U.S. Politics-Hope Floats 2: We All Float Down Here

[TheKitttenGuard]

7 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

Earlier this week I heard news reports that several hundreds of children were re-united with their parents after being separated from them by the border guards, but now CNN is reported that the actual number is 6 children.

Yup. A total of 6 children, out of 2,300 or so.

This is administration is full of liars. When they are not lying they are gaslighting. 

[Fragile Bird]

3 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

This is administration is full of liars. When they are not lying they are gaslighting. 

The several hundred were apparently only children who had been taken from their parents in the last week or so, in the custody of ICE. But they ship the kids off within a few days. They never actually made plans on how to eventually return children to their parents, and now they don't know how to, apparently.

[Martell Spy]

Active shooter at a newspaper in Maryland. Don't worry, the new normal.

Multiple fatalities.

Shooting reported at Capital Gazette newspaper in Annapolis

https://www.google.com/amp/www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-gazette-shooting-20180628-story,amp.html

[TheKitttenGuard]

16 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

The several hundred were apparently only children who had been taken from their parents in the last week or so, in the custody of ICE. But they ship the kids off within a few days. They never actually made plans on how to eventually return children to their parents, and now they don't know how to, apparently.

While this gross human rights violation is going on, the State Department stated how wrong it is to separate families:

Quote

The State Department on Thursday issued a warning against separating families in a new human trafficking report amid the controversy surrounding migrant families at the U.S. southern border. 

"Children in institutional care, including government-run facilities, can be easy targets for traffickers. Even at their best, residential institutions are unable to meet a child’s need for emotional support that is typically received from family members or consistent caretakers with whom the child can develop an attachment," the department said in the report. 

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/394677-state-department-issues-warning-against-separating-families

There is something really sick going on.

[DMC]

Very nice article from Milbank putting Ocasio-Cortez' victory into context and how she just did the party a big favor:

Quote

Analyses indicate that first-time Democratic candidates this year tend to be more liberal than incumbents, but the entire party has moved to the left. There is no “civil war” within the party because no one is pushing back against the progressives’ rise — a rise that comes in reaction to Trump but also reflects the growing prominence of women, minorities and young voters in the electorate.

The top three House Democratic leaders, California’s Pelosi, 78, Maryland’s Steny H. Hoyer, 79, and South Carolina’s James E. Clyburn, 77, show no interest in stepping down. But after November’s elections, they should set a timetable — a short one. Whoever wins the race to replace Crowley in the No. 4 spot will immediately become the party’s leader-in-waiting.

Among the contenders: Joe Kennedy (Mass.), 37, Bobby’s grandson and a former prosecutor, has charisma and a gift for oratory; Ben Ray Luján (N.M.), 46, is a well-liked Latino and, as head of the DCCC, will be riding a wave of support if Democrats win the House; Cheri Bustos (Ill.), 56, would be a popular choice though she comes from a vulnerable district; and Adam B. Schiff (Calif.), 58, though another white guy, has media savvy and has deftly led House Democrats in the Russia inquiry and in intelligence matters. There are plenty of others — Seth Moulton (Mass.), 39; Eric Swalwell (Calif.), 37; Hakeem Jeffries (N.Y.), 47; Cedric L. Richmond (La.), 44; Katherine M. Clark (Mass.), 54; and Linda T. Sánchez (Calif.), 49 — who could be dark horses.

 

[Kalbear]

10 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

 

It takes a rather shallow view of American politics (and understanding of respective capacities regarding institutional checks) to think regaining control of either chamber in Congress is utterly pointless while the retirement of one justice means things are already lost.  I mean, maybe it'd be more of an impact if Kennedy's "swing" status was legitimate, but both quantitatively and qualitatively, it hasn't been worth much at all for awhile.  As already mentioned, in all 5-4 cases split along ideological lines this term, Kennedy voted with the conservatives - and this extends to the previous term:

 

Quantitatively you're right. Qualitatively he ruled regularly on major issues dear to liberals, such as gay marriage, and wrote the opinion piece on that. I think that's more of what is being feared. 

 

[Jace, Extat]

10 hours ago, DMBouazizi said:

 

 

It takes a rather shallow view of American politics (and understanding of respective capacities regarding institutional checks) to think regaining control of either chamber in Congress is utterly pointless while the retirement of one justice means things are already lost.  I mean, maybe it'd be more of an impact if Kennedy's "swing" status was legitimate, but both quantitatively and qualitatively, it hasn't been worth much at all for awhile.  As already mentioned, in all 5-4 cases split along ideological lines this term, Kennedy voted with the conservatives - and this extends to the previous term:

BTW, those two recent cases he did dissent in - Dimaya and Artis - were decided in favor of the liberal block in which another conservative justice - Gorsuch and Roberts, respectively - joined the liberals for the majority, instead of Kennedy.

