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TTTNE 473: An Obsession of Joshes


Buckwheat

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So much feels. 

I don’t think the third world is responsible for the state of the environment, especially if we look at the garbage situation. The West is clearly the overconsumer that produces the vast majority of garbage. And didn’t countries like the US and Canada pull out of the Kyoto protocol? What about that? 

Straws are completely unnecessary to beverage consumption and their elimination makes absolute sense. No practical hardship will stem from their absence, imo. In fact, we could perfectly drink from metal cans and glass containers too, which are easier and less harmful to recycle than plastic bottles. It’s a matter of awareness and product design to make them as practical as plastic ones. 

And to connect all this to the socialism issue, and argue further with the basic principle of Vin’s, everything shouldn’t be a subject to practicality, efficiency and productivity in life. There are other equally or more important values. 

1 hour ago, Buckwheat said:

 

How do straws give you wrinkles?

I actually am not sure about my parents. But my grandfather is still very keen on socialism, as far as I know. He remembers it as "the good old times" and ... TBH, idealises it a bit (or a lot), as humans are prone to do with anything to do with the past.

The same way cigarettes do, through the pursing of your lips when you suck the beverage out through the straw. Overuse of straws creates these yoda-like vertical lines around your lips. At least it doesn’t make it worse by dehydrating the skin too, like smoking does. I think I went into too much detail. I don’t have straw wrinkles. I have frown wrinkles though... I need to shut up about wrinkles. :leaving: 

The same applied to my grandparents may they Rest In Peace. They absolutely loved socialism and thought it was a great era. Of course, everybody thinks their youth is the best era. My great grandmother thought the Horthy era* was the best of all worlds for the same reason. 

 

*the period between the two world wars named after the reigning governor 

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8 hours ago, Nazca Barsavi said:

 

Oh please, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much of an inconvenience is it for you to use either re-usable or recyclable straws and shopping bags?

But sure, let's keep feeding the garbage patches covering the oceans that already contain every discarded piece of plastic that was produced in the last 50 years. Microplastic is ubiquitous, poisoing species and finding its way into the food chain. Even if the amount contributed by straws and bags is rather small, banning or limiting them is a first step into the right direction and the consumer awareness generated around the issue is certainly a non-negligible factor. If your house is on fire, your problem won't be solved by pouring more gasoline on it.

And who is the West to tell the oh so evil boogieman developing countries in the aftermath of colonialism what to do while they struggle with poverty, hunger, lack of education and basic human rights enforcement? The whole idea of sustainability is based on a synergy of environmental protection, economic development and social factors and it can't really be achieved if one of the components is missing, so of course developing countries have their priorities elsewhere. It's clear that they can't drive forward a process of industrialisation that is as heedless as the one that got the West to where it's at today and that the current state of science has to be respected. The West in turn is obligated to put more scientific and financial resources into environmental protection and damage control, it's called the principle of common but differentiated responsiblities and is implemented in many mechanisms of environmental conventions, the Paris Agreement and the Kyoto Protocol being the most prominent.

Of course reality differs a lot from these nice sounding moral arguments, but progress is being made even if it's in small steps. Since we're already running towards resource depletion and the era of climate change, I'd say that any effort counts.

So ? You have refuted NON of my arguments and presented no counter points . You just doubled down on emotional drivel .

If you personally feel like limiting your shopping bags and straws and what not to help the environment then by all means go ahead , that's your prerogative and you're certainly free to pursue it .(I personally use reusable bags for my shopping) Try to raise awareness if you like or even incentivize it but when you try to LEGISLATE it and FORCE people to follow your inclinations then you're crossing into extremely dangerous territory of giving the government more power ,now I'm certainly not arguing the anarchist perspective of government should intervene in nothing, that's ludicrous but I also will not willingly hand more power to the government ,who's already overbearing and incompetent , to control my life over a measly non consequential 0.6 % notice how I said inconsequential not "small" ? There's a huge difference(to use your analogy ,the house is on fire and you wanna piss on it to put out the fire.) . Now if we're talking about the government investigating something actually consequential like industrial fishing nets and for example setting a standard of using biodegradable nets (they already exist,they're made from coconut of all things ) then I can definitely be persuaded to be on board with that because it will have an actual impact and implementation plan that involves minimal tyranny . 

Your entire argument is predicated on "you're a selfish evil person if you don't do what I think is best and I'm gonna get the government to force you " . Sorry , that's not gonna fly .

