Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[St Daga]

48 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s the rub isn’t it.  After Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown of winter roses, he leaves with his pregnant wife and returns to Dragonstone where he later celebrates the birth of his son, the Prince that was Promised.  It seems unlikely that there would have been any communication between Lyanna and him until the time that Rhaegar allegedly descended on her in the Riverlands.  So we’re not exactly talking any type of courtship.  Of course we can’t assume that it wasn’t a flat out abduction, but this scenario does make me wonder why Eddard seems to lay at least part of the blame of Lyanna’s death, on her wildness or  “wolf-blood”.  

That is why I do think that Lyanna did something somewhat impulsive. Either she was not where she was supposed to be when she fell into Rhaegar's hands, or it was she who "took" him. It's odd how I can't let that idea go! Really, Arya even "took" or strongly coerced Gendry and Hot Pie out of Harrenhal by being crafty, and was inspired by her father's words to not forget who she was. "You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you." The wolf blood is something that Ned recognized in both Lyanna and Arya.

If Lyanna was involved in a large plot of Rhaegar's, it lesson's my ideas of the "wolf blood" that led to her fall. That might be my interpretation that is incorrect here, because I do think of the wolf blood as being impulsive, as well as bold, unafraid.

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now it is also interesting that there was one other person who starts a relationship with the Starks around this time, Howland Reed.  And while I don’t believe that Howland Reed would have been one of Rhaegar’s conspirators, the fact that Howland had just spent two years with the Green Men, makes me believe that he might have been very influential in shaping Lyanna’s belief about the Song of Ice and Fire, a term that is mentioned only by Rhaegar, but perhaps alluded to by the Reed children in their oath to the Starks.

Howland is interesting, and he does have the potential for great knowledge if he did truly spend time at the Isle of Faces. And his children do make an oath to Bran that involves ice and fire. Interestingly, Bran is a Prince of Winterfell, and Summer thinks of himself as the Prince of the Wolfs Wood. Summer thinks of Bran as "the wolf prince" and after that wolf dream, Bran thinks of himself as " the prince of the woods."

Quote

Prince. The man-sound came into his head suddenly, yet he could feel the rightness of it. Prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. He was strong and swift and fierce, and all that lived in the good green world went in fear of him. ASOS-Bran I

This is Bran as Summer, but the Prince theme runs strong in Bran's story. Stronger than any of the other Stark's, I think. OFten, when Bran is in Summer, they jointly seem to refer to each other as "the prince". And this story seems to be searching for The Prince that was Promised.

"I don't have to tell you my dreams. I'm the prince. I'm the Stark in Winterfell." Bran thinks this is some anger, but that he calls himself "the prince" stands out to me. Not a prince, but THE prince! It is Bran who is pledged an oath involving ice and fire from the children of a man who probably has some type of sight or vision. Is Bran the Prince of Ice and Fire? Is it his Song this story is about?

It seems like Rhaegar (and Aemon) has been wrong several times, so perhaps he is also wrong about baby Aegon being TPTWP and his being "the song of ice and fire". Perhaps that is Bran.

Bran has Ned's ice and Catelyn's fire; Bran (and Summer) are jointly noted to be "the prince" on multiple occasions in the story. I think the story leads us to think it Jon who should fill this role (if RLJ) or Dany (if she has a Stark and Targaryen parent, which she could, if RLD), but I think it could be Bran. Bran who didn't die when he fell, or who died and was reborn as something different than he was before. 

The first mention of promise is in Bran I. Robb promises they will take raise the wolf pups themselves, and Ned then promises that they must raise the wolf pup's correctly. Those Bran doesn't make either of those promises, he does say "me too". It's a sideways type of promise, but it is tied to the Starks. Promises seem to always come back to the Starks, so perhaps TPTWP does too!

I am sure this concept has been discussed before, but I lean towards it more all of the time. And as you pointed out, it was Bran to whom the Reed's pledged their oath involving ice and fire, among other things.

Quote

 

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together. ASOS-Bran III

 

 

41 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

My personal tinfoil is that Lyanna did not die in Dorne, but in the north, so this information has always made me frown.  But it might very well be true and I need to get over it. It certainly doesn't mention the toj as that place of death, and Dorne certainly has many locations to chose from, and many of those could include a mountainous location.