Look, it's been a pretty damn depressing few days.  If you wanna get outraged or light your hair on fire or say fuck this country or even if you want to give up, no one can blame you.  But don't tell people to "let it go," or the "fight is over," and frame it in the guise that you've figured something out that others haven't.  Because if you didn't realize SCOTUS was poised to uphold (this version of) Trump's travel ban or continue their assault on labor rights (both with Kennedy's support) or it was incredibly likely that Trump was going to get to replace Kennedy's seat, then it's you that hasn't been paying attention.  And simply decrying "the fight is over, they've already won" belies a certain ignorance about the history of American politics and particularly the frequent and volatile electoral swings we've seen over the past quarter century.  The fight is never over.

Bruh. I've been preaching doom and gloom for months now. Kennedy is nothing, not even a blip on my Fascism radar.

[DMC]

Just now, كالدب said:

Qualitatively he ruled regularly on major issues dear to liberals, such as gay marriage, and wrote the opinion piece on that.

Yes, like I said from the get-go, Obergefell is definitely a caveat (as is Windsor, I suppose, but that's like counting Heller and McDonald).  Before that, the last notable case in which NPR cited in that article was a mid 2000s case that ruled juvenile executions unconstitutional.  Which, is great of course (as well as appalling it was only a 5-4 vote), but not something I'm too worried about now.  As someone said, one of the larger concerns is voting rights.  I tend to agree but he was right there helping to cut apart the VRA in Shelby v. Holder with the other conservatives.  I definitely think the greatest blow here is to LGBT+ rights.  Roe, too, of course, but I'm skeptical they're not just gonna make it toothless - which Kennedy hasn't been much help in curbing for a while now.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

Bruh. I've been preaching doom and gloom for months now. Kennedy is nothing, not even a blip on my Fascism radar.

K.  That doesn't really address the larger point.

[Kalbear]

9 hours ago, La Albearceleste said:

The problem with this 'all is lost' ranting is that it does nothing but harm. Even if you think motivating others to vote is pointless, there are people out there dealing with feelings of anger and despair and anxiety, and telling them nothing can be done is actively harmful to their mental health, even if it is true. 

I don't think nothing can be done, but I'm not going to blow smoke up people's asses and tell them that just voting is going to solve things or that things aren't quite so bad or that bullshit about the US 'surviving' after this.

9 hours ago, La Albearceleste said:

What a terrible analogy.

Expats have a stake in what happens in their home country. They have relatives and friends who are affected, and they will be affected by some of the decisions their government takes, even ignoring their emotional investment (and why would we ignore that?)

They aren't chickens in this analogy. At best, they're free range pigs. 

I don't want to ignore it, but them telling the people who are living here that they are feeling things wrongly and doing the wrong thing is bullshit. They don't have as much skin in the game as the people living here do.

The analogy is based on coding groups which have daily quick talks - the pigs (who are the ones working on the code) get to talk, and if you're there to find out what's going on you don't get to talk. Similar principle applies. Yes, everyone does get affected by what happens in the US, but the people who are actually here? They are going to feel the ramifications a bit more for the most part. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

How does this do 'liberals in'?

Campaigning on hyperbolic liberal rage is ineffective to say the least. Being over the top causes people to ignore you.

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Kennedy retiring matters.  Whether he was a conservative or not, he's going to be replaced with a conservative Trump appointee.  And Breysr and Ginsberg could easily be replaced as well this term.  Maybe that doesn't matter to you, there are people who aren't you who stand to lose actual standing and basic rights in this world because of this.  This may not have been the straw that broke the camel's back moment, but if his replacement is approved before the midterms this is a pretty serious blow to people of color, the LGBTQ community, women, etc.  

When did I say it didn’t matter? I just said some people are overacting. As for the rest of your comment, I literally said all of that in multiple posts. I said that the real problem is if the court shifts to 6-3 or worse, and that the groups you listed are going to be negatively impacted by Kennedy’s retirement.

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And now you're doubling down on telling everyone to chill out, don't worry, these groups have already been treated shittily in the last, no big deal.  

I never said that. I said stop saying this is the end of the Republic. It’s silly and counterproductive.

Quote

And then followed up with the patronizing suggestion to take action and arrogant assumption that because people are expressing outrage over something that could likely cause suffering for many people, they couldn't possibly have actually tried to do anything about it.  

Take a look in the mirror and consider the fact that maybe you said something flippant and insensitive.  Or don't.  I don't give a fuck if you're calm (my pulse is a stone cold 65 bpm) and other people are expressing emotion.  It doesn't mean they don't have a grievance or cause for concern and it certainly doesn't mean that they aren't doing something about it or haven't been engaged with these problems outside of this board.  You know nothing.

You know why I was patronizing? Because people tend to talk politics without doing anything about it. I brought this up during the 2016 campaign and it seemed like most people weren’t being very active. I brought up what people can do in response to Kennedy’s retirement, and it feels like I got a collective shrug. You can do two thigs, call their offices, and I even posted the main numbers, and/or protest. There is going to be a nationwide protest this Saturday. That’s a good starting point.