As for your point on China, you're simply being dishonest in your argument . You're talking about China like it's some obscure African nation that has no access to running water or electricity. They're the largest industry ! No one is asking Zimbabwe (whenever they stop killing each other and declare a winner for the election) to implement expensive high tech solutions that might cripple their economy . China is the largest industry and India has a fucking space program , a damn good one too! So stop pretending they're living in hovels and asking me to feel shame for something I didn't do .

Stop moralising and address actual points of argument based on facts , statistics and philosophical consistency in your principles.

BTW , I've written my state representative about this issue , detailing how I believe we SHOULD actually try to better regulate industrial fishing equipment . Just doing a bit of that moralising .

Hope you don't take this personally . It's just that I don't see your argument holding water other than being an emotional club to try to beat me over the head with it .

1 hour ago, Buckwheat said:

 

Pfffff. I wish. :rolleyes: I just got turned down for two jobs for your researchers at my uni. The next opening will probably be available 10 years from now. No, I still occasionally teach and proofread on shitty contracts.

Aaaand ... honestly, I don't really think about it? I mean, nobody really respects Melanija that I know of, but really, it just does not influence me in any way. :dunno: 

 

 

@Vin, don't want to go into prolonged debates, but lets just say that we have some very different opinions about what the state's job is and isn't.

Also everything @Nazca Barsavi said. If one does not think even a little about how one's actions are impacting the environment, that is just selfish.

Sorry to hear you didn't get the jobs . 10 years is a long time , are you trying to teach ? 

Yeah , I don't get it either . Why does anyone care who the president has sex with ? Unless it's like a national security risk and he's having sex with ,I dunno ,Osama Bin Laden or something ,I guess .

And those different opinions are fine , we would meet at the voting ballot , cast different votes and then go have a drink together and have a good time talking about a good book . :) merging the political with the personal and saying they're the same thing is stupid imo . I can disagree with someone and still think they're a good and decent person.

Oh I think about it . I think about it a lot actually . I just do it from a logical and practical perspective and weigh possible avenues of action against my values, the highest of which happens to be freedom and the sovereignty of the individual. And that's why a sad turtle picture on social media doesn't get me riled up to pass tyrannical inconsequential feel good solutions.

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26 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

So much feels. 

I don’t think the third world is responsible for the state of the environment, especially if we look at the garbage situation. The West is clearly the overconsumer that produces the vast majority of garbage. And didn’t countries like the US and Canada pull out of the Kyoto protocol? What about that? 

Straws are completely unnecessary to beverage consumption and their elimination makes absolute sense. No practical hardship will stem from their absence, imo. In fact, we could perfectly drink from metal cans and glass containers too, which are easier and less harmful to recycle than plastic bottles. It’s a matter of awareness and product design to make them as practical as plastic ones. 

And to connect all this to the socialism issue, and argue further with the basic principle of Vin’s, everything shouldn’t be a subject to practicality, efficiency and productivity in life. There are other equally or more important values. 

The same way cigarettes do, through the pursing of your lips when you suck the beverage out through the straw. Overuse of straws creates these yoda-like vertical lines around your lips. At least it doesn’t make it worse by dehydrating the skin too, like smoking does. I think I went into too much detail. I don’t have straw wrinkles. I have frown wrinkles though... I need to shut up about wrinkles. :leaving: 

The same applied to my grandparents may they Rest In Peace. They absolutely loved socialism and thought it was a great era. Of course, everybody thinks their youth is the best era. My great grandmother thought the Horthy era* was the best of all worlds for the same reason. 

 

*the period between the two world wars named after the reigning governor 

Statistically and factually false . If we take green house gas emissions as an example (of a country's effect on the environment) ,which are main cause of global warming we find that the top contributors are as follows :

 

  Count share of global CO2 emissions
1 China 23.43 %
2 U.S. 14.69 %
3 India 5.70 %
4 Russian Federation 4.87 %
5 Brazil 4.17 %
6 Japan 3.61 %
7 Indonesia 2.31 %
8 Germany 2.23 %
9 Korea 1.75 %
10 Canada 1.57 %
11 Iran 1.57 %

 

So there you go , and BTW the west is not the same industrial powerhouse you're imagining. We're a powerhouse in stuff like transistor wafer development but straight up industry ? Everything's is made in China and Taiwan (plastic mainly) and most clothing is made in India . And BTW this isn't something for us to be proud of , we are no longer capable of meeting our own needs if for some reason international trade was infringed upon for any reason .

 

Why doesn't anyone think of freedom and the philosophical implications of principle ? What you're advocating is that the government gets to throw me in jail or fine me if I want to use a straw . That's tyranny . The government is not my daddy .Why are so okay with giving more power to the government ?  If you think straws suck (pun intended) then by all means don't buy them and if you're given one with a beverage,feel free to give it back . Ask your friends and relatives not to use them , start an organization that goes door to door and informs the people of the evils of straws , don't buy from cafes that use them , implement market pressure , if no one uses them they'll stop making them . This is all fine . getting the government to force people to adhere to your sensibilities and giving them more power ? Big nope .