Yea, this bit has always been a bugaboo for me too.  George makes a big deal that his books don’t have an omniscient narrator, but if so, who wrote the appendices if not the omniscient narrator?  

Of course the appendices also definitely state that Jon Snow is Ned’s bastard son, so there you go.

The appendices could merely reflect what the common belief is.  So perhaps it’s generally thought that Lyanna died in Dorne but that doesn’t necessarily mean she did.  But if not, why do people come to that conclusion.

And of course if Lyanna did die in the mountains of Dorne but not in the tower of joy, then I would think that Starfall would be the most likely choice.  And perhaps Eddard’s last conversation with Lyanna occurred after he travelled to Starfall after the tower of joy.

I agree with all that you said about the appendix's. I am not sold on Starfall as the place of Lyanna's death, but it could be. Starfall sounds a bit like Stark Fall, and although we are told it was Ashara who fell/jumped to her death, something about Starfall hints to me about the death of a Stark.

Another place on my radar is Wyl, the castle of House Wyl in the boneway. It lies near the mountains and the sea, and lies along a common way into Dorne. It's not terribly far from where the toj is noted on the map. Wyl hints to me of Wylla, and during the Hands Tourney, Ned makes note of several sigil's, and one of those is a blackadder.  I think those sigil's that Ned mentions will turn out to be important to the total story, it's like hint from GRRM early on. The black adder seems to be the sigil or House Wyl. House Wyl is also one of the few houses that are listed in the appendix as sworn to  Sunspear. GRRM had a plan for them early in the story if they made the appendix, I think. Of course, House Jordayne is there also, and that is a nod to Robert Jordan, and the blackadder sigil might simply be a nod to the Blackadder british series (which GRRM has admitted to) and nothing more.

House Wyl has a connection to Baelor the Blessed, as he walked the boneway to make peace with Dorne, and then walked a path full of vipers to rescue Aemon the Dragonknight, a cousin and kingsguard from a cage where he was imprisoned by House Wyl. Ned is associated with Baelor the Blessed as early as Eddard II.

Quote

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. AGOT-Eddard II

I use this line as a hint to Starkcest: version Ned and Lyanna. We know that at least one woman wanted Baelor in her bed, and that was his sister Daena, and she was willing to escape thrice and pursue him in hopes of getting in his bed. I think Baelor was tempted (otherwise why lock his sisters up to keep himself (and others) away from them?) and on that last escape of Daena's, I think he fell into her bed (or she into his) and I think they created a son, who is Daemon Waters (Blackfyre), but that is perhaps tinfoil  best left for another thread. I think there could be a parallel in the story between Lyanna and Daena the defiant. Both noted to be excellent horse riders, and while Daena is known as defiant and feisty, Lyanna is noted for her wolf blooded behaviors. (sorry, I just can't stop spinning my tinfoil)

However, I do think it's interesting that Ned and Baelor are associated several times in the text, even at the time and place of Ned's death, and Baelor walked a dangerous path in Dorne to save a family member. Did Ned do the same thing? Baelor was able to save the life of Aemon, but perhaps Ned was unable to save the life of Lyanna. That connection for me is House Wyl or Castle Wyl! 

[Lady Rhodes]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s the rub isn’t it.  After Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown of winter roses, he leaves with his pregnant wife and returns to Dragonstone where he later celebrates the birth of his son, the Prince that was Promised.  It seems unlikely that there would have been any communication between Lyanna and him until the time that Rhaegar allegedly descended on her in the Riverlands.  So we’re not exactly talking any type of courtship.  Of course we can’t assume that it wasn’t a flat out abduction, but this scenario does make me wonder why Eddard seems to lay at least part of the blame of Lyanna’s death, on her wildness or  “wolf-blood”.  

So let’s assume for an instant, that Rhaegar’s motivations during this time period is preparing for the Long Winter.  And we’re told that he has a deep inner circle.  Arthur Dayne is certainly in it, and considering he talks to Elia about the Song of Ice and Fire and the Prince that was Promised, Elia would have been a prime confidant as well.  And if Rhaegar thought the Long Night was descending, then my guess is that he called the Harrenhal tourney with an eye towards that as well.  So that might implicate the Whents as well (who are considered friends of the Night’s Watch), especially Oswell.  We also can’t discount Connington, Myles Mooton and Richard Longmouth.  

