaime took it away from him. How it got to LSH I don’t remember for sure, but it is part of the BWB network. 

Quote

Love her, hate her--she's a character we all need to be able to discuss like people who are old enough to read the material.

Amen to this on so many levels and topics 

 

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, divica said:

So how many members do you think that the BwB has? And if you think the have such a network that they are spreading false rumours about themselves?

At this point I would guess hundreds of affiliates if not members.  Outright members lead a hard life always looking over their shoulders.   Thoros tells Arya this when they initally meet in the Riverlands...

"That turned the whole world on its head. We'd been sent out by the King's Hand to deal with outlaws, you see, but now we were the outlaws, and Lord Tywin was the Hand of the King. There was some wanted to yield then, but Lord Beric wouldn't hear of it. We were still king's men, he said, and these were the king's people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for Robert, we would fight for them, until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we fought something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men—fieldhands and fiddlers and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons. Men of all sorts, and women too, children, dogs . . ."

"Dogs?" said Arya.     ASOS Arya III

Lord Dondarrion started out with 120 men I believe.  The conversation between Arya and Thoros was easily over a year back, so I am sure the BWB ranks have swollen even more. They are absolutely spreading false propaganda about themselves.  Jamie still hears tales about the Lightning Lord (Beric Dondarrion) terrorizing the Riverlands and we know he's been dead for a few months if not longer now.

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I was 100% sure until you asked me, and now I am like  99.9% sure that it is the same crown that LSH later has. I will double check when I get home because the silly kindle version on my phone kinda sucks for searching. 

ADding: It should be because the Frey who had it, the one with the “camp follower”, he got it from the Red Wedding, which is one reason why Jaime took it away from him. How it got to LSH I don’t remember for sure, but it is part of the BWB network. 

Amen to this on so many levels and topics 

 

You know this crown thing will bug me until someone starts a topic about it.   I'm stuck with phone books too right now.   Jamie learns that Sybell Westerling forcibly pulls the crown from Jeyne's head at some point.   (I think...)  When Jamie happens upon our QOWs I assumed he took it with him.   I further assumed Robb's crown rolled off and Cat took it in her death grip at the Red Wedding.   Of course, I also thought she wanted Jeyne's crown from Jamie the 1st time I read it, too.  Hrm...

If you do find any support for any crown please let me know.   

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lord Dondarrion started out with 120 men I believe.  The conversation between Arya and Thoros was easily over a year back, so I am sure the BWB ranks have swollen even more. They are absolutely spreading false propaganda about themselves.  Jamie still hears tales about the Lightning Lord (Beric Dondarrion) terrorizing the Riverlands and we know he's been dead for a few months if not longer now.

Yeah... doesn't Jaime at one point talks about finding the BwB and "this Stoneheart woman" or something to that effect? I think it's when he's treating w/ Tytos Blackwood. Maybe?

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know this crown thing will bug me until someone starts a topic about it.   I'm stuck with phone books too right now.   Jamie learns that Sybell Westerling forcibly pulls the crown from Jeyne's head at some point.   (I think...)  When Jamie happens upon our QOWs I assumed he took it with him.   I further assumed Robb's crown rolled off and Cat took it in her death grip at the Red Wedding.   Of course, I also thought she wanted Jeyne's crown from Jamie the 1st time I read it, too.  Hrm...

If you do find any support for any crown please let me know.   

Will do because I won’t be able to sleep tonight until I figure it out. 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

At this point I would guess hundreds of affiliates if not members.  Outright members lead a hard life always looking over their shoulders.   Thoros tells Arya this when they initally meet in the Riverlands...

"That turned the whole world on its head. We'd been sent out by the King's Hand to deal with outlaws, you see, but now we were the outlaws, and Lord Tywin was the Hand of the King. There was some wanted to yield then, but Lord Beric wouldn't hear of it. We were still king's men, he said, and these were the king's people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for Robert, we would fight for them, until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we fought something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men—fieldhands and fiddlers and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons. Men of all sorts, and women too, children, dogs . . ."

"Dogs?" said Arya.     ASOS Arya III

Lord Dondarrion started out with 120 men I believe.  The conversation between Arya and Thoros was easily over a year back, so I am sure the BWB ranks have swollen even more. They are absolutely spreading false propaganda about themselves.  Jamie still hears tales about the Lightning Lord (Beric Dondarrion) terrorizing the Riverlands and we know he's been dead for a few months if not longer now.

I was mostly interested in how many they were because 10 people can escort Jamie to the Wall at any given time. However after the desertions and their losses do you really think they still have so many men? 

Besides, with the confusion in KL, the iron born atacking and Aegon do you think there is some plan for the BwB to take part of the riverlands and declare for Aegon? It is probably a ripe time for them to conquer anything... The tyrell army is tied up and if Aegon wins his battle with mace the lannister army will focus on Aegon and the stormlands instead of the riverlands. With the right timing their only enemies will be the freys...

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah... doesn't Jaime at one point talks about finding the BwB and "this Stoneheart woman" or something to that effect? I think it's when he's treating w/ Tytos Blackwood. Maybe?

The person Jaime's talking to is called "the hooded woman".  This is Gads, the same page my opening quote was on I think.  The person Jamie is talking to tells him that the hooded woman and the BWB or her group were last seen disappearing into the Neck.   Dang it, i knew I should have left the entire thing in.  But I do remember he was at a Lord's home early on in the Riverlands when he says "this Stoneheart woman".  Darry maybe? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@Curled Finger I would just like to say what a great thread! I've been lurking, reading every word. I just don't have alot to add.