 

Like what ? Mystic voodoo ? :P  I presented an argument based on statistics, factual information and philosophical consistency along the principles of freedom . That is the best way to decide anything imo . I am however always open to improving the model if you have something .

 

About people remembering socialism favorably , I think you have to look individual experiences because for a lot of people if you kept your head down and didn't say anything the Kremlin didn't like (at least not where the political commissar or the kgb can hear you ...) you got a job and bread on the table and for a lot of people ,especially after the war that was a good life but for people who were political decedents who wanted a free press and democracy and , to use your example, more than 2 flavors of ice cream if any ... those people got to go to gulags and see the basement of kgb buildings where the floor tiles were slanted so the drain can catch all the blood . (Sorry if this is colorful . It's bit personal for me since my family happened to belong to the second group). It really is funny to me that the greatest supporters of socialism are those living in the lap of privilege of capitalism . I don't see anyone in Venezuela praising how fair and noble socialism is .  /rant.

 

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Wow. The way I see it, it’s kinda hard to not take something personally if you call another person dishonest and give them imperative notices to stop doing things (maybe only) you perceive they are doing. 

What I understood from this is that legislating something you disagree with is tyranny, but you can get on board with legislating something you agree with. I don’t believe that’s how governments, democracy or life works. And while I’m certain you are a very intelligent and educated individual, I also do not believe that the government can or should attempt to comply with, or even read every incoming letter from citizens who all have (possibly very) different ideas about how the government should govern.

On a lighter note, I love the idea of keeping my shit in biodegradable coconut bags. 

ETA: Oh damn, I should have waited to read my share first :lmao: 

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2 minutes ago, Vin said:

Statistically and factually false . If we take green house gas emissions as an example (of a country's effect on the environment) ,which are main cause of global warming we find that the top contributors are as follows :

 

  Count share of global CO2 emissions
1 China 23.43 %
2 U.S. 14.69 %
3 India 5.70 %
4 Russian Federation 4.87 %
5 Brazil 4.17 %
6 Japan 3.61 %
7 Indonesia 2.31 %
8 Germany 2.23 %
9 Korea 1.75 %
10 Canada 1.57 %
11 Iran 1.57 %

 

So there you go , and BTW the west is not the same industrial powerhouse you're imagining. We're a powerhouse in stuff like transistor wafer development but straight up industry ? Everything's is made in China and Taiwan (plastic mainly) and most clothing is made in India . And BTW this isn't something for us to be proud of , we are no longer capable of meeting our own needs if for some reason international trade was infringed upon for any reason .

 

Why doesn't anyone think of freedom and the philosophical implications of principle ? What you're advocating is that the government gets to throw me in jail or fine me if I want to use a straw . That's tyranny . The government is not my daddy .Why are so okay with giving more power to the government ?  If you think straws suck (pun intended) then by all means don't buy them and if you're given one with a beverage,feel free to give it back . Ask your friends and relatives not to use them , start an organization that goes door to door and informs the people of the evils of straws , don't buy from cafes that use them , implement market pressure , if no one uses them they'll stop making them . This is all fine . getting the government to force people to adhere to your sensibilities and giving them more power ? Big nope .

 

Like what ? Mystic voodoo ? :P  I presented an argument based on statistics, factual information and philosophical consistency along the principles of freedom . That is the best way to decide anything imo . I am however always open to improving the model if you have something .

 

About people remembering socialism favorably , I think you have to look individual experiences because for a lot of people if you kept your head down and didn't say anything the Kremlin didn't like (at least not where the political commissar or the kgb can hear you ...) you got a job and bread on the table and for a lot of people ,especially after the war that was a good life but for people who were political decedents who wanted a free press and democracy and , to use your example, more than 2 flavors of ice cream if any ... those people got to go to gulags and see the basement of kgb buildings where the floor tiles were slanted so the drain can catch all the blood . (Sorry if this is colorful . It's bit personal for me since my family happened to belong to the second group). It really is funny to me that the greatest supporters of socialism are those living in the lap of privilege of capitalism . I don't see anyone in Venezuela praising how fair and noble socialism is .  /rant.

 

I don’t remember saying anything about the green house effect or CO2 emission or global warming, other than mentioning that Canada and the US aren’t in the Kyoto protocol (which is factually correct) so I’m not sure how I can be factually or statistically wrong about that, but thank you for educating us with this data. 