And if Elia was involved, that may then bring in Oberyn (the two were said to be inseparable) and Lewyn Martell, who was also said to be very close to Rhaegar.  And finally, we also have to suspect that Ashara was part of the Rhaegar’s inner circle considering she was both Arthur’s sister, and Elia’s lady in waiting.  

So if Rhaegar wanted to bring Lyanna into the fold (whether as a romantic interest or simply as a necessary coconspirator to their plans to fight the Long Night), then I think we would have to suspect the one member of Rhaegar’s inner circle that would have had access to Lyanna after Harrenhal.  And I think that would have been Ashara Dayne.  Rumors abound about her relationship with Ned, and Barristan believes that she started a relationship with a Stark at Harrenhal.  So it’s not a stretch that Ashara was Rhaegar’s go between to “woo” Lyanna.  And once again I’m not using the term woo in a romantic sense, but as a means to bring Lyanna into his inner circle in preparation for the Long Night.

Now it is also interesting that there was one other person who starts a relationship with the Starks around this time, Howland Reed.  And while I don’t believe that Howland Reed would have been one of Rhaegar’s conspirators, the fact that Howland had just spent two years with the Green Men, makes me believe that he might have been very influential in shaping Lyanna’s belief about the Song of Ice and Fire, a term that is mentioned only by Rhaegar, but perhaps alluded to by the Reed children in their oath to the Starks.

 

This I can get on board with. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Of course, House Jordayne is there also

The very location of House Jordayne should be a big red flag that the fever dream locating the tower of joy in Dorne isn't real. Robert Jordan wrote the Wheel of Time series - originally planned as a six-book series that turned into fourteen! Fans of the Wheel of Time series are familiar with the time portals and time travel as well as the dream walkers. To me this is a giant flashing arrow pointing at the fever dream with a direct access ramp to a wheel of time.

Shout out to Maester Flagons (wherever he is) for this: Lord Trebor Jordayne of House Jordayne of the Tor is a clear reference to Robert Jordan…Trebor is Robert in reverse. Hmm, what other Robert looms large in the books? Does not this big fat clue speak to anyone else but me?

Other details of House Jordayne from the wiki:

House Jordayne of the Tor is one of the principal noble houses of Dorne. The Tor is placed on the southern coast of the Sea of Dorne.

Their blazon is a golden quill on checkered dark and light green. Their words do not appear in the books, but in a semi-canon source they are stated to be "Let it be Written".

 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

And maybe we're just complicating things that are straightforward.

If GRRM only thought of half the symbols you brought up in the last two iterations of Heresy, we would still be waiting for Storm of Swords.

yuup

[Matthew.]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't have my copy to ADWD to hand but her POV chapter does indeed suggests that she has issues and is determined to show Benero and the rest that she is the one to bring forth Azor Ahai

Her POV has little to say about the priesthood as a culture or institution, and nothing at all to say about Benerro, even obliquely--eg, no references to a "high priest," or leadership, or whatever. At one point, I was also quite certain that I remembered her POV chapter that way, but I've both re-read it and double checked with the text search engine, and not found a supporting quote, though it's certainly possible I've missed something; nonetheless, I suspect that this falls under the "feels true" category, in that it can be reconciled with the general tone of her POV chapter.

 

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

If GRRM only thought of half the symbols you brought up in the last two iterations of Heresy, we would still be waiting for Storm of Swords.

I agree; some symbols are there, as easter eggs, homage, referential jokes, and sometimes foreshadowing, but not nearly to the extent that fan theory crafting would suggest, and rarely (if ever) as the foundation for understanding a plot idea or future revelation. At the risk of being overly critical of this method of interpreting the text, my thought is often "okay--but how does that work as a revelation on the page?" Five books of scattered symbols and obscure references might work as an essay length forum post, but whether or not it works as a storytelling idea that is intuitive and impactful to the reader is something else entirely.

