A clue from GRRM. Could Littlefinger know about fAegon?

[Megorova]

Most likely Varys is a Blackfyre, and he came to 7K, to prepare from within of it, the Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres. First he planned to cause chaos in 7K, by clashing together King Aerys and his loyalists, against prince Rhaegar and his supporters. And then to use Golden Company, to defeat whoever will be left alive, after civil war between Targaryens.

So to achieve that goal, Varys created Birds Network in Westeros, and also he recruited agents all over 7K, including people from noble families. I think that that's when Petyr became one of Varys' little birds. Though later, when Varys' original plan was ruined/postponed because of Robert's Rebellion, LF decided to stop working for Varys, and went independent. What he did during the War of Five Kings, and what he's doing now - to create chaos and then divide and conquer, is a strategy that he learned from Varys.

And Petyr is using mockingbirds as his personal sigil, because they symbolise his victory over Varys - he's mocking Varys with those birds, that he outsmarted him, infiltrated his close circle, became his confidant, learned from him, found out his secrets, and then betrayed him, and left Little Ligue, to become major player in the Game of Thrones, and to pursue his own goals.

Thus LF knows a lot of things about Varys' plans, including upcoming arrival of fAegon and Golden Company, but Varys knows nearly nothing about LF's plans. Though I think that maybe Kettleblacks are actually working for Varys, even though LF think that they are loyal to him. Could be that years ago, when LF was still working for Varys, Varys has sent Kettleblacks to stay close to LF, and spy after him, just in case.

[Rufus Snow]

15 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

In my opinion, the tapestries are relevant, but not necessarily for what's depicted in them. It may be that the act of transporting them was important (I seem to remember theories that someone/something was hidden in them in transit from KL). It may be that his giving them to Nestor Royce had some significance we can't quite fathom (beyond the obvious ingratiation angle). 

It would be quite good misdirection for the tapestries to be important, but what is shown on them is not.

Now, that is not a bad idea, one I hadn't come across before. Maybe LF had hidden something there and he wanted it back, and once he'd got it, what the hell's he gonna do with some ugly tapestries he doesn't need any more? Fob 'em off on Nestor, perhaps.... Anyway, I'm just short of this section in my current re-read, so I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for further clues...

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Now, that is not a bad idea, one I hadn't come across before. Maybe LF had hidden something there and he wanted it back, and once he'd got it, what the hell's he gonna do with some ugly tapestries he doesn't need any more? Fob 'em off on Nestor, perhaps.... Anyway, I'm just short of this section in my current re-read, so I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for further clues...

It's bugging me, because I can't find the thread, or recall what the theory was, but I think someone suggested that a person or a thing (I forget what) was hidden in the tapestries. I remember not being convinced of the exact theory at the time I read it, but thinking they might be on to something with regards to the tapestries' importance. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So to achieve that goal, Varys created Birds Network in Westeros, and also he recruited agents all over 7K, including people from noble families. I think that that's when Petyr became one of Varys' little birds. Though later, when Varys' original plan was ruined/postponed because of Robert's Rebellion, LF decided to stop working for Varys, and went independent. What he did during the War of Five Kings, and what he's doing now - to create chaos and then divide and conquer, is a strategy that he learned from Varys.

And Petyr is using mockingbirds as his personal sigil, because they symbolise his victory over Varys - he's mocking Varys with those birds, that he outsmarted him, infiltrated his close circle, became his confidant, learned from him, found out his secrets, and then betrayed him, and left Little Ligue, to become major player in the Game of Thrones, and to pursue his own goals.

Interesting theory, but I'm not convinced at all. It seems like Varys's little birds don't tend to be the children of nobility, but urchins. Added to that, if Varys thought LF knew of all his plans, why wouldn't he just kill him, particularly if LF broke with Varys prior to becoming Master of Coin. No-one would have cared. 

[zandru]

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think that's definitive to be honest. 