And I also didn’t say anything about how industrialized the West is, I reflected on how the West is the chronically consumerist part of the world compared to BRIC or third world countries which -in my opinion - correlates with the amount of garbage we produce - I may be statistically wrong about this, of course. 

As someone who enjoys shopping, I do know the stuff I buy in Zara comes from Bangladesh (this is an illustrative example, H&M might come from Bangladesh and Zara from somewhere else, this is hardly the point) but this brings up the philosophical question of who is responsible for the harmful effect of textile/plastic/iPhone production in China/India/Bangladesh, the country itself or the corporation that outsourced it’s production to said country because it was cost efficient (due to cheap labor, low production costs, better tax deals, and maybe little to no environmental regulations? - I could google some specifics but I don’t feel invested enough in the topic so I will risk being factually wrong here). Responsibility should at least be shared. 

I will not go into the government topic, because I see liberty and government vastly differently than you. 

The greatest supporters of socialsm being the people who live in the lap of privilege of capitalism - I would like to see some statistics about this too, because to me it sounds like quite a strong generalization. Then again, the socialism my country experienced was far from the one say Cambodia experienced. There’s even a saying (which I can’t translate properly) that says we were the playground or summer camp or whatever of the socialist block, meaning that we had it relatively great compared to other nations devoured by the CCCP. This may cause some level of bias on how our citizens saw/see socialism. 

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19 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Wow. The way I see it, it’s kinda hard to not take something personally if you call another person dishonest and give them imperative notices to stop doing things (maybe only) you perceive they are doing. 

What I understood from this is that legislating something you disagree with is tyranny, but you can get on board with legislating something you agree with. I don’t believe that’s how governments, democracy or life works. And while I’m certain you are a very intelligent and educated individual, I also do not believe that the government can or should attempt to comply with, or even read every incoming letter from citizens who all have (possibly very) different ideas about how the government should govern.

On a lighter note, I love the idea of keeping my shit in biodegradable coconut bags. 

ETA: Oh damn, I should have waited to read my share first :lmao: 

Calling dishonest points in an argument is not the same as calling the person dishonest .  I'm sure you've had an alcoholic beverage once in your life , does that make you an alcoholic ? 

Well if this is what you understood from what I said then no , you don't really understand it at all . I'm sure you can see the difference between regulating industry and telling factories they can't dumb their waste in the river and telling fishing companies that they can't just dump their equipment in the ocean is different than telling a private citizen that they can't use a straw . I'm sure in your head it sounds like a nice polite suggestion to please help save the environment but in reality legal language and procedures have to be drawn up and implemented . It's a big deal that people can go to jail over .anyone using a straw infringes on absolutely no one's rights . Why not ban cigarettes while we're at it ? It's bad for the environment and your health . Why not bring back alcohol prohibition ? It's the same concept, you don't get to dictate my personal life as long as I'm not infringing on other people's rights .

 

I have the right to petition my representative . Public offices ,as the name suggests are beholden to the public, they do not ascend into government godhood .

The fishing nets are what's made of coconut, making it biodegradable . Actual shopping bags are made from thicker plastic , the idea is that you use one bag for a few months as opposed to fifty of the thin bags .

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Okay, that was overly serious for a Friday night and double posting is just not enough for me so I’ll go ahead and share some good old everyday things. 

My aircon is apparently totally empty of gas. I am supposed to get information from the previous owner on whether or not it was ever filled with gas, then the nice, yet forgetful repairman will return to fill my aircon with gas and some other formula that will show if and where the unit leaks. Not only will this take weeks while it’s 30-35C in the city, it will also cost me about half a monthly salary. Aside from the fact that two parallel constructions are taking place in fifteen meters proximity of my bedroom and noisy college students invade the street every night, I now have to manage sleeping (or lack there of) in a 28C room. Need I say that I haven’t had a full 8 hours of sleep this summer? The sleep friendly, airy and quiet hours are between 1am and 6am, sometimes interrupted by a mini storm, a drunk skate boarder or a motorcycle, this results in a fragmented 5-6 hours of sleep. I can’t understand how I’m still functioning. 

Anyway, we had a difficult talk with some coworkers the other day which revealed information that  further motivates more of us to find a new work arrangement and move on. 

Then I had quite an intense argument with my mother, struggled with bureaucracy a little and now I’m going to the movies with sister before a relaxing weekend of cleaning, working and buying a Bangladesh made swimsuit. 

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54 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I don’t remember saying anything about the green house effect or CO2 emission or global warming, other than mentioning that Canada and the US aren’t in the Kyoto protocol (which is factually correct) so I’m not sure how I can be factually or statistically wrong about that, but thank you for educating us with this data. 