[Brad Stark]

I never thought Treborn Jordayne of the Tor was anything more than the 3 stooges or Muppet references - either an attempt to be clever and add an Easter egg, or trouble coming up with names. 

[alienarea]

Going through the last posts I wonder whether Ned was that mad over the death of Elia and her children because

he had seen Lyanna die shortly before

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Going through the last posts I wonder whether Ned was that mad over the death of Elia and her children because

he had seen Lyanna die shortly before

Whether before or after I'm inclined to agree that Lord Eddard was upset over more than just Elia. My only reservation about an earlier death for Lyanna is that it would have been far harder for him to conceal the fact of Jon's death - or indeed Lyanna's pregnancy. Therefore although I've very sceptical of the deathbed scene taking place in that tower, I doubt if she was very far away - comparatively speaking

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

The little we know of Lyanna’s story has echoes of both Arya and Sansa’s current lives.   Here, Arya is indulging in a Sansa-esque fantasy of riding with an outlaw band and the secret bastard of a king.  She then dismisses it out of hand because  she’s too much of a child and not enough of a wolf.

Lyanna, however, had the wolf blood that got her killed.  I wonder if this hints that Lyanna made the Sansa fantasy choice.

This is possible, as Lyanna was missing for quite some time. But the Kingswood Brotherhood would have been ended before the rebellion, correct? As a matter of fact, it was ended before Jaime took his Kingsguard vows at Harrenhal. So, if she rode with an outlaw band, I think it would have to be a different band than the Kingswood Brotherhood if it happened after her reported abduction.

I do agree that Lyanna had the wolfsblood, and could have made this choice, I am just not sure that it fit's the timeline. Also, I find it interesting that Arya dreams up this fantasy, but thinks it's only something Sansa would dream up, when Arya has clearly dreamed it up herself. Those girls might be different but they certainly have some similarities. Being a dreamer is one of them. And I think they get it from Ned. 

Quote

 

They broke their fast on black bread and boiled goose eggs and fish fried up with onions and bacon, at a trestle table by the river's edge. The king's melancholy melted away with the morning mist, and before long Robert was eating an orange and waxing fond about a morning at the Eyrie when they had been boys. "… had given Jon a barrel of oranges, remember? Only the things had gone rotten, so I flung mine across the table and hit Dacks right in the nose. You remember, Redfort's pock-faced squire? He tossed one back at me, and before Jon could so much as fart, there were oranges flying across the High Hall in every direction." He laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering.

 

This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

 

That breakfast tasted better than anything Eddard Stark had eaten in a long time, and afterward his smiles came easier and more often, until it was time for the tournament to resume. AGOT-Eddard VII

 

Not only is Ned a dreamer, I actually think that Ned has a bit of the wolfs blood himself. Perhaps his years in the Eyrie helped him control it a bit, but he has it. He reacts with anger and red rage and fury on several occasions; Cat has seen this in Ned often enough to refer to it as "his fury was upon him".  It's not always ice in Eddard's veins.

And I am desperately waiting for Ulmer to tell us a bit more about the Kingswood Brotherhood, because I think there is a big reveal coming. If the story hints at Lyanna and the brotherhood, then she had to belong to it before Harrenhal, and that would put her in or near Kings Landing well before Harrenhal. This is a possibility I have toyed with, but there are no hints that Lyanna was at court before, or even after, Harrenhal. Of course, there is much missing from the pre-rebellion story that still could be filled in. Barbrey Dustin seems to recall Lyanna riding horses in the north, but I don't know if that is from personal experience or something Brandon told her or if it was common knowledge about Lyanna.

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm laughing to myself while reading your post, because you're actually providing more evidence to support my case!  Please know that this is all in good humor. I'm not trying to annoy anyone and no one has annoyed me. 

I am happy you think I am aiding your theory, and even though I don't see it, that doesn't mean it will not turn out to be the case. This is all meant to be for entertainment and discovery, and the discussion is meant to help clarify ideas, if possible. 

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You know what's really funny about telling Gendry to go back to the Stoney Sept and ring that girl's bells is how literal this applies to Robert!

