Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I was not implying that new blocks are appearing out of thin air, and revisiting my post, I suppose that when I added the later part - "the Watch changes its purpose, and the Wall grows to its present height" - that I was not speaking clearly enough.

Again, two things can be true here, which is that new blocks are added through physical labor to create abrupt changes in height, but the Wall also slowly incorporates and expands on what men have added, in a process that the Watch assumes is natural glaciation, but is instead tied to the magic of the Wall.

The underlying premise is how this relates to the early Wall in particular--eventually, the Wall became a project with many castles, thousands (one would assume) of members in the order of builders, and was focused primarily on keeping the Free Folk out, but was it ever thus?

We have this description of blocks:

But this is a description of the heights, and as BC notes, perhaps this is how those features are being logically contextualized (eg, a block imperfectly positioned atop another), but I am not personally arguing about whether or not the order of builders placed new blocks with pulleys and so forth; my interest is in the central, 'original' Wall.

By this I mean not only the lowermost portions of the Wall, but innermost. Do we have any similar descriptions of seams, joins, clearly delineated lines that signify blocks from any of the character treks inside the Wall, such as the tunnel that exits north of Castle Black? Not a rhetorical question, I'm just personally having trouble finding one.
___

The point being that what some of us think might have happened was that there was an era in which the Nightfort was the only castle, and there was no order of builders, because the Wall didn't need an order of builders; the Wall did not need to reach insane heights because it was not meant to stop raiders with ladders.

Instead, we suspect a structure that only grew through glaciation--possibly a glaciation that was not at the mercy of the weather, but that was "fed" through blood sacrifice at the Nightfort, which is the root of the hatred that Free Folk such as Ygritte hold for the Wall, a hatred so deep that some Free Folk do not hold to Dalla's pragmatic point of view regarding the use of the Horn.

Lately I have been wondering if the Wall isn't built on top of water - specifically a river? I say this due to my belief that the Wall is a mirrored image of the long since destroyed one that was at the Trident. There is a deep gorge on the west end of the Wall with the Bridge of Skulls spanning it. So where does this gorge end? Is it actually underneath the Wall?

There's also said to be ice cells beneath Castle Black. I realize that they could be referred to that because they're so cold, but maybe it's because they are actually cut into the ice? Typically once you get 10 feet or more below ground you should have a relatively stable temperature of 50 degrees, which is cool, but certainly not freezing. 

 

[Black Crow]

36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Citadel with it's maesters seem to be waging a deliberate campaign of misinformation. We know they are against magic, but what possible benefit is it to them to dismiss ancient history or re-date the time lines of historic events?

But why do you consider it disinformation?

The argument we get from the likes of Hoster Blackwood and Sam Tarly is that what passes for popular history is a rag bag of legends; of knights before there were knights and so on. All the maesters of the citadel are doing is introducing a dose of reality and thereby shortening the legendary timelines.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lately I have been wondering if the Wall isn't built on top of water - specifically a river?

I'm not sure. We have a few lakes on the Wall (like a green lake next to Castle Deep Lake and another lake we know of I have forgotten). Then there are semi canon sources claiming the water runs in a stream from Deep Lake north to the Milkwater. 

But my uncertainty comes from the uncertainty where the watershed lies or would lie and the observation that almost all rivers in the north come from the mountains or a wood, like the wolfswood. The Milkwater (and it's change of course near Craster's Keep) and the Antler as well as all the other rivers and the mountains suggest that the watershed is in the western part of the Wall. So the river should run down the eastern part. But that is where we have our straight wall part - a line no river uses. In fact the watershed in the North is so far in the west, that it is questionable if it is not near or close to the Gorge itself or near the Shadow Tower.

While it like the idea, the geography has a problem with it.  

 

edit: Thinking about it, the stream from Castle Deep Lake to the Milkwater leaves me confused. Very confused. It suggests the high point of the ground the Wall is build upon is east of Deep Lake. Which does not make a lot of sense given the flat geography in the east or the entire northern river and mountain system.  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Possibly.

The one idisputable fact of the matter is that GRRM has presented us with two quite contradictory stories; one that it was improbably raised by generations of men and the other that it was raised by magic. We can quote scripture at each other from both sides of the argument but in the end it comes down to which you choose to believe, and quite frankly as man-made structures go, the Wall is not believeable and yet it exists so magic comes down to the more plausible explanation.