And I also didn’t say anything about how industrialized the West is, I reflected on how the West is the chronically consumerist part of the world compared to BRIC or third world countries which -in my opinion - correlates with the amount of garbage we produce - I may be statistically wrong about this, of course. 

As someone who enjoys shopping, I do know the stuff I buy in Zara comes from Bangladesh (this is an illustrative example, H&M might come from Bangladesh and Zara from somewhere else, this is hardly the point) but this brings up the philosophical question of who is responsible for the harmful effect of textile/plastic/iPhone production in China/India/Bangladesh, the country itself or the corporation that outsourced it’s production to said country because it was cost efficient (due to cheap labor, low production costs, better tax deals, and maybe little to no environmental regulations? - I could google some specifics but I don’t feel invested enough in the topic so I will risk being factually wrong here). Responsibility should at least be shared. 

I will not go into the government topic, because I see liberty and government vastly differently than you. 

The greatest supporters of socialsm being the people who live in the lap of privilege of capitalism - I would like to see some statistics about this too, because to me it sounds like quite a strong generalization. Then again, the socialism my country experienced was far from the one say Cambodia experienced. There’s even a saying (which I can’t translate properly) that says we were the playground or summer camp or whatever of the socialist block, meaning that we had it relatively great compared to other nations devoured by the CCCP. This may cause some level of bias on how our citizens saw/see socialism. 

That's right , you didn't , I did because I thought it would shed more light on the environmental issues and show that the claims of western society being the sole proprietor of doom and gloom are simply not accurate .

I don’t think the third world is responsible for the state of the environment, especially if we look at the garbage situation." 

you made the claim that the third world has no responsibility for the state of the environment and cited garbage production rate as your argument , I showcased how this is not true and that the third world (if you consider China and India to be so ) bear considerable responsibility to the state of the environment and cited their co2 emissions. Now if you wanna make the argument that co2 emissions are not polluting the environment or are unimportant then go ahead . 

 

no , again I mentioned that but I wasn't seriously supplementing any argument really, just some info about the industrial state of the world . It also depends on how you classify trash , is it just plastic ? But yes it is true that western countries are well represented in the trash producing business and its' undisputed champion is indeed non other than the US . We have a terrible culture when it comes to recycling . However China and India are also well represented especially China with 210 million tons . One of the usually proposed solutions to our shit recycling culture problem is adopting similar forms of waste management regulations like the ones implemented in Japan and Germany (also big waste producers mind you , just better at recycling it ) which basically go about  making recycling the responsibility of the manufacturer or the consumer where for example in Germany the manufacturer of a soda can has the responsibility to recycle the transportation packaging, the boxes it was in and in some cases the can itself for example , a program called the green dot that is meant to help consumers choose environmentally friendly products is also interesting where they have an actual green dot on the product that means the manufacturer has a high standard of environmentally friendly production . Japan on the other hand has laws that require it's citizens to pay recycling fees for their appliances . I find the German system somewhat more palatable and worth considering, however one should always keep in mind that both these models do and have in fact had some negative impacts on the economy but some benefits are worth it in the long run depending on the circumstances.

 

Well if you're gonna argue for western enterprises pulling out of India, china and Taiwan then I'm pretty sure a lot of workers in those factories would disagree seeing as you'd be condemning them to a return to a primarily agricultural economy where many of them starved . Now moving away from the cheek in tongue hyperbole , I agree that there should be shared responsibility but I do not see the sharing . I see a bunch of people outraged at the and telling me I shouldn't be allowed to use a straw . I don't see them protesting or condemning the Chinese practices . Just yelling about how Walmart is evil . I am very critical of US waste and do believe we should try to embrace a better recycling culture but authoritarian commands from the executive branch are something that I will never take easily.

 

Cool . You do you , I'll do me . Small limited government is the one for me :)

 

latest polls put millennial support for socialism in the US at around 44% give or take depending on age breakdown within the millennial category and who's conducting it . I'd say American millennials have grown up in capitalist privilege but you're free to dispute that if you like . 

funnily enough ,even though i am a staunch opponent of socialism I am a great fan of socialist era and socialist produced art , music ,literature, movies and the like . I also find Slavic culture and heritage fascinating and lovely .

 

hope you and your sister enjoy the movie :)

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Rhae I feel your pain with the air con :grouphug:.

Does anyone ever get annoyed if they’ve done something for years, could pretty much do it with their eyes closed and yet they make a silly newbie error and fuck up?, well that’s what I did this evening while restringing one of my guitars, I didn’t notice one of the strings wasn’t sitting in the saddle properly and when I went to tune it after winding it round/tightening it up I snapped it :angry:.