Was the comment flippant? That’s debatable, but what I said is what damn near every moderate to liberal analyst would say. If you were to ask them what are the immediate ramifications of Kennedy’s retirement, they’d say what you and I have said, that’s it’s going to be bad for women and minorities. If you then followed up and asked is this the end of the Republic, they’d either laugh at you or look at you like you’re crazy.

[Jace, Extat]

12 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

K.  That doesn't really address the larger point.

K You are giving too much weight to current events. My commentary has not been that Rs have won and power can never go back to D's.

It's that the system is irreparably damaged, has been for decades now. Even if a supermajority dem wave lined up in 2020 what happens after that? R's will retake power and tear it all down again while continuously dragging us all right. 

The real knife in the heart of American Democracy is that leftists refuse to meet the right's increasingly heinous tactics. Liberals are still expected to be morally unmonsterous while fighting an enemy that demands extreme responses.

[JGP]

59 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Active shooter at a newspaper in Maryland. Don't worry, the new normal.

Multiple fatalities.

Shooting reported at Capital Gazette newspaper in Annapolis

https://www.google.com/amp/www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-gazette-shooting-20180628-story,amp.html

Brutal. I wonder, though...

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

K You are giving too much weight to current events. My commentary has not been that Rs have won and power can never go back to D's.

It's that the system is irreparably damaged, has been for decades now. Even if a supermajority dem wave lined up in 2020 what happens after that? R's will retake power and tear it all down again while continuously dragging us all right. 

The real knife in the heart of American Democracy is that leftists refuse to meet the right's increasingly heinous tactics. Liberals are still expected to be morally unmonsterous while fighting an enemy that demands extreme responses.

Well this is a much more prolonged and much less stark portrait than your ranting depicted over the first page of this thread.  This is just describing asymmetrical polarization which has clearly been a problem for a while now.  It's also something that we have endured and came back from in our history - just as it certainly has also been the death knell for a number of states.

Like I said, if you want to pillory the state of the polity and how fucked this country is no one can blame you.  But it becomes a problem when you start telling people to let it go and the fight's over - especially while acting like you've figured something out these others don't realize.  You haven't.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, DMBouazizi said:

Well this is a much more prolonged and much less stark portrait than your ranting depicted over the first page of this thread.  This is just describing asymmetrical polarization which has clearly been a problem for a while now.  It's also something that we have endured and came back from in our history - just as it certainly has also been the death knell for a number of states.

Like I said, if you want to pillory the state of the polity and how fucked this country is no one can blame you.  But it becomes a problem when you start telling people to let it go and the fight's over - especially while acting like you've figured something out these others don't realize.  You haven't.

I take issue with your assertion that I am 'acting like I figured out something others don't realize'. If I gave that impression by referencing I finished mine own assessment before abandoning all hope, eeeh I feel like you're putting a little bit of unfair weight on my statement. I hope I haven't been acting like I know the super sekret, that would be absurd. From my perspective I have been acting like I measured the situation from my vantage point and came to the conclusion a lot of others have reached, at which point I transitioned from champion of Democracy to hospice worker for dying liberal idealism.

Whatever else you may think about me, I really do want to help people like Tywin (and maybe even yourself) let go of false hope. We're pals. I want you to live your life free of toxic influences that only serve to cause greater anxiety.

Or... I may be a viscous empty monster that is lashing out its death throes. I'd call it a 50/50, but that would be far to generous.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

If I gave that impression by referencing I finished mine own assessment before abandoning all hope, eeeh I feel like you're putting a little bit of unfair weight on my statement. I hope I haven't been acting like I know the super sekret, that would be absurd.

I don't even have to go back to the first page.  You continue to be condescending two sentences later:

2 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

Whatever else you may think about me, I really do want to help people like Tywin (and maybe even yourself) let go of false hope.

So my hope is false?  You don't know that.  -And you're gonna help me?  That's pretty damn patronizing considering I make a living studying American politics.  I guess maybe you don't get how offensive stuff like this comes off - and sorry if I'm being aggressive in tone - but it really does.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, DMBouazizi said:

I don't even have to go back to the first page.  You continue to be condescending two sentences later:

So my hope is false?  You don't know that.  -And you're gonna help me?  That's pretty damn patronizing considering I make a living studying American politics.  I guess maybe you don't get how offensive stuff like this comes off - and sorry if I'm being aggressive in tone - but it really does.

You're getting closer. Stop apologizing.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

You're getting closer. Stop apologizing.

You're so confusing sometimes.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, DMBouazizi said:

You're so confusing sometimes.

wait til football season starts and you're both drunk

[KingintheNorth4]

31 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Brutal. I wonder, though...

Don't forget Trump calling the media the enemy of the American people.