There are a few things I'm certain of: Whether Brienne told the truth, a half lie, or a full lie she will not trick Jaime into his death. She just would not do that. 

Jaime will not stand by idly if LSH &/or the BwB try to harm Brienne. 

I'm fairly certain LSH would not have a trial for Jaime & would not trust him to send him on some mission UNLESS she held Brienne hostage. 

The rest is all mush in my head but there have been so many interesting ideas thrown out there! 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, divica said:

I was mostly interested in how many they were because 10 people can escort Jamie to the Wall at any given time. However after the desertions and their losses do you really think they still have so many men? 

Besides, with the confusion in KL, the iron born atacking and Aegon do you think there is some plan for the BwB to take part of the riverlands and declare for Aegon? It is probably a ripe time for them to conquer anything... The tyrell army is tied up and if Aegon wins his battle with mace the lannister army will focus on Aegon and the stormlands instead of the riverlands. With the right timing their only enemies will be the freys...

Wow you can really think ahead.   I've always thought the Riverlands were going to implode and the BWB would install their own people at Riverrun.  I don't know what they know, but they will have to get behind someone real quick...they don't have any food and divica, winter is coming. 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Curled Finger I would just like to say what a great thread! I've been lurking, reading every word. I just don't have alot to add.

There are a few things I'm certain of: Whether Brienne told the truth, a half lie, or a full lie she will not trick Jaime into his death. She just would not do that. 

Jaime will not stand by idly if LSH &/or the BwB try to harm Brienne. 

I'm fairly certain LSH would not have a trial for Jaime & would not trust him to send him on some mission UNLESS she held Brienne hostage. 

The rest is all mush in my head but there have been so many interesting ideas thrown out there! 

Yah you were off to such a strong start.  We've been wondering what you could possibly do that is more fun than talking with us.   Ah c'mon, we know lurking is fun.   I can't even keep up with all the great comments and I'm supposed to be hosting this!  We are happy to have what you have to offer.  

Ahha!  The hold Brienne hostage card!  Didn't see that coming at all, but I couldn't agree more with all the rest of your update.   That's good...really good--hrm, now I have to figure out what mission.   Poor Brienne.  

What say ye about the crowns?  

[divica]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Curled Finger I would just like to say what a great thread! I've been lurking, reading every word. I just don't have alot to add.

There are a few things I'm certain of: Whether Brienne told the truth, a half lie, or a full lie she will not trick Jaime into his death. She just would not do that. 

Jaime will not stand by idly if LSH &/or the BwB try to harm Brienne. 

I'm fairly certain LSH would not have a trial for Jaime & would not trust him to send him on some mission UNLESS she held Brienne hostage. 

The rest is all mush in my head but there have been so many interesting ideas thrown out there! 

While we know jamie cares for brienne why would LSH believe in it?

In adition she has to believe Jamie is connected to the red weding. Besides roose saying "Jaime sends his regards" she has to know that jamie was brought to roose. It would make perfect sense that it was Jamie that turned roose against robb with some promises.

With the exception of giving a VS (which is an insult to house stark) to brienne and sending her to look for sansa/arya (which LSH can know if it was with good intentios or to capture them) what has Jamie done that might make LSH he is a different man?

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Will do because I won’t be able to sleep tonight until I figure it out. 

Excellent.   Now at least I will be able to sleep!   You're the best, Leech!

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know this crown thing will bug me until someone starts a topic about it.   I'm stuck with phone books too right now.   Jamie learns that Sybell Westerling forcibly pulls the crown from Jeyne's head at some point.   (I think...)  When Jamie happens upon our QOWs I assumed he took it with him.   I further assumed Robb's crown rolled off and Cat took it in her death grip at the Red Wedding.   Of course, I also thought she wanted Jeyne's crown from Jamie the 1st time I read it, too.  Hrm...

If you do find any support for any crown please let me know.   

The crown w/ Jeyne that her adorable mother tries to take from her is Jeyne's own crown. She says Robb gave it to her. And when Jaime treats w/ the Freys (because of what they're doing to Edmure), he sees that the queen of whores w/ Ryman Frey has a copper and iron crown, and he takes it right before he tells Ryman to bugger off and tells his son Edwyn to take charge of the camp and "try not to be as stupid as your father" (paraphrasing). 

I think the BwB fell upon Ryman and his party while they were on their way back to the Twins, and that's how LSH comes upon Robb's crown. 

(sorry my italics have been abducted by aliens)

Robb's:

“Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was. Her gown laced up the front, but someone had undone the laces to the navel, so her breasts were spilling out. They were large and heavy, with big brown nipples. On her head a circlet of hammered bronze sat askew, graven with runes and ringed with small black swords. When she saw Jaime, she laughed. “Who in seven hells is this one?”
“The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard,” Jaime returned with cold courtesy. “I might ask the same of you, my lady.”
“Lady? I’m no lady. I’m the queen.”
“My sister will be surprised to hear that.”
“Lord Ryman crowned me his very self.” She gave a shake of her ample hips. “I’m the queen o’ whores.”
No, Jaime thought, my sweet sister holds that title too.”

<snip>

“I warned you about talking.” Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done. “You are dismissed, ser.”
“Dismissed?”
“You heard me. Go away.”
“But . . . where should I go?”
“To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers.” Jaime turned from Ser Ryman to his son. “Edwyn, I am giving you your father’s command. Try not to be so stupid as your sire.”

Jeyne's:

“The girl turned her head away. “It is nothing,” insisted her mother, a stern-faced woman in a gown of green velvet. A necklace of golden seashells looped about her long, thin neck. “She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”
“It was mine.” Jeyne sobbed. “You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him.”