I agree. Sometimes a tapestry is just a tapestry, as Sigmund Freud said. A kingly gift, which cost the giver nothing and which he cared nothing for. Had some object been "hidden" in the tapestries, it would have been discovered when they were packed up for transit, particularly if they'd been cleaned. (You would want to be sure they were clean and free of vermin before shipping, and since they were going to The Lord Of Harrenhal and Most Esteemed Warden of the Vale, the tapestries would most definitely have been thoroughly cleaned before packing.)

Of course, this doesn't address the question of whether or not Littlefinger knows about Young Griff/Aegon as part of Varys's cunning plot. I'd say it's definitely possible, since Baelish seems to have connections in the Free Cities. How will he use Young Griff's invasion of the far south to further his disruptive plans? Has he scoped this out already? If a "Targaryen" re-takes the Iron Throne from Cersei, is this better, or worse, for Lord Littlefinger?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, zandru said:

If a "Targaryen" re-takes the Iron Throne from Cersei, is this better, or worse, for Lord Littlefinger?

You would expect LF to have a plan to at least ensure he doesn't lose out from that eventuality if he thinks it's possible. He says to Sansa that he expected Cersei to screw up, and had "planted seeds" to prepare for it. We know he's aware of Dany and her dragons, so they surely factor into his plots. 

Of course, one of the great mysteries of the series is what exactly Littlefinger's master plan is, or whether he even has one overarching plan or just a selection of moves prepared for various eventualities. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Interesting theory, but I'm not convinced at all. It seems like Varys's little birds don't tend to be the children of nobility, but urchins. Added to that, if Varys thought LF knew of all his plans, why wouldn't he just kill him, particularly if LF broke with Varys prior to becoming Master of Coin. No-one would have cared. 

I meant, that he could have all sorts of people serving to him - street urchins as his Little Birds; Balon Swann, Gerold Dayne, Bronn, Kettleblacks and Littlefinger as his agents. Though originally LF's status was very low, so he also was somewhere on lower levels of Varys' Network, somewhere between little birds, and spies with higher standing (those that were promised something, in return for their services to Blackfyres, when Blackfyre will become King of 7K).

Also it was mentioned somewhere, probably in Tyrion's chapter, that Varys has little birds even in Citadel. I think that his spy there could be Carellen Smallwood, whose mother is a Swann. And Swanns are working for Blackfyres. Maybe. Whether my conspiracy theory is right or wrong, we will find out, when Balon Swann will encounter Gerold Dayne, whom he supposedly went to kill. If he will attack Gerold, then I was wrong, and the two of them are not working together. But if instead, he will attack that Sand girl, that went with him, then I was right. It's just that those two attacks on Lannisters (Mandon Moore X Tyrion, and Gerold Dayne X Myrcella) are too alike, to be unconnected. I think that both of those attacks were staged by Varys, to clash Lannisters against each other, to make Tyrion think, that Cersei tried to kill him, and to make Cersei think, that attack on Myrcella was Tyrion's plot.

Though probably LF separated from Varys' Spy Network, some time prior Jon Arryn's death, or maybe just a few years prior beginning of AGOT, but already after he became master of coin. He wouldn't have reached so far, without Varys' assistance, even though he had Lysa's support.

And why he didn't killed LF, is because of this:

"Littlefinger smiled. “Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.” He cupped his fingers, smiling. “Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.”"

If LF will die, then what he knew about Varys, and his plots with Blackfyres, will become known. LF is using insurance against Varys. So Varys can't kill him, that will endanger himself and his people.

[Daendrew]

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I definitely think the tapestries are important for some reason, as they are mentioned too many times, and described too specifically, to be disregarded. Unfortunately I haven't yet been convinced by any of the theories as to their relevance advanced by scholars on this forum. It's one of those little mysteries that nags at me. 

I theorized that the tapestries are a medieval DNA test. https://endgameofthrones.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/maury-povich-and-the-baratheon-tapestries-as-a-dna-test-robert-you-are-not-the-father/

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I meant, that he could have all sorts of people serving to him - street urchins as his Little Birds; Balon Swann, Gerold Dayne, Bronn, Kettleblacks and Littlefinger as his agents. Though originally LF's status was very low, so he also was somewhere on lower levels of Varys' Network, somewhere between little birds, and spies with higher standing (those that were promised something, in return for their services to Blackfyres, when Blackfyre will become King of 7K).