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4 hours ago, Vin said:

[...]

Your entire argument is predicated on "you're a selfish evil person if you don't do what I think is best and I'm gonna get the government to force you " . Sorry , that's not gonna fly .

As for your point on China, you're simply being dishonest in your argument . You're talking about China like it's some obscure African nation that has no access to running water or electricity. They're the largest industry ! No one is asking Zimbabwe (whenever they stop killing each other and declare a winner for the election) to implement expensive high tech solutions that might cripple their economy . China is the largest industry and India has a fucking space program , a damn good one too! So stop pretending they're living in hovels and asking me to feel shame for something I didn't do .

Hope you don't take this personally . It's just that I don't see your argument holding water other than being an emotional club to try to beat me over the head with it .

First of all, sorry if you felt like this was directed at you personally. Not intended, that's just how I am :P
 

I wasn't talking about China or any other country specifically, I was talking about developing countries in general. But even so, there are millions and millions of people living below the poverty line in India or China too, and guess what, the fucking space program isn't doing them any good, doesn't even matter if it's a damn good one, if they don't have access to clean water, housing and basic education and their livelihoods are threatened. These situations lead to unsustainable practices and environmental degradation even though those people often depend on a "healthy" environment. If you want to achieve some form of sustainability it's an imperative to address these issues because social development and environmental protection go hand in hand, hence the need for differentiated responsibilities of western and developing states.
And I'm certainly not asking you to feel shame, I don't believe you're personally responsible for any of that. ;) 

3 hours ago, Vin said:
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

 

Why doesn't anyone think of freedom and the philosophical implications of principle ? What you're advocating is that the government gets to throw me in jail or fine me if I want to use a straw . That's tyranny . The government is not my daddy .Why are so okay with giving more power to the government ?  If you think straws suck (pun intended) then by all means don't buy them and if you're given one with a beverage,feel free to give it back . Ask your friends and relatives not to use them , start an organization that goes door to door and informs the people of the evils of straws , don't buy from cafes that use them , implement market pressure , if no one uses them they'll stop making them . This is all fine . getting the government to force people to adhere to your sensibilities and giving them more power ? Big nope .

You do realise that it's not straws themselves being banned? It's about plastic straws, you're completely free to use straws made out of glass, metal,  paper or whatever the hell you can make straws of. And it's not about sanctioning the use of plastic straws either, they're just not supposed to be sold anymore. I'll agree that it's tyrannical on the day the first country introduces a new rule into its criminal code that says something along the lines of "§ 342: (1) a person caught using a plastic straw will be sentenced to a fine of 500€ or 5 days in jail; (2) the attempt is punishable as well", but I really don't see that happening, so head on to IKEA to buy a lifetime supply of plastic straws before they're out of stock and you should be all fine.

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Today they come for our drinking straws. Tomorrow they come for our internal combustion engines. Next week, our very lives!

 

14 minutes ago, Nazca Barsavi said:

but I really don't see that happening, so head on to IKEA to buy a lifetime supply of plastic straws before they're out of stock and you should be all fine.

I mean, plastic straws take like 500 years to decompose, so even if you factor in losing some straws here and there, a couple of dozen should last you a lifetime.

That or there can be a religious exemption to the straw ban for those who worship plastic drinking straws. In the Year of Our Straw, 2018.

I'd get further involved in the argument, but that would be engaging with a straw man. [bad-dum-tiss]

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57 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

Rhae I feel your pain with the air con :grouphug:.

Does anyone ever get annoyed if they’ve done something for years, could pretty much do it with their eyes closed and yet they make a silly newbie error and fuck up?, well that’s what I did this evening while restringing one of my guitars, I didn’t notice one of the strings wasn’t sitting in the saddle properly and when I went to tune it after winding it round/tightening it up I snapped it :angry:.

Thanks, the situation is not fun. But I’ll try to get it fixed before the summer is over so I can spare myself the September heat and hopefully get it ready for next year. Uhhhh that’s really annoying... :/ I’m sorry this happened, can you get the string replaced, or how does this work?  I never played a guitar. 

 

@Vin while I very much appreciate your dedication and persistence to this argument, I’m way too tired and not nearly adequately invested to go on discussing law, economy and ideology. (And I have developed the principle to quit any discussion at the point where my sentences are quoted for analysis and deconstruction over the years on the internet). To quote you back: you do you. And I agree to disagree. The movie was very good, thank you, it’s called The Place, I highly recommend it, intriguing story, great acting and nice food for thought. 