Honestly, I am not sure that Gendry didn't go back and ring Bella's bells. If he did, he would be mirroring his father quite well. I am not convinced that Bella is Robert's, but she could be, and that would be one danger of spreading bastards willy nilly over the country side, that his bastards might be ringing each other's bells! 

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

If someone was worried about Robert's honor, it is Ned, not Lyanna. And we know that Ned can pretend honor to pacify his friend.

Quote

Sansa's eyes had grown wide as the plates. "A tourney," she breathed. She was seated between Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, as far from Arya as she could get without drawing a reproach from Father. "Will we be permitted to go, Father?"

"You know my feelings, Sansa. It seems I must arrange Robert's games and pretend to be honored for his sake. That does not mean I must subject my daughters to this folly." AGOT-Arya II

Ned carried his lies for 14 years. He told Robert that there was no honor in their conquest. No honor. None. If that is how Ned felt, then he pretended the conquest had honor. For Robert's sake. For fourteen years.

I suppose it comes down to interpretation, but I think this reference of Ned's about "that conquest" is only about the taking of the Red Keep and what happened to Elia and her children, not the entire rebellion.

Quote

 

"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."

 

"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest." AGOT-Eddard II

 

"You were not there" indicates a moment when Robert was not involved, such as the taking of the Red Keep. If it is in regard to the entire rebellion, it makes no sense, as Robert was definitely part of the rebellion and at the majority of the battles, possibly more battles than Ned's forces were in, since Robert fought in Gulltown, in three battles in one day at Summerhall, then moved on to Ashford before beating a retreat to Stoney Sept. As far as we know, The Battle of the Bells at Stoney Sept was Ned's first engagement of the war.

"There was no honor in that conquest" indicates, at least to me, that Ned is referring to one event in the rebellion, not the whole rebellion. Otherwise he would say "There was no honor in the conquest". Ned is correct that there was little or no honor in how the Lannister forces took the city and what they did afterwards.

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I actually meant that sarcastically, because Robert is such a dog for the ladies. 

A broken hymen does not equate a lost maidenhead. 

Gotcha on the sarcasm! But technically "maidenhead" could be a definition for a hymen, or for virginity. Depends on how your want to use it. This could also lead back to the maidenhead vs maidenhood comment by Catelyn. Is the wording interchangeable, or is it a clue? 

And I am not sure that Robert really cared if his women are virgins, or could even tell the difference, as in Cersei's case, and maybe others. It's hinted at in the text that Barra's mother was a maiden but we don't know if that was what Robert was shopping for, or even if she was. Ned assumes she probably was, but who knows.

 

[Brad Stark]

Ned was upset with killing children due to the death of Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, Jeffory McAllister and his own brother - heirs Aerys had killed for political reasons that Ned knew as children. 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

If Lyanna was involved in a large plot of Rhaegar's, it lesson's my ideas of the "wolf blood" that led to her fall. That might be my interpretation that is incorrect here, because I do think of the wolf blood as being impulsive, as well as bold, unafraid.

I’m not sure that it necessarily lessens your idea.  It kind of depends on the part Lyanna was to play.  Let’s assume for a moment that Lyanna’s role was to give birth to a child/savior/king/(sacrifice?).  We should not make the assumption that Lyanna’s child would only have significance if she gave birth to one of Rhaegar’s magical Targaryen children. (Which arguably could make her a rather passive participant)

What if the father to be wasn’t Rhaegar or anyone in his inner circle, and it was up to Lyanna to do the seducing?

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Of course, House Jordayne is there also

The very location of House Jordayne should be a big red flag that the fever dream locating the tower of joy in Dorne isn't real. Robert Jordan wrote the Wheel of Time series - originally planned as a six-book series that turned into fourteen! Fans of the Wheel of Time series are familiar with the time portals and time travel as well as the dream walkers. To me this is a giant flashing arrow pointing at the fever dream with a direct access ramp to a wheel of time.

Shout out to Maester Flagons (wherever he is) for this: Lord Trebor Jordayne of House Jordayne of the Tor is a clear reference to Robert Jordan…Trebor is Robert in reverse. Hmm, what other Robert looms large in the books? Does not this big fat clue speak to anyone else but me?