I'll grant you, Varys probably does have informers other than the Little Birds, and it's not entirely inconceivable LF could theoretically have been one of them.

 

15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It's just that those two attacks on Lannisters (Mandon Moore X Tyrion, and Gerold Dayne X Myrcella) are too alike, to be unconnected.

This doesn't invalidate anything else you are arguing, but I don't think they're so alike they have to be related. Hacking at someone with a sword is pretty standard. It's like saying the JFK and Tupac assassinations have to be related because they were both shot. There's only so many ways to kill someone, and as both agents were knights, the sword is pretty much their go-to move.

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though probably LF separated from Varys' Spy Network, some time prior Jon Arryn's death, or maybe just a few years prior beginning of AGOT, but already after he became master of coin. He wouldn't have reached so far, without Varys' assistance, even though he had Lysa's support

Why not? The reasoning for how he got so high up is laid out quite simply. He was exceptionally talented with money, and proved that in Arryn's service. Arryn was Hand to a massive spender, and needed a guy like him. He was able to ingratiate himself with other powerful people by being very clever and very helpful. That doesn't mean he didn't have help from Varys, but there's clearly a path to him becoming Master of Coin without such assistance. 

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And why he didn't killed LF, is because of this:

"Littlefinger smiled. “Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.” He cupped his fingers, smiling. “Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.”"

If LF will die, then what he knew about Varys, and his plots with Blackfyres, will become known. LF is using insurance against Varys. So Varys can't kill him, that will endanger himself and his people.

Yeah that might work. It would actually explain why Varys didn't have LF bumped off years ago, even if he wasn't a former protege.

Still, I'm far from convinced. Varys wouldn't exactly need an agent on the small council when he is there already, and helping one of his own agents accumulate enough power and knowledge to threaten him seems like a bit too much of a rookie mistake. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

21 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

I theorized that the tapestries are a medieval DNA test. https://endgameofthrones.wordpress.com/2015/05/20/maury-povich-and-the-baratheon-tapestries-as-a-dna-test-robert-you-are-not-the-father/

Very nicely argued post.

They could act as glorified visual aids for Littlefinger to wave at the Royces, that's true, but the (small) problem with your theory is this bit:

Quote

The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms is the book Jon Arryn asked for and Ned read before he was killed for exposing the twincest. There is no DNA test in Westeros, so aside from Cersei admitting it publicly, which she won’t, then the tapestries are a pictorial version of the Lineages and Histories, which is very important because most of Westeros is an illiterate society.

The literate and illiterate alike can look at the tapestries showing strong black haired, blue eyed Baratheons. One after another. Each with the signature Baratheons black hair and blue eyes. Not a single blonde haired member. Then they will they think about what Tommen and Myrcella look like and scratch their head and think if the rumors really are true.

He wouldn't need to show the Royces tapestries, he could show them the/a book. The small folk may be mostly illiterate, but the Royces certainly aren't. They also have Maesters who can verify what Littlefinger says. The smallfolk (if anyone thinks they need to bother trying to convince them), can't exactly be filed into Nestor Royce's hall one by one to view his tapestries, so unless Littlefinger drapes them on an advan and drives it around the Vale, I don't really see how they'd help.

Of course, that doesn't completely invalidate your argument. If LF is looking for an opportunity to "out" the Twincest, and thinks the tapestries, which no one cares about and are just gathering dust, might help. Why not ask for them?

