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manchester_babe

Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, we don't know the color of the rose except that it was dead and black and she was clutching it hard enough to cause the petals to come off when she let go. 

Ever touched a rose past its prime? The petals go quite easily. And since it is not stated in what manner she was holding it/them, there is no telling if it was one rose or more. But if you want to argue the size of the rose and Lyanna's palm, be my guest.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The notion that Lyanna carted around the laurel of roses and was clinging to them as she died is stretching it.  

Exactly. People usually don't carry dried laurels around but they do tend to take with them things of emotional value if they intend to leave home. Which is why I said that IF it was her HH crown, it must have been a pre-planned elopement.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's what I call nonsense.

If GRRM happens to confirm that it was indeed the crown, I'll remember this. I hope you will, too.

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22 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Haven't seen many of those, but I don't have any proof that they don't exist.

Well, you can find a variation on page one of this very thread, where someone says it's a settled question.   It's definitely not a settled question.  :D

22 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

So, you're presenting an argument based on semantics.

Semantics is all about meaning.  The meaning of your statement 

Quote

GRRM stated that he gave D&D the go ahead after they guessed correctly the parentage of Jon Snow

...is not the same as the meaning of GRRM's actual statement.  I'm really not trying to be obtuse, here, I'm just trying to be precise. 

22 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

it is also true- by your own admission- that Lyanna is Jon's mother, meaning Ned- who was leagues away for nearly a year, and was her brother who was disgusted by Cersei/Jaime- cannot be the father.

This leads us back to R (with Rhaegar being the only person- who had not sworn an oath of celibacy to be near Lyanna)+L=J.

Well, let's unpack this into smaller ideas.

1. I do personally think Lyanna is the most likely mother, yes.   But I could be wrong.  I'm just one guy.

2. I don't know what D&D told GRRM, that was the correct answer for the books; I only know what turned out to be the answer on their show.

3. As GRRM has repeatedly predicted would happen since the show began, the show and books are now hugely different!  And as he also predicted, they've gotten more different the longer the show has aired.

Suppose GRRM asked D&D "Whom did Ramsay marry in book five?" and now suppose they gave the correct answer: Jeyne Poole.  OK.  But that doesn't mean Ramsay would marry that same person on their show...

4. We can't, using the canon, demonstrate where Lyanna was for a single day during the Rebellion.  We also can't show she was anywhere near Rhaegar at any time during the Rebellion.  Not within ten miles, or fifty, or a thousand.   

So the idea that only Rhaegar was near her, and only he had not sworn an oath of celibacy, is just not something we can possibly know yet.   It might be true, or it might not be true.

However, even if our options could be shown as limited to Rhaegar, Whent, and Dayne, there's a very long, well-established history of Kingsguard who repeatedly break the oath of celibacy, such as their brother Prince Lewyn of Dorne, or more recently, Arys Oakheart.

This is the core problem with any theory in which Lyanna is the mother: We simply do not know where she was... what she was doing... or with whom she was doing it... anywhere near the time we think Jon was conceived (and we can't even really be sure about that).

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Semantics is all about meaning.  The meaning of your statement

It's odd because you pointed out that particular statement, yet failed to point out another statement in which I said their discussion was about his mother. Odd.

3 hours ago, JNR said:

...is not the same as the meaning of GRRM's actual statement.  I'm really not trying to be obtuse, here, I'm just trying to be precise.

Also, it is about semantics.

When I star that they guessed his parentage correctly, it is with regards to Lyanna. That's obvious, but you're simply taking it out of context, for some strange reason.

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, let's unpack this into smaller ideas.

1. I do personally think Lyanna is the most likely mother, yes.   But I could be wrong.  I'm just one guy.

2. I don't know what D&D told GRRM, that was the correct answer for the books; I only know what turned out to be the answer on their show.

3. As GRRM has repeatedly predicted would happen since the show began, the show and books are now hugely different!  And as he also predicted, they've gotten more different the longer the show has aired.