Other details of House Jordayne from the wiki:

House Jordayne of the Tor is one of the principal noble houses of Dorne. The Tor is placed on the southern coast of the Sea of Dorne.

Their blazon is a golden quill on checkered dark and light green. Their words do not appear in the books, but in a semi-canon source they are stated to be "Let it be Written".

GRRM has stated that House Jordayne is his homage to Robert Jordan, just as the blackadder sigil is a homage to the Blackadder british television show. I am not sure how the nod to Robert Jordan is proof that the toj was not in Dorne, however. I do agree it certainly hints at a wheel of time in play in this series!

I do think the blackadder of House Wyl is intriguing because the Lord Blackadder of BBC fame was often conniving, cynical and opportunistic. I do wonder how this could play into House Wyl in our story. Perhaps it won't at all.

 

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I never thought Treborn Jordayne of the Tor was anything more than the 3 stooges or Muppet references - either an attempt to be clever and add an Easter egg, or trouble coming up with names. 

I think it is a bit of an Easter egg. The nod to blackadder and House Wyl might be, too. However, House Wyl's sigil made Ned's thoughts in the very first book, which I do think is important. House Jordayne does get mentions in the last three novels. Who really knows what is going on in GRRM's mind.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

And maybe we're just complicating things that are straightforward.

If GRRM only thought of half the symbols you brought up in the last two iterations of Heresy, we would still be waiting for Storm of Swords.

yuup

Well, we did wait a rather long time for Feast. And then for Dance. And now for Winds, so perhaps the complications and symbolism is a trap the author caught himself in?

 

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree; some symbols are there, as easter eggs, homage, referential jokes, and sometimes foreshadowing, but not nearly to the extent that fan theory crafting would suggest, and rarely (if ever) as the foundation for understanding a plot idea or future revelation. At the risk of being overly critical of this method of interpreting the text, my thought is often "okay--but how does that work as a revelation on the page?" Five books of scattered symbols and obscure references might work as an essay length forum post, but whether or not it works as a storytelling idea that is intuitive and impactful to the reader is something else entirely.

I kind of think that he has used so many homages, Easter eggs, hints, nods and plot devices in an effort to disguise the things that are important. It all can't mean something important to the end game, but it's a puzzle he has laid out for us to see if we can pick out the correct details that really mean something. I have no doubt I probably focus on the wrong things, and will be way off base by the time we get a conclusion, but it fun to try to figure it out!

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Well, we did wait a rather long time for Feast. And then for Dance. And now for Winds, so perhaps the complications and symbolism is a trap the author caught himself in?

That’s my suspicion as well.  George in an interview has likened himself to a juggler who has thrown too many balls up in the air, and can’t figure out a way to end the act without a number of them hitting the floor.

In my opinion his most brilliant work was ASOS, but it was also the book that may have made the series too complicated, and prohibited any elegant way to conclude it.

[PrettyPig]

53 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is possible, as Lyanna was missing for quite some time. But the Kingswood Brotherhood would have been ended before the rebellion, correct? As a matter of fact, it was ended before Jaime took his Kingsguard vows at Harrenhal. So, if she rode with an outlaw band, I think it would have to be a different band than the Kingswood Brotherhood if it happened after her reported abduction.

It was prior, but the last stand of the KWB in which the Smiling Knight was slain by SAD happened shortly before Harrenhal, if my totally arbitrary timeline is correct.  I think there may have been a personal element to this as well, although I haven’t definitively worked it out just yet.

57 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Also, I find it interesting that Arya dreams up this fantasy, but thinks it's only something Sansa would dream up, when Arya has clearly dreamed it up herself. Those girls might be different but they certainly have some similarities. Being a dreamer is one of them

I know!  Had Arya been a few years older (like Lyanna) and felt a bit more included in the pseudo “pack” (possibly like Lyanna), I bet she would have done it!

59 minutes ago, St Daga said:

And I am desperately waiting for Ulmer to tell us a bit more about the Kingswood Brotherhood, because I think there is a big reveal coming. If the story hints at Lyanna and the brotherhood, then she had to belong to it before Harrenhal, and that would put her in or near Kings Landing well before Harrenhal. This is a possibility I have toyed with, but there are no hints that Lyanna was at court before, or even after, Harrenhal. 