I tend to go with the ice blocks formed over time as water and air erode it's structure adding the weight of the ice itself causing cracking that makes it appear to be made of immense ice blocks.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

"Not everyone," said Halder. "It's the builders for me. What use would rangers be if the Wall fell down?"

The order of builders provided the masons and carpenters to repair keeps and towers, the miners to dig tunnels and crush stone for roads and footpaths, the woodsmen to clear away new growth wherever the forest pressed too close to the Wall. Once, it was said, they had quarried immense blocks of ice from frozen lakes deep in the haunted forest, dragging them south on sledges so the Wall might be raised ever higher. Those days were centuries gone, however; now, it was all they could do to ride the Wall from Eastwatch to the Shadow Tower, watching for cracks or signs of melt and making what repairs they could.

How big is an immense block of ice?  How deep are those lakes?

The Wall has the appearance of glacial ice:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon III

The largest structure ever built by the hands of man, Benjen Stark had told Jon on the kingsroad when they had first caught sight of the Wall in the distance. "And beyond a doubt the most useless," Tyrion Lannister had added with a grin, but even the Imp grew silent as they rode closer. You could see it from miles off, a pale blue line across the northern horizon, stretching away to the east and west and vanishing in the far distance, immense and unbroken. This is the end of the world, it seemed to say.

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

It's old ice calving off bits of itself like the leading edge of a glacier.  The simplest thing would be to fix magic to an existing structure.

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Citadel with it's maesters seem to be waging a deliberate campaign of misinformation. We know they are against magic, but what possible benefit is it to them to dismiss ancient history or re-date the time lines of historic events?

I've been trying to steer conversation in this direction.  Possibilies:

1) They believe making magic look less powerful and less recent will make people less interested in seeking it out, and more interested in the knowledge they can offer as well as the faith of 7.

2)  They are pro Andal and casting Andals in a more favorable light.

3)  The citidal and maesters did some horrible things in the past they want covered up.

Along with the faith, they are the only written record and advise everyone in charge, so this would be easy to do.

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But why do you consider it disinformation?

The argument we get from the likes of Hoster Blackwood and Sam Tarly is that what passes for popular history is a rag bag of legends; of knights before there were knights and so on. All the maesters of the citadel are doing is introducing a dose of reality and thereby shortening the legendary timelines.

"The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

"I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

  "As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

  "They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him.

  "They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

  "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from...but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow...we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother...and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Oce he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he-"

  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I've been trying to steer conversation in this direction.  Possibilies:

1) They believe making magic look less powerful and less recent will make people less interested in seeking it out, and more interested in the knowledge they can offer as well as the faith of 7.

2)  They are pro Andal and casting Andals in a more favorable light.

3)  The citidal and maesters did some horrible things in the past they want covered up.

Along with the faith, they are the only written record and advise everyone in charge, so this would be easy to do.

I don't think its so simple as that. The citadel and the maesters appear to predate the Andals, who brought the septons. I'm more inclined to see them as protagonists on the side of men against the old nameless gods of the wood and everything else that goes bump in the night.

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think its so simple as that. The citadel and the maesters appear to predate the Andals, who brought the septons. I'm more inclined to see them as protagonists on the side of men against the old nameless gods of the wood and everything else that goes bump in the night.

While it may technically be true that the Citadel isn't strictly Andal, it is connected very closely to the Faith of the Seven, which is an Andal religion.

The wiki states that the origin of the Citadel is disputed, but House Hightower is credited with it's foundation. While the Hightowers are First Men (or even pre-date the First Men) they follow the Faith of the Seven, which is why it is my assertion that they are allied with the Andals.

Prince Peremore "the twisted" Hightower was the sickly son of King Uthor, Peremore is credited with collecting the wise men, priests, teachers, healers, singers, wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers that were assembled as the first maesters.

 

[Brad Stark]

58 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think its so simple as that. The citadel and the maesters appear to predate the Andals, who brought the septons. I'm more inclined to see them as protagonists on the side of men against the old nameless gods of the wood and everything else that goes bump in the night.

Altering history and suppessing magic could be to protect the side of men against the old nameless gods of the wood and everything else that goes bump in the night.  We see hints this happened before with the Night King.

[Matthew.]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

While it may technically be true that the Citadel isn't strictly Andal, it is connected very closely to the Faith of the Seven, which is an Andal religion.