Suppose GRRM asked D&D "Whom did Ramsay marry in book five?" and now suppose they gave the correct answer: Jeyne Poole.  OK.  But that doesn't mean Ramsay would marry that same person on their show...

4. We can't, using the canon, demonstrate where Lyanna was for a single day during the Rebellion.  We also can't show she was anywhere near Rhaegar at any time during the Rebellion.  Not within ten miles, or fifty, or a thousand.   

So the idea that only Rhaegar was near her, and only he had not sworn an oath of celibacy, is just not something we can possibly know yet.   It might be true, or it might not be true.

However, even if our options could be shown as limited to Rhaegar, Whent, and Dayne, there's a very long, well-established history of Kingsguard who repeatedly break the oath of celibacy, such as their brother Prince Lewyn of Dorne, or more recently, Arys Oakheart.

This is the core problem with any theory in which Lyanna is the mother: We simply do not know where she was... what she was doing... or with whom she was doing it... anywhere near the time we think Jon was conceived (and we can't even really be sure about that).

1. And you have the right to be right or wrong. I don't care.

2. Neither do I, but I know that based on their answer he trusted them to adapt his book series.

3. The things you're mentioning are due to budgeting an time constraints. Changing Jon's parentage serves neither. Neglecting the Vale means that they don't have to recast Jayne Poole or add a Myranda Royce. These are logistical changes. How would changing WHO Jon's parents are change the budget. If anything, making him the son of a white would be more cost effective.

4. But we can. We can demonstrate that she was in the Tower of Joy, due to her presence there when Ned arrived. We can't demonstrate that she was with Rhaegar, due to Ned never thinking of that, but we know she was with Gerold Hightower, because he died outside of her tower.

Gerold was in King's Landing when Rickard and Brandon died, which we know from Jaime. He was also sent to find Rhaegar. Now, we can't say for certain that he found him, but seeing as he was later killed along with the two Kingsguard that had been traveling with Rhaegar, and Rhaegar returned without him (he went to King's Landing before the Trident) we can safely say that Gerold met up with Rhaegar.

Perhaps they found her after Rhaegar left them and decided to keep her, but then they refused to give her back to Ned. And their speech before their fight mentions how the Kingsguard serves for life. What does holding Lyanna have to do with being Kingsguard?

And you say this history is well established, but of the two you mentioned, one is mentioned of having a paramour, though it's never stated that this was concrete. And Aerys is part of the Kingsguard who (count them out): has sex with the queen (Jaime, Kettleblack), quits during battle/wasn't a knight (Hound), murders the Hand (Mandon Moore), surrenders the King (Boris Blount) and half of which beat a girl (all documented in the books from several perspectives). Not really setting a high standard, huh.

What I'm saying is, using Robert's Kingsguard to justify the possible actions of an earlier Kingsguard is daily weak. There's also no textual evidence to support it (The Dayne and Whent portion/while not very reliable, the Lewyn portion is there).

Also, we can be fairly confident with the accuracy of Jon's birth, given Catelyn's thoughts on the matter. Since she bout Ned's story, it can't be that far from the truth.

Also, as an aside, I'm making an argument that Rhaegar is the best choice. I never said only. I've said more sensible, but not the only.

Most others that people mention make no sense.

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22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Is this really an inversion? I'm thinking more in terms of a parallel.

A parallel would be a repetition of events. An inversion would maintain some of those events, but shuffle characters, motivations, and outcomes. I'm not a fan of inversion theories, but if there's suitable place in the story for one it's the two abductions at the Inn at the Crossroads.

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

...Lyanna's association with blue roses, and the only person she ever got them from was Rhaegar.

Lyanna only receiving blue roses from Rhaegar is about as plausible as Ashara Dayne being nailed to the floor of Starfall.

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Where is it referred that Brandon't ghost somehow taints Cat and Ned's marriage?

AGoT Cat II

Quote

Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

Interestingly, the chapter also contains a whole discussion about Jon, with probably as much or more lines devoted to it as the rest of the Stark children combined. And it's home to Ned's mid-life "it was all meant for Brandon" crisis, with it's unspoken undertones suggesting Jon was Brandon's as well.