Same.   “Lyanna at court in KL” has been my headcanon for quite some time now, and I readily admit that about 90% of my crackpot theories fall apart if this turns out not to be true.   I think she was, though, and I think her little secret may have been discovered. Part of that secret may have been that she had a bad boy in her life, her very own Daario.  Now who that bad boy IS?  I go back and forth on it, because the clues fit two people...but perhaps those two are one and the same, I’m not entirely sure.

[St Daga]

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

If Lyanna was involved in a large plot of Rhaegar's, it lesson's my ideas of the "wolf blood" that led to her fall. That might be my interpretation that is incorrect here, because I do think of the wolf blood as being impulsive, as well as bold, unafraid.

I’m not sure that it necessarily lessens your idea.  It kind of depends on the part Lyanna was to play.  Let’s assume for a moment that Lyanna’s role was to give birth to a child/savior/king/(sacrifice?).  We should not make the assumption that Lyanna’s child would only have significance if she gave birth to one of Rhaegar’s magical Targaryen children.

What if the father to be wasn’t Rhaegar or anyone in his inner circle, and it was up to Lyanna to do the seducing?

Oh, I agree. I think that Lyanna's goal could have been to have a child with a special blood line, the blood of the Starks! It's been around two years ago that I finally wrapped my mind around the incest hints and the possibility of the Starks, and now I have a hard time seeing anything else. It's possible she planned to have a child with Brandon, but when he died, she had to turn to another brother. This leaves Ned or Benjen. I guess this also depends on how old Jon is, because Brandon might still be a possibility. Still, I think its Ned! 

Which ever Stark brother was put to use, I think that Lyanna might have been influenced by the gods, or at least Howland possibly encouraging such a relationship. Perhaps Lyanna had dreams or visions like Ned seems to. Ned tells us that he questions why the gods give men lusts that lead to bastards. And then he see's Jon Snow's face! If the "gods" he is talking about is Bloodraven sending dreams, then incest could play a role for the Starks. After all, Bloodraven had an affair with his half-sister Shiera, who was also pursued by another half-brother, Bittersteal. It seems like the hints are well laid for Starkcest to be a legitimate possibility.

Quote

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? AGOT-Eddard IX

I think ice blood will turn out to be just as important as fire blood in this story!

 

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

15 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Well, we did wait a rather long time for Feast. And then for Dance. And now for Winds, so perhaps the complications and symbolism is a trap the author caught himself in?

That’s my suspicion as well.  George in an interview has likened himself to a juggler who has thrown too many balls up in the air, and can’t figure out a way to end the act without a number of them hitting the floor.

In my opinion his most brilliant work was ASOS, but it was also the book that may have made the series too complicated, and prohibited any elegant way to conclude it.

I am just reading Storm again right now, and for me the book just flows so beautifully. Personally, I always bog down just prior to the Red Wedding, but because it's still painful to read, even after the many times I have read those chapters! Once I get past that pain, the story flows brilliantly again!

While I don't mind Feast or Dance (I actually find them very interesting) I do feel like he is a bit lost, or circling his main objective. Some of that is the mess he created for Dany in Meereen, and his increase of POV characters, but it only seems like the complications grew with the last two novels. I also think he likes his little Planetos world and enjoys the world building aspect. But his knot is even worse now than it was at the end of Storm. I honestly don't see how he ties this up in two more novels, and at his current pace, I do worry we will never get any conclusion! 

[PrettyPig]

GRRM needs a local Ran & Linda to come to his house and organize the metric ton of ASOIAF notes he has scattered around on post-its, scribbled on Qdoba napkins & Meow Wolf flyers & random sheets of spiral notebook paper, etc.   I’m not even writing the damn thing and that’s what my “inspirations “ look like, I can only imagine the chaos of his home office.

George, if you are reading this, I am right up I-25 and am mostly available...

[St Daga]

14 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

It was prior, but the last stand of the KWB in which the Smiling Knight was slain by SAD happened shortly before Harrenhal, if my totally arbitrary timeline is correct.  I think there may have been a personal element to this as well, although I haven’t definitively worked it out just yet.