From the perspective of the Grey Sheep, the Faith of the Seven might be seen as a magically benign religion, seemingly having no tradition of blood sacrifice. I always mentally return to Aeron's chapters here, where he laments the influence of green land law and green land maesters; the 'Andalization' of Westeros, perhaps presented as a civilizing influence, has a secondary effect of weakening magic. Weirwood sacrifice is abandoned, true drownings are replaced by a more tepid baptism, etc. 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lately I have been wondering if the Wall isn't built on top of water - specifically a river? I say this due to my belief that the Wall is a mirrored image of the long since destroyed one that was at the Trident. There is a deep gorge on the west end of the Wall with the Bridge of Skulls spanning it. So where does this gorge end? Is it actually underneath the Wall?

There's also said to be ice cells beneath Castle Black. I realize that they could be referred to that because they're so cold, but maybe it's because they are actually cut into the ice? Typically once you get 10 feet or more below ground you should have a relatively stable temperature of 50 degrees, which is cool, but certainly not freezing. 

 

This thought occurred to me as well, that the snake part of the Wall was where it followed a river, while the sword part of the wall, was a canal used to connect the end of the river to the eastern shoreline.  Basically making a navigable channel through the north, which was later used to create the Wall. 

But going back over the quote and how the Wall runs west of Castle Black made me rethink this:

Quote

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west.  It was true.  Sweeping in over one huge humped hill, the ice dipped down into a valley, climbed the knife edge of a long granite ridgeline for a league or more , ran along a jagged crest, dipped again into a valley deeper still, then rose higher and higher, leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see, into the mountainous west.

A river wouldn't be running over the tops of hills.  So if the Wall directly came from a river west of Castle Black, than the Wall should follow a valley between the hills as opposed to running along the tops of the hills.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

This thought occurred to me as well, that the snake part of the Wall was where it followed a river, while the sword part of the wall, was a canal used to connect the end of the river to the eastern shoreline.  Basically making a navigable channel through the north, which was later used to create the Wall. 

But going back over the quote and how the Wall runs west of Castle Black made me rethink this:

A river wouldn't be running over the tops of hills.  So if the Wall directly came from a river west of Castle Black, than the Wall should follow a valley between the hills as opposed to running along the tops of the hills.

I agree, but a gorge usually has a river running at the bottom. The top of the gorge can still be mountainous.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Gorge_Bridge#/media/File%3ARoyal_Gorge_Bridge_(looking_west).jpg

[SirArthur]

The Milkwater runs through the Gorge. There is no contradiction.

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

You believe everything that GRRM says? When he says different things at different times

Well, he never has said a different thing on the subject of the time required to construct the Wall.  If you think he has, pony up the link.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That depends on whether the blocks actually exist as such. Yes, Jon sees them, but does he see what is actually there or does he see what he expects to see in the natural cracks and striations

"Natural cracks and striations" couldn't have fooled him... over and over... for seven hundred feet, bottom to top, as he stared at the Wall from point blank range.

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Do we have any similar descriptions of seams, joins, clearly delineated lines that signify blocks from any of the character treks inside the Wall, such as the tunnel that exits north of Castle Black? Not a rhetorical question, I'm just personally having trouble finding one.

No, I don't think there's anything like that about the interior.  

However, we do know that the very base of the Wall is made of blocks too -- not just the middle or top -- because:

Quote

Before them, the ice rose sheer from out of the trees like some immense cliff, crowned by wind-carved battlements that loomed at least eight hundred feet high, perhaps nine hundred in spots. But that was deceptive, Jon realized as they drew closer. Brandon the Builder had laid his huge foundation blocks along the heights wherever feasible, and hereabouts the hills rose wild and rugged.

And so it seems likely there are foundation blocks on both sides of the foundation, and all the way through.

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The point being that what some of us think might have happened was that there was an era in which the Nightfort was the only castle, and there was no order of builders, because the Wall didn't need an order of builders; the Wall did not need to reach insane heights because it was not meant to stop raiders with ladders.

That's what I think too.  