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry, this doesn't work. Lyanna was fearful when pleading Ned, practically as if clinging to her life until the promise was made. How does having a statue built become such a concern for a dying mother?

I'm not entirely sure, but Ned explicitly attributes her fear to her burial.

AGOT Ned I

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.

I don't see Ned Stark as the kind of guy who is likely to bend tradition, let alone break it, and certainly not at all for his own emotional satisfaction. I can only see Brandon and Lyanna's statues as an element of Ned's promise to Lyanna. Why she was so fixated on it, I can't say. but it's right there in the cannon, and with presumably greater accuracy than the elements seen in Ned's fever dream.

Interestingly, the chapter order goes Ned I, with Ned connecting Lyanna to Brandon, Jon I with the feast at Winterfell and Tryion's observation that Jon has a double dose of the north in him, and then Cat II, with the shadows of Brandon and Jon Snow's mother lying between Ned and Cat. After that comes Arya I, with our first scene between Jon and Arya (see the '93 letter), followed up by Bran II, with actual incest, then Tyrion I where we see the full Lannister family in Incest On Parade, and Jon II, with Jon and Arya saying goodbye. And before Ned I we get Danaerys I, which introduces us to the idea of incest and incestual lineages in a more acceptable context. To be honest, George is laying it on thick.

The statues allow George to continue trotting out the relationship repeatedly and without the crutch of a vision or the Weirnet. The only people likely to "see" Rhaegar at this point are Danaerys in a vision, or Bran through the Weirnet. Maybe Mel, but we can take odds on how likely she is to misidentify what she's seeing in the flames. These POVs are all limited in their scope, whereas B+L shows up every single time a POV enters the Winterfell crypts, and any POV can enlighten us, whether it's cripple boy Bran or Lustin' Dustin.

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1 hour ago, Millimidget said:

A parallel would be a repetition of events. An inversion would maintain some of those events, but shuffle characters, motivations, and outcomes. I'm not a fan of inversion theories, but if there's suitable place in the story for one it's the two abductions at the Inn at the Crossroads.

Not a fan of them, either, and it seems to me that the term "inversion" is used here very loosely as a sort of cool-sounding label. Parallel can be used to mean similar, which already covers the differences, whereas inversion should be a switch , e.g. in one case a boy abducts a girl, in the other, the other way round. But the terminology doesn't really matter.

1 hour ago, Millimidget said:

Lyanna only receiving blue roses from Rhaegar is about as plausible as Ashara Dayne being nailed to the floor of Starfall.

Sure, there may have been lots of other people who gave her blue roses, but the point is that Rhaegar is the only one that GRRM chose to tell us about, and that the blue roses in connection with Lyanna keep recurring in Ned's PoVs, i.e. they are somehow important. And when we learn in Ned's final PoV who Lyanna received those roses from, it's staged like a reveal throughout the book - first it's only roses (the room that smelled of blood and roses in Ned's first PoV), then it's blue winter roses (Lyanna loved their smell, and a ton of other references), then it's a garland of blue roses (Lyanna's statue weeping blood in Ned's dream), and finally, in the last PoV we get, we learn what that garland was and where it came from.

1 hour ago, Millimidget said:

AGoT Cat II

/facepalm/ Sheesh, totally forgot they were the part of the same scene.

1 hour ago, Millimidget said:

Interestingly, the chapter also contains a whole discussion about Jon, with probably as much or more lines devoted to it as the rest of the Stark children combined. And it's home to Ned's mid-life "it was all meant for Brandon" crisis, with it's unspoken undertones suggesting Jon was Brandon's as well.

I think the time and space devoted to Jon here is not really surprising, given that he's the only stain in the bliss of Cat's marriage and the only mystery. 