It does seem like the take down of the KWB happened just prior to Harrenhal, which means it was all happening during the winter. I don't know why that seems odd to me, but it does. Where I am from, winter is when people hunker down and don't act crazy. Of course, winter near Kings Landing might not be much of a true winter!

 

17 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Also, I find it interesting that Arya dreams up this fantasy, but thinks it's only something Sansa would dream up, when Arya has clearly dreamed it up herself. Those girls might be different but they certainly have some similarities. Being a dreamer is one of them

I know!  Had Arya been a few years older (like Lyanna) and felt a bit more included in the pseudo “pack” (possibly like Lyanna), I bet she would have done it!

I am certain that Arya was capable, even at age 11, but she always felt like a prisoner of the BWB, not a part of the group. If Lyanna was part of the KWB, then she might have never been a captive of them, therefore never felt like a prisoner. Arya also has every reason to try to get home or reunite with family, where as Lyanna before Harrenhal probably had no reason to try to get home as her life and family had not fallen apart yet! After the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, Lyanna might have had every reason to decide she need to go home, or at least find Ned's army, which mirrors Arya's story line and her quest to go home.

 

19 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Same.   “Lyanna at court in KL” has been my headcanon for quite some time now, and I readily admit that about 90% of my crackpot theories fall apart if this turns out not to be true.   I think she was, though, and I think her little secret may have been discovered. Part of that secret may have been that she had a bad boy in her life, her very own Daario.  Now who that bad boy IS?  I go back and forth on it, because the clues fit two people...but perhaps those two are one and the same, I’m not entirely sure.

Well, I don't see any clues for Lyanna being in KL or not being in KL, so it's possible, either way. I often say almost anything is possible in this story, all GRRM has to do is write it! We really know very little of Lyanna's whereabouts in the story. We know she was at Harrenhal, but we are never told where she came from to arrive at Harrenhal. The assumption is that she came from Winterfell, but I don't know if that is the case. I think Harrenhal is our only positive location on Lyanna, besides her bones being in the Winterfell crypts. I know the WB tells us she was kidnapped near Harrenhal, but I don't know if that is true, or just the official story.

But I am not sure about Lyanna having a Daario in her life. I don't see that in either Arya or Sansa's story, but they are admittedly younger that she would have been. 

Wenda is an anagram for Dawne, and fawn rhymes with dawn, and white is certainly a color we associate with the Dawn sword and the kingsguard. So, Wenda the White Fawn hints to me of SAD. Except we are told that SAD fought and killed the Smiling Knight. I am not sure how it could all work out.

A white fawn also brings to mind Robert, as he was out hunting for a white hart in the Kingswood, but he finds it already dead, apparently some wolves got to it first, and then he turns his attention to the boar that kills him. I actually use this as a detail for Starkcest as well, but as I said up thread, I see it almost everywhere now. Robert wanted something (white hart/Lyanna) but something got it first (wolf pack/a Stark brother perhaps?) A white hart was once a white fawn!

I do think that Lyanna could have as many false identities as we see Arya have, and that is a lot. I certainly think that Wylla is one of Lyanna's identities. Wenda could be, too! Even Sansa has her Alayne false identity in play, as a bastard of House Baelish. (Alayne could be an anagram for a spelling of Lyaena, and I think LF picked it on purpose, I doubt it was really his mother's name)

And now I am rambling, so I am going to stop ...  

[Frey family reunion]

28 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Oh, I agree. I think that Lyanna's goal could have been to have a child with a special blood line, the blood of the Starks! It's been around two years ago that I finally wrapped my mind around the incest hints and the possibility of the Starks, and now I have a hard time seeing anything else. It's possible she planned to have a child with Brandon, but when he died, she had to turn to another brother. This leaves Ned or Benjen. I guess this also depends on how old Jon is, because Brandon might still be a possibility. Still, I think its Ned!

My suspicion is that Jon was born well before the tower of joy incident, so I think Brandon is very much in the picture.  In fact if I had to lay a bet today, that’s who I would put my money on.  

If I had to guess, Jon’s conception may have coincided with the end of the “false spring” and the sudden return of winter.