I think the Wall grew specifically to cope with the free folk, which in time became the Watch's only focus because the Popsicles had vanished from all memory of men (which is what Jeor Mormont says, too).  I just think it grew via the Watch's labor (which is also what Jeor Mormont says) as opposed to magic.  Which is why it's made of blocks from bottom to top.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

From the perspective of the Grey Sheep, the Faith of the Seven might be seen as a magically benign religion, seemingly having no tradition of blood sacrifice. I always mentally return to Aeron's chapters here, where he laments the influence of green land law and green land maesters; the 'Andalization' of Westeros, perhaps presented as a civilizing influence, has a secondary effect of weakening magic. Weirwood sacrifice is abandoned, true drownings are replaced by a more tepid baptism, etc. 

Yes, I think that rather than characterising the maesters as an Andal or Andal-dominated institution I would say that its the other way around and that the maesters were agin the Old Gods from the beginning and probably welcomed the Andals as providing some muscle. Its worth remembering that the Andal conquest appears to have been accomplished as much by intermarriage as by fire and sword

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, he never has said a different thing on the subject of the time required to construct the Wall.  If you think he has, pony up the link.

That was a very early SSM before he started revealing a different story in text. 

As for Jon, staring at the Wall so closely is not the way to see the form of blocks when the supposed gaps have formed chimneys and the like which can be climbed.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

"The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

"I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

  "As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

  "They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him.

  "They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

  "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from...but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow...we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother...and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Oce he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he-"

  

I don't doubt their influence, but as I've just said, I think would be a mistake to assume that represents an Andal takeover, but rather represents a secular struggle against the Old Gods leading to a rejection of human sacrifice and decorating trees with guts

[wolfmaid7]

On 3/4/2018 at 4:56 PM, SirArthur said:

I'm still not convinced. Neither for him having dreams nor for him having no dreams. And it comes down to some strange actions he performs without ever getting a POV of him or Renly or Robert. On the other hand not every character runs around with prophetic dreams (although Jaime running around with the tree stump story relativates that). So while there is no proof for him having the dreams, there are enough situations with other characters in the story (including his daughter) that prevent me from ruling out he has dreams.

What strange actions? Evetything he has done has been done via the machinations of Mel.

Nevertheless,you  miss my meaning.We were talking about what the text says makes a green seer besides the blood.

If Stannis could mingle his spirit with animals AND have prophetic dreams we would be in buisness.

Several people in this story may have prophetic dreams without the mingling.Or they may have the mingling without the dreams.

So if Stannis had one or the other it wouldn't matter.He needs to have both.

 

On 3/4/2018 at 3:27 PM, Matthew. said:

The issue I have with reading the woods witch as manipulative is that it doesn't seem to align with her characterization, as presented in ASOS, unless we're assuming that the woods witch (a dwarf that accompanied Jenny of Old Stones) and the Ghost of High Heart (a dwarf who always requests Jenny's Song) are different figures.

Perhaps the GoHH is so deep into dementia and senility that we cannot gauge the personality of her youth, but she doesn't seem especially deceptive in the way she presents her visions. Furthermore, her responses - such as what she perceives in Arya - are emotionally charged and unrestrained, and she doesn't demonstrate much inclination toward tact or dissembling, even when dealing with lords and bandits.

Well its the ole Neo and Oracle conversation again.

"Would you have broken the vase had I not said anything about it."

Though I do believe she has lost some of her marbles.

I am still in the dark about how a foreign prophecy ended up in the mouth of a Westrosi witch.Cus the manipulation may not or may have been hers she could have been a pawn.

1.Did she have a true dream or was this dream sent?

2.Could she have needed a pretense to get Jenny to take her to court for another reason and that prophecy was just a cover.Basically,what happened at court other than Jahearys making that match?

3.Was it a way to destabilize the Targs.That match inevitably led to their downfall.

 

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, JNR said:

No, I don't think there's anything like that about the interior.  

However, we do know that the very base of the Wall is made of blocks too -- not just the middle or top -- because:

And so it seems likely there are foundation blocks on both sides of the foundation, and all the way through.

That's what I think too.  

I think the Wall grew specifically to cope with the free folk, which in time became the Watch's only focus because the Popsicles had vanished from all memory of men (which is what Jeor Mormont says, too).  I just think it grew via the Watch's labor (which is also what Jeor Mormont says) as opposed to magic.  Which is why it's made of blocks from bottom to top.

I agree that the Watch built the Wall specifically to keep the wildlings contained. The ice magic was sealed and warded in the Nightfort’s well. That’s why there weren’t any white walkers.