As for the "all for Brandon" part, undertones are definitely there but I don't think we can attribute them to anything with certainty. For example, if Ned indeed had a crush on Ashara but it was Brandon who dishonored her, well... - That said, I'm not sure I get how Jon would come into this - would it mean that Ned wanted Jon to be his son and was bitter that he wasn't?

1 hour ago, Millimidget said:

I'm not entirely sure, but Ned explicitly attributes her fear to her burial.

I think the connection between the burial and her final moments is through the promise - she certainly wanted that, but would she really have to plead with Ned for it? Plus, we learn later that Ned promised more than one thing, but he never shares those other promises with Robert, so I believe it is logical to assume that the promise that she was so anxious about concerned something else, and that the parallel with Sansa in Ned's mind shows us what it was (Sansa pleads "stops them, don't let them do it, she's innocent" - given the fate of little Rhaenys and Aegon, that would be indeed something to fear for a mother of another child of Rhaegar's)

 

Gotta go to work, so the rest later.

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Exactly. People usually don't carry dried laurels around but they do tend to take with them things of emotional value if they intend to leave home. Which is why I said that IF it was her HH crown, it must have been a pre-planned elopement.

Still a "maybe" I think.

She could had kept the crown as a sweet memento of a "hawt!boi thought I was purdy!" moment. Something like "the lucky knickers I pulled a hot guy with".

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3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Still a "maybe" I think.

She could had kept the crown as a sweet memento of a "hawt!boi thought I was purdy!" moment. Something like "the lucky knickers I pulled a hot guy with".

The point is not keeping the crown but having it along when Rhaegar "fell upon her", so unless she was moving all of her personal items in preparation for her upcoming wedding and Rhaegar took her along with a whole carriage, she wouldn't have had the crown on her. Whereas, if the two agreed to elope because wuw, it would probably the first thing a love-struck teen would want to take with her.

Of course, it may have been different roses, like, the last one(s) that Rhaegar gave her before he left, or roses meant as a remembrance of the crown because she hadn't taken it along, but given that the roses are not fresh and are important, I think the scene is tied to the crowning and the QoLaB crown is, at least, not implausible.

 

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6 hours ago, Millimidget said:

I don't see Ned Stark as the kind of guy who is likely to bend tradition, let alone break it, and certainly not at all for his own emotional satisfaction.

Here it's a matter of interpretation of Ned's character, I guess, because I can totally see him express his love for his siblings in an unusual way (besides, while it was not customary to build statues for non-Lords, it was not tabooed, either).

6 hours ago, Millimidget said:

I can only see Brandon and Lyanna's statues as an element of Ned's promise to Lyanna. Why she was so fixated on it, I can't say. but it's right there in the cannon, and with presumably greater accuracy than the elements seen in Ned's fever dream.

But Ned never mentions Lyanna wanting a statue, he only says she cared about the location of her grave. There seems to be no connection between the promise to bury her at Winterfell and Ned's decision tui build a statue for her and Brandon.

6 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Interestingly, the chapter order goes Ned I, with Ned connecting Lyanna to Brandon, Jon I with the feast at Winterfell and Tryion's observation that Jon has a double dose of the north in him

IIRC, it's not a "double dose" but "more of the North", along with an assessment that whoever Jon's mother was, she didn't leave any trace in him, which would be very ironic if it was exactly the other way round.

6 hours ago, Millimidget said:

and then Cat II, with the shadows of Brandon and Jon Snow's mother lying between Ned and Cat. After that comes Arya I, with our first scene between Jon and Arya (see the '93 letter), followed up by Bran II, with actual incest, then Tyrion I where we see the full Lannister family in Incest On Parade, and Jon II, with Jon and Arya saying goodbye. And before Ned I we get Danaerys I, which introduces us to the idea of incest and incestual lineages in a more acceptable context. To be honest, George is laying it on thick.

Sorry, cannot agree here that an exposition of characters lies any groundwork for some incest reveal in the Stark family, especially when there are no hints towards such a thing in Ned' PoV.