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6 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

I mean, plastic straws take like 500 years to decompose, so even if you factor in losing some straws here and there, a couple of dozen should last you a lifetime.

You can even hand down the rest of your supply to your children and grandchildren. Within a few generations plastic straws will be a rare and terribly expensive antiquity, I'm sure there's a fortune to be made (unless our supreme leaders have criminalised possession of and dealing with plastic straws by then.)

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2 minutes ago, Nazca Barsavi said:

You can even hand down the rest of your supply to your children and grandchildren. Within a few generations plastic straws will be a rare and terribly expensive antiquity, I'm sure there's a fortune to be made (unless our supreme leaders have criminalised possession of and dealing with plastic straws by then.)

That really would be the last straw... literally.

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23 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

Seriously, not getting a straw inconveniences exactly nobody. Everybody can drink out of a glass or bottle.

That's not actually true, as I've recently discovered. People with a wide range of disabilities (not all of them visible to a casual observer) depend on them, and the alternatives to disposable plastic aren't viable for a lot of those people (eg the more rigid types like metal pose an injury risk to people with impaired coordination). By all means avoid using straws if you don't need them, but keep them available in public eateries and don't judge people who do use them - they might have good reason even if it's not obvious to you.

23 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

I want to visit Edinbourgh one day.

I visited it for a few hours last millenium; seemed like a nice place, but I was just a kid and not there for long. The festival sounds like it would be great fun.

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30 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Thanks, the situation is not fun. But I’ll try to get it fixed before the summer is over so I can spare myself the September heat and hopefully get it ready for next year. Uhhhh that’s really annoying... :/ I’m sorry this happened, can you get the string replaced, or how does this work?  I never played a guitar. 

@Vin

Yeah, I replace them myself, it's just annoying because they come in packs of 6(they have 6 strings and they're all slightly different thickness depending on which string it is) so now I have to break open another pack to just replace one, no big deal, just I should know better after doing it for so long :P.

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44 minutes ago, Nazca Barsavi said:

First of all, sorry if you felt like this was directed at you personally. Not intended, that's just how I am :P
 

I wasn't talking about China or any other country specifically, I was talking about developing countries in general. But even so, there are millions and millions of people living below the poverty line in India or China too, and guess what, the fucking space program isn't doing them any good, doesn't even matter if it's a damn good one, if they don't have access to clean water, housing and basic education and their livelihoods are threatened. These situations lead to unsustainable practices and environmental degradation even though those people often depend on a "healthy" environment. If you want to achieve some form of sustainability it's an imperative to address these issues because social development and environmental protection go hand in hand, hence the need for differentiated responsibilities of western and developing states.
And I'm certainly not asking you to feel shame, I don't believe you're personally responsible for any of that. 

You do realise that it's not straws themselves being banned? It's about plastic straws, you're completely free to use straws made out of glass, metal,  paper or whatever the hell you can make straws of. And it's not about sanctioning the use of plastic straws either, they're just not supposed to be sold anymore. I'll agree that it's tyrannical on the day the first country introduces a new rule into its criminal code that says something along the lines of "§ 342: (1) a person caught using a plastic straw will be sentenced to a fine of 500€ or 5 days in jail; (2) the attempt is punishable as well", but I really don't see that happening, so head on to IKEA to buy a lifetime supply of plastic straws before they're out of stock and you should be all fine.

No problem, it's just a discussion we can disagree and that's fine . Again I do not believe the political and the personal are one in the same .

For arguments sake , why are the livelihoods of impoverished Indian and Chinese factory workers more important than the livelihoods of impoverished American factory workers ? Or coal miners for that matter ? (China is still heavily reliant on coal by modern standards ) the coal industry in the US has shrunk considerably over the years (rightly so) while the Chinese one hasn't . Now keep in mind that I'm not advocating for coal consumption or anything of the like , coal should be reduced and is indeed a terrible source for energy . I'm merely asking you to be fair in your application of principles .I accept that it's unrealistic to expect any industrial nation to shrink down its' economy for any reason let alone when it's basically picking up the tab for someone else ,so I'm gonna take any western exclusive reform with a grain of salt .

 

Are you really gonna base your argument on a technicality ? Alright , no need to dig up similar legal technicalities , I'll concede you the technicality. 

I still think that's non of the government's business but we have different opinions on what's tyrannical , I guess and that's cool . 

As for legal terms ,the way the law currently stands in San Francisco for example is that if a waiter or waitress at a restaurant gave me a straw with my beverage that server is liable to 1000 $ fine or 6 months in jail . I am uncertain about what the ramifications for the person who uses the straw but suffice to say that first part is more than enough for me .