However, it doesn't seem that the Royces need much convincing to get to grips with the Lannisters. Bronze Yohn was almost in open rebellion demanding that Lysa did that anyway, as his loyalty to the Starks/Tullys, by his reckoning, trumped his loyalty to Joffrey. If LF reveals Sansa to be Ned's daughter, I don't think they'll need convincing about the Twincest as well. 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Yep, this is all true, but that was the only real 'data point' I could connect it too. Anyway, I've been mulling it over whilst doing some washing up, and came back for this:

1) we don't know how old the tapestries are

2) we don't know who commissioned them

3) we don't know what they show

4) we don't know if they are generic 'hunting is cool' type pictures, or specific 'this was a great hunt we all went on' sort of images

So, I might imagine - and this is pure speculation and grasping at straws, I admit - perhaps one of them shows a specific known event, with someone present who was either supposed to be somewhere else, or already dead or something along those lines. I've racked my brains and come up blank on that, but does anyone here recall any famous hunting deaths/accidents, or particularly famous hunts? What I'm grasping at is the scenes might record or disprove an alibi of someone in the past??? I don't know for myself, but hope if I chuck the idea out it might spark someone off.

(Oh, and I really don't want to hear about 'stitches in time' and one of the scenes being 'Needleshopped' to show Lancel with the strongwine )

I think this is a good line of thinking. 

The hunting tapestries might be from the Targs and Robert just moved them to the throne room after removing the dragon skulls. For this to happen though, the hunting scenes would have to not have any Targs or Targ references which is conceivable. I know in real life, some tapestries had stitching which functioned as a code to hide secrets, but I don’t see anything about this in the books and I don’t think this is common knowledge for the reader so I highly doubt this is the importance of the tapestries. I did some research into ASOIAF’s tapestries and they’re very connected to hiding things intentionally or not whether it’s proof about Baratheons or people hiding behind tapestries. Given all of the castles in the series, you’d think there would be more tapestries mentioned in passing but there aren’t and this seems to underscore the importance of them when they are mentioned.

No one can convince me that LF doesn’t know RLJ because there’s no way he wouldn’t try to use Ned’s mistress(es) and bastard(s) to try to get near Catelyn again, so I’ve toyed with the idea that Rhaegar commissioned a hunting tapestry as proof of Jon knowing he might die in battle. He could have chosen a hunting scene knowing Robert would favor such a scene, and made it so large that it would only fit in the Throne Room which of course would be empty of  dragon skulls should he and Aerys not make it. The tapestry is finished and delivered not long after Robert’s reign begins, he thinks it’s just a hunting scene and likes it so he puts in the empty throne room. But I don’t see any evidence of this tentative or otherwise so I don’t think it happened. Just an idea...

----------------------------------------------------

The only real plan that the reader knows about where Varys is concerned is Aegon. Except Varys’ story doesn’t quite add up and his motives seem more complex than that. Varys talks about the common folk being abused, but cuts the tongues out of the mouths of children and has no problem asking Illyrio for more of these children. Varys lets his guard down in front of Ned as he does with Tyrion and seems genuine in wanting to save Ned which seems to go beyond wanting to delay a war. Yet he only tells Illyrio that “one hand is not the other” when Illyrio talks of taking Ned out. So I’m not convinced at all about Illyrio’s and Varys’ alliance. Varys might be playing Illyrio and vice versa.

LF may know something about Varys that the reader does not know.

If it’s Aegon though, then I’m not sure what the plot significance of this would be. LF would be finding out soon enough as Aegon is in Westeros as of the end of AFFC/ADWD roughly (not great with exact times of things). If he made no move in response to Aegon either in trying to take him out or making moves in anticipation for his arrival, then there’s no plot reason for him to have known that I can think of. So if LF knew about Aegon for some time, what moves did LF make in anticipation of this as LF made no move to take Aegon out? I think he would have found a way to accomplish Aegon's assassination because as Tyrion pointed out, JonCon's disguises were quite easy to see through and LF has contacts with the Iron Bank and maybe the FM. Or maybe LF sees Aegon as useful to himself somehow? If so, he surely didn't anticipate Tyrion or anyone convincing Aegon to turn towards Westeros so soon and without Dany.

 

[Lord Asher Forrester]

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's bugging me, because I can't find the thread, or recall what the theory was, but I think someone suggested that a person or a thing (I forget what) was hidden in the tapestries. I remember not being convinced of the exact theory at the time I read it, but thinking they might be on to something with regards to the tapestries' importance. 