6 hours ago, Millimidget said:

The statues allow George to continue trotting out the relationship repeatedly and without the crutch of a vision or the Weirnet. The only people likely to "see" Rhaegar at this point are Danaerys in a vision, or Bran through the Weirnet. Maybe Mel, but we can take odds on how likely she is to misidentify what she's seeing in the flames. These POVs are all limited in their scope, whereas B+L shows up every single time a POV enters the Winterfell crypts, and any POV can enlighten us, whether it's cripple boy Bran or Lustin' Dustin.

And what does the PoV's scope of vision have to do with a theory being true or not? How is the reveal dependent on visuals?

Not to mention that we already have Theon, who sees Lyanna wearing her crown of blue roses in his dream, and potential reveals through Arianne's PoV if she gets to meet some Daynes, or even Wylla herself - and Mr Elusive himself, Howland Reed in person, who sits right on the path which Ned's bones, Robb's will and BwB are headed.

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I agree w/ @Ygrain. I'd also like to bring up that pesky timeline issue regarding B+L... the small detail that being dead at the time of Jon's conception would prevent Brandon from being the father. 

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He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

AGoT Eddard IX.

Surely, Ned doesn't mean the price of Lyanna's tomb in Winterfell or the costs of her statue?

If Lyanna is not Jon's mother, then we have two separate mysteries in Ned's life: One is who Jon's mother is and why Ned can't reveal / doesn't want to reveal her identity to Cat or Jon. The other is what promises (in the plural) Ned made to Lyanna and what price he paid to keep them. 

Regarding one of these secrets, we know Ned tells Robert that Lyanna wanted to be buried in Winterfell. We can infer, however, that this was not what Lyanna so desperately pleaded for and what Ned had to pay a high price for.

Regarding the other secret, Ned tells Robert Jon's mother was a wench called Wylla, but we can infer it isn't such a simple story as he is rather protective of this secret at other times.

Various people in world ask questions, think about or talk about the first secret - who Jon's mother may have been. Ned, however, apparently never thinks of this mystery in his POV, on page. We only have external viewpoints on this mystery.

No one wonders on page what promises Ned made to Lyanna, yet, Ned thinks of those promises several times in his POV.  We have his internal viewpoint, and nothing else. 

R+L=J solves both mysteries with a single solution, showing that they are the two sides of the same mystery, which I think is neat.  

I can't recall seeing an alternative theory (or twin theories) providing for both mysteries in Ned's life, where both parts of the theory were supported by textual clues.  

 

 

 

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Well, I don't dislike R+L=J, but I won't be surprised if GRRM goes with a different theory. It would be funny for me. I guess no one's ever asked Wylla, who of the most speculated people (Ashara, Wylla, or Lyanna) who bore Jon, is confirmed to have existed after 283 AC. 

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On 06/04/2018 at 4:16 PM, JNR said:

If only there were some objective way to assess the concept of best.  

People say this sort of thing all the time too... but we're not talking about ten theories running a hundred meters and the best is whichever crosses the finish line first.   R+L=J is really only the theory that best pleases the userbase of this fan site and other, similar fan sites.

As to the bolded: why do you think this might be?  The books have been out for 10-20 years and almost all of the info used to argue R+L=J has been in print for 20 years.  This seems the obvious reason why people refer to it as the "best": it has been discussed, dissected and challenged for 20+ years and, it stands up to all of that for a majority of poeple.  As you say, it "best pleases the userbase of this and other similar fan sites".  Now maybe there is a veiled dig there as is often the case about the "susceptibility" of people to believe in the "Disney" fairy tale of R+L=J but I'll take it you simply mean that the majority can be wrong.  Of course they can and until the story is told this is simply a theory, however well it fits together. But to repeat myself, I have never seen a theory which more convincingly pieces things together and offers a satisfactory explanation for Ned's behaviour and memories and Rhaegar, Lyanna or the 3 KG's actions (I mean are we really and seriously being asked to consider an incestuous union between Brandon and Lyanna?).