31 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

Today they come for our drinking straws. Tomorrow they come for our internal combustion engines. Next week, our very lives!

 

I mean, plastic straws take like 500 years to decompose, so even if you factor in losing some straws here and there, a couple of dozen should last you a lifetime.

That or there can be a religious exemption to the straw ban for those who worship plastic drinking straws. In the Year of Our Straw, 2018.

I'd get further involved in the argument, but that would be engaging with a straw man. [bad-dum-tiss]

Because history clearly shows that governments have never turned tyrannical ,right? Why worry about anything at all ? Just submit to your new lord and Savior and let daddy and his executive branch deal with everything .*wink* *wink*

On a side note, religious exemptions are mostly silly .

Not much of an argument really , just an off shoot of the basic small government vs big government debate which is a never ending classic because both sides firmly believe they're correct . 

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5 hours ago, Vin said:

If you personally feel like limiting your shopping bags and straws and what not to help the environment then by all means go ahead , that's your prerogative and you're certainly free to pursue it .(I personally use reusable bags for my shopping) Try to raise awareness if you like or even incentivize it but when you try to LEGISLATE it and FORCE people to follow your inclinations then you're crossing into extremely dangerous territory of giving the government more power ,now I'm certainly not arguing the anarchist perspective of government should intervene in nothing, that's ludicrous but I also will not willingly hand more power to the government ,who's already overbearing and incompetent , to control my life over a measly non consequential 0.6 % notice how I said inconsequential not "small" ? There's a huge difference(to use your analogy ,the house is on fire and you wanna piss on it to put out the fire.) . Now if we're talking about the government investigating something actually consequential like industrial fishing nets and for example setting a standard of using biodegradable nets (they already exist,they're made from coconut of all things ) then I can definitely be persuaded to be on board with that because it will have an actual impact and implementation plan that involves minimal tyranny .

Don't want to really engage in detail, but ... did you just call laws regulating the use of plastic straws tyranny? :blink:

What about these pesky rules and regulations saying you should not drive in the opposite direction to everybody else on a highway, is that tyranny too?

5 hours ago, Vin said:

Sorry to hear you didn't get the jobs . 10 years is a long time , are you trying to teach ? 

No, I am trying to research. I mean, teaching goes with that, I want to teach uni students. Which is not what people usually mean when talking of teaching.

5 hours ago, Vin said:

And those different opinions are fine , we would meet at the voting ballot , cast different votes and then go have a drink together and have a good time talking about a good book . :) merging the political with the personal and saying they're the same thing is stupid imo . I can disagree with someone and still think they're a good and decent person.

I am going to say we are not going to do that, because we live in different countries and are never going to go to the same election.

4 hours ago, Vin said:

 

     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

About people remembering socialism favorably , I think you have to look individual experiences

I am pretty sure this holds true to any possible form of government and society in the history. I don't think this is especially true for socialism.

4 hours ago, Vin said:

because for a lot of people if you kept your head down and didn't say anything the Kremlin didn't like (at least not where the political commissar or the kgb can hear you ...)

The country that my country was once a part of did not have anything to do with the Kremlin since like the 50s. Socialism =/= Sovjet Union.

4 hours ago, Vin said:

you got a job and bread on the table and for a lot of people ,especially after the war that was a good life but for people who were political decedents

I am pretty sure the word is "dissidents". ;)

3 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Then again, the socialism my country experienced was far from the one say Cambodia experienced. There’s even a saying (which I can’t translate properly) that says we were the playground or summer camp or whatever of the socialist block, meaning that we had it relatively great compared to other nations devoured by the CCCP. This may cause some level of bias on how our citizens saw/see socialism. 

Here too. My parents' generation did not have problems, for example, travelling anywhere. It was far from the early Sovjet era in SSSR.

28 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

The movie was very good, thank you, it’s called The Place, I highly recommend it, intriguing story, great acting and nice food for thought. 

What is it about?
When I get home, I am going to go watch Mamma Mia. There, I said it, I have weird taste in movies.

Sorry about your air con. Here is it also too hot to sleep. And the bed is not comfortable and I don't feel much at home. I don't sleep well here.

6 minutes ago, felice said:

That's not actually true, as I've recently discovered. People with a wide range of disabilities (not all of them visible to a casual observer) depend on them, and the alternatives to disposable plastic aren't viable for a lot of those people (eg the more rigid types like metal pose an injury risk to people with impaired coordination). By all means avoid using straws if you don't need them, but keep them available in public eateries and don't judge people who do use them - they might have good reason even if it's not obvious to you.

You are right, good point. I should have said the vast majority of people. And for these people with disabilities, I am sure a solution can be reached.

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