It was a thread about the Blackfyre conspiracy, the sword Blackfyre would be smuggled within the tapestries to prove that f(Aegon) was the Blackfyre heir or something like that...It was a weak thesis anyways.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

34 minutes ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

It was a thread about the Blackfyre conspiracy, the sword Blackfyre would be smuggled within the tapestries to prove that f(Aegon) was the Blackfyre heir or something like that...It was a weak thesis anyways.

I agree the actual detail of the theory was weak, but I liked the idea of the tapestries being significant, but not necessarily for what was depicted on them.

No offence to other forum members, who put in much more time and effort than I do, but I've found all the theories about the tapestries to be unconvincing, while being utterly convinced of their importance.

If the tapestries turn out to be irrelevant, I'm going to be really annoyed!

[Lord Lannister]

I always figured that Littlefinger's interest in the Targaryen tapestries would be just to hedge his bets. He's already set himself up as de facto ruler of the Vale and de jure ruler of the Riverlands while holding a possible heir to the North in his keeping. That's three kingdoms worth of influence he wouldn't want to lose in the case of a regime change. As he's already one of the (L)Baratheon regime's key advisors, this could be his way of hedging his bets that he really sympathizes with the Targaryens but never had any way to show it. Telling tales of woe about how the cruel Starks scarred him as a young man would only make the tale more convincing. Heck, he could even do something radical and bring out the truth of how he was a key player in sabotaging the (L)Baratheon regime, putting the Starks and Lannisters against one another, and weakening the kingdom overall for a Targaryen restoration.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always figured that Littlefinger's interest in the Targaryen tapestries would be just to hedge his bets.

Every indication is that they are Baratheon tapestries though. At the very least, there's little to no indication they are Targaryen.

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

GRRM is very much focused on english inheritage law and if it is good for anything, then that not acknowledged bastards do not count. As far as we know he has only ever acknowledged one bastard and the entire realm knows who that is. Even Stannis thinks Edric is the proof. There is really not much about Mya Littlefinger can use. Plus she is female.

I'm not suggesting trying to put her into power, I'm talking about the look.  The book Pycelle had in KL would not be rare, and if there is a particularly accurate portrait of Robert on any of the tapestries that may be what he wanted.  

I don't believe that's the case anyway, I think the matter was settled in the sample chapter, that's why I said if it has to do with lineage.

[aryagonnakill#2]

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

They don't though, they're repeatedly described as hunting scenes. 

That's why I said if, I'm pointing out that it is a more likely scenario than having to do with Aegon.  I think the matter was settled in the sample chapter.

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Every indication is that they are Baratheon tapestries though. At the very least, there's little to no indication they are Targaryen.

Given Lannister forces looted Darry it's conceivable the Targ tapestries were taken to KL. LF could've arranged to have them stored with Robert's. He very well couldn't ask Cersei to send him tapestries of the Targaryen kings could he? But if both sets of tapestries were stored together, the servants would just do as told and ship them all away.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Given Lannister forces looted Darry it's conceivable the Targ tapestries were taken to KL. LF could've arranged to have them stored with Robert's. He very well couldn't ask Cersei to send him tapestries of the Targaryen kings could he? But if both sets of tapestries were stored together, the servants would just do as told and ship them all away.

That's an interesting thought. Though, if I remember rightly wasn't it the Mountain who captured Castle Darry? He didn't bother to capture the boy lord for ransom, so I don't see him pausing to pack up wall hangings.

 

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's an interesting thought. Though, if I remember rightly wasn't it the Mountain who captured Castle Darry? He didn't bother to capture the boy lord for ransom, so I don't see him pausing to pack up wall hangings.

 

The Mountain? No. But his men perhaps. Medieval soldiers loot by nature regardless of what side they're on. Who was the Master of Coin then and thus in charge of processing profits? I could see LF paying a pittance for them out of the crown's coffers for something that might be useful later and tucking them away.