Also, I understand that the Books and Show diverge but there is an inconvenient fact there that some people are trying hard to block out.  It really does look like denial to me.  Sometimes you just have to let it go.

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On 4/9/2018 at 5:10 PM, Julia H. said:

Surely, Ned doesn't mean the price of Lyanna's tomb in Winterfell or the costs of her statue?

Certainly that is only a part of the promise. Perhaps the price was higher for the lesser known parts of it.

Quote

“The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.”

Could Lyanna have also requested the same of Ned, possibly verbatim or close to it? It's supportive of a different kind of RLJ; Robert + Lyanna = Jon. Perhaps part of the promise to Lyanna was to raise her son to be better than his father, Robert. If Robert is the father, his words would have an especially significant meaning for Ned, one which only he would be aware of. And there is other evidence to suggest Robert is the father. As much or more than there is for Rhaegar being the father.

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I find it interesting that Brandon comes up so often, thanks to the statues in the crypts. Specifically, Father and Brandon, or Brandon and Father. It's so easy for George to present us these two together, along with Lyanna, and in a POV any character can witness, unlike RLJ, which can only be seen in a vision. Indeed, the very first instance of "Promise me, Ned," comes right after Brandon and Father.

Jon Snow's secret seems to be intimately tied to the Winterfell crypts. None of his contemporary story leads south. Everything points North. I just can't see his "secret" in the crypts being Rhaegar's lost harp. And I don't think all the king imagery surrounding him points to the Targaryens either. "King. Corn King." does not seem related to any dragon.

Then there are the shadows of Brandon and Jon Snow's mother between Cat and Ned. In the same book, we see shadow figures in Bran's coma dream, and in Dany's vision inside the ritual tent.

Or the repeated allusions to incest, subtle or direct, for eight consecutive chapters from the first ten chapters of the series, alongside our introduction to the mystery of Jon Snow's lineage. Danaerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Arya I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II.

Or the massive twist of Jon Snow, lifelong bastard, actually being an incest baby and the true heir of Winterfell , whereas Daenerys Targaryen, lifelong incest baby and true heir of Westeros, is actually the bastard born child with a lesser claim than her half-brother (rAegon) to the throne.

Or how this would end up the story of A Song of Ice&Fire and Fire if Jon Snow is Stark/Targaryen.

Copied from a post I made on Reddit.

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42 minutes ago, Millimidget said:

And there is other evidence to suggest Robert is the father. As much or more than there is for Rhaegar being the father

Care to elaborate? 

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1 hour ago, Millimidget said:

Copied from a post I made on Reddit.

B+L=J would be hilarious!

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5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Could Lyanna have also requested the same of Ned, possibly verbatim or close to it? It's supportive of a different kind of RLJ; Robert + Lyanna = Jon.

How is your quote supportive of anything? The reference to Lyanna comes before it, as a reaction to Robert asking him for a promise (and the promise concerns serving the boar at the funeral feast, so hardly anything to do with Jon's parentage). You have it backwards: IF Jon is Robert's, THEN the passage might mirror a promise to Lyanna, but it doesn't work the other way round because Ned, the one who gave the promise, doesn't draw any connection. Where he does draw one, it is with Sansa pleading with him to save Lady.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

And there is other evidence to suggest Robert is the father. As much or more than there is for Rhaegar being the father.

I'd like to see the evidence. So far, an avid supporter of the theory failed miserably. I would very much like to see something that trumps Lyanna's iconic blue roses which she received from Rhaegar, meaning that every single mention of the item ties not only to Lyanna but to the person who gifted them, as well.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

I find it interesting that Brandon comes up so often, thanks to the statues in the crypts. Specifically, Father and Brandon, or Brandon and Father. It's so easy for George to present us these two together, along with Lyanna, and in a POV any character can witness, unlike RLJ, which can only be seen in a vision. Indeed, the very first instance of "Promise me, Ned," comes right after Brandon and Father.

A strawman. Being able to show the parentage one way or the other has zero bearings on who the parents really were.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Jon Snow's secret seems to be intimately tied to the Winterfell crypts. None of his contemporary story leads south. Everything points North.

Another strawman. Trying to second-guess the author is not a proof for or against anything.

Plus, you forget about Robb's will - naming Jon his heir makes him also heir of Winterfell. The current situation in the NW offers at least two scenarios for him to be released of his vows, either by his death, or by NW being eliminated in an ensuing fight. A third scenario would be Jon breaking the vow not to take any crown for the sake of the greater good, because as KitN, he would be able to organize a more effective defence of the realms of men. 

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

I just can't see his "secret" in the crypts being Rhaegar's lost harp.

The list of hypothetical objects in the crypt is much longer, but all of them have one thing in common: their presence there depends on Lyanna being his mother. Last time I checked, her tomb was still there, so again, a nice strawman there.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

And I don't think all the king imagery surrounding him points to the Targaryens either. "King. Corn King." does not seem related to any dragon.

Please. How does king imagery rule out Targaryen, as in, royal, heritage? If anything it would tie to both because as Rhaegar's only surviving heir, he would have a claim to the IT. Plus, you might start wondering about Jon's dream, where he see himself in an armor of black ice. There is just one person in the series famous for a black armour, and it's neither Brandon nor Robert.

BTW, the Corn king theory was rejected by GRRM, so it doesn't matter what it relates to or not.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Then there are the shadows of Brandon and Jon Snow's mother between Cat and Ned. In the same book, we see shadow figures in Bran's coma dream, and in Dany's vision inside the ritual tent.

And how does this point to anything about Jon's parentage? The shadows between Cat and Ned are a figure of speech. Bran's coma is filled with prophetic visions and the shadows in Mirri's tent are magic-induced. None have anything to do with the others.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Or the repeated allusions to incest, subtle or direct, for eight consecutive chapters from the first ten chapters of the series, alongside our introduction to the mystery of Jon Snow's lineage. Danaerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Arya I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II.

Allusions to incest, in the book where incest plays a major role in the plot, can hardly be considered a hint towards anything. Sorry.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Or the massive twist of Jon Snow, lifelong bastard, actually being an incest baby and the true heir of Winterfell ,

B+L doesn't make Jon a true heir of anything, because he would still be a bastard.

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

whereas Daenerys Targaryen, lifelong incest baby and true heir of Westeros, is actually the bastard born child with a lesser claim than her half-brother (rAegon) to the throne.

So now we're into "Dany is not Dany"? How does this affect Jon's parentage? You're again putting the cart before the horses.

 

5 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Or how this would end up the story of A Song of Ice&Fire and Fire if Jon Snow is Stark/Targaryen.

Well, let me think... how might a guy born of the union of Ice and Fire fit in the story called A Song of Ice and Fire ?

Long story short: all you're doing is arguing your own assumptions. You don't have any text to support what you say, not do you counter the actual arguments in support of RLJ. You don't like RLJ, fine, but your argumentation doesn't really bring in any food for thought.

 

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Even if we pretend that the timeline does fit (it doesn't, at all) why would Ned keep Robert's child with Lyanna hidden from Robert?

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10 hours ago, Millimidget said:

Certainly that is only a part of the promise. Perhaps the price was higher for the lesser known parts of it.

Could Lyanna have also requested the same of Ned, possibly verbatim or close to it? It's supportive of a different kind of RLJ; Robert + Lyanna = Jon. Perhaps part of the promise to Lyanna was to raise her son to be better than his father, Robert. If Robert is the father, his words would have an especially significant meaning for Ned, one which only he would be aware of. And there is other evidence to suggest Robert is the father. As much or more than there is for Rhaegar being the father.

No, there is none. There is conclusive evidence against it (the fact that for Robert, Lyanna's "the one that got away" - he never got her; the timeline; the fact that every single known of Robert's bastards has his trademarked black hair).

Go with Robert + Brandon, or Cersei + Illyrio, the evidence is just as good as for Robert + Lyanna, but at least you'll be creative.

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