Heresy 212 The Wolves

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

I think the difference lies in that when she was at Storms End, she was carrying a magical ... Shadow thingy. If Martin is using the old world thoughts, which I think he is, then Mel I think could pass freely, but her shadow baby couldn't. It goes back to the traditions of Guest Rite. So the difference may also be that Jon invited them to cross the Wall. Interesting to think about. 

It's safe to say that Jon invited Stannis, Mel and the whole of Stannis forces across the wall, so if an invite is important, Melisandre certainly would have received one from Jon, and perhaps this does allow her to cross the wall with ease. She recognizes the power and magic in the wall. It will be interesting to see if she should manage to get herself another shadow baby on board if she will be able to cross the wall while she carries it!

Ghost seems to like Mel, and this always seems odd to me. When I read and reread that passage where Ghost seems to taken with Mel, it seems like I am missing something. At first Ghost is wary, but then he almost seems to be in a trance. He looks at Jon as if he is was a stranger. Does she use magic on him? Does warmth call to warmth, as Mel explains?

I don't necessarily trust Ghost's reaction to Val either. Is Val also invited across the wall by Jon, the Lord Commander, the first time she crosses? Val, along with Dalla's son, are brought into Castle Black by either Jon or Stannis, but this happens off page. Is there some distinction in that? Again, perhaps I am thinking about it too hard. Ghost is not around when Jon first meets Mel or Val, and I wonder if that was done on purpose by GRRM?

[Janneyc1]

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It's safe to say that Jon invited Stannis, Mel and the whole of Stannis forces across the wall, so if an invite is important, Melisandre certainly would have received one from Jon, and perhaps this does allow her to cross the wall with ease. She recognizes the power and magic in the wall. It will be interesting to see if she should manage to get herself another shadow baby on board if she will be able to cross the wall while she carries it!

Ghost seems to like Mel, and this always seems odd to me. When I read and reread that passage where Ghost seems to taken with Mel, it seems like I am missing something. At first Ghost is wary, but then he almost seems to be in a trance. He looks at Jon as if he is was a stranger. Does she use magic on him? Does warmth call to warmth, as Mel explains?

I don't necessarily trust Ghost's reaction to Val either. Is Val also invited across the wall by Jon, the Lord Commander, the first time she crosses? Val, along with Dalla's son, are brought into Castle Black by either Jon or Stannis, but this happens off page. Is there some distinction in that? Again, perhaps I am thinking about it too hard. Ghost is not around when Jon first meets Mel or Val, and I wonder if that was done on purpose by GRRM?

Where does Ghost meet Mel? Mel herself admits to carrying powders that can do many different things. Mel and Ghost have always stuck out to me. As Catelyn tells Robb "I don't trust anyone that Grey Wind doesn't trust", Jon should be able to trust Mel.... but we as readers know that is a particularly bad move on his part. I think that Mel is messing with Ghost, due to his weirdness with her. I guess she could be glamouring him but why?

 

As for Val, I think that Val is a priestess for the religion of the Old gods and that Ghost is a gift from the Old Gods. I can understand why those two get along. Ithink that Val will play a more important role than Mel when it comes to resurrecting Jon. 

[SirArthur]

7 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Where does Ghost meet Mel?

"I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." Jon VI - A dance with dragons

[Janneyc1]

10 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

"I can show you." Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." Jon VI - A dance with dragons

Interesting. There isn't much time for her to trick Ghost. I think this may be one that we are looking into too much. 

[Frey family reunion]

36 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Where does Ghost meet Mel? Mel herself admits to carrying powders that can do many different things. Mel and Ghost have always stuck out to me. As Catelyn tells Robb "I don't trust anyone that Grey Wind doesn't trust", Jon should be able to trust Mel.... but we as readers know that is a particularly bad move on his part. I think that Mel is messing with Ghost, due to his weirdness with her. I guess she could be glamouring him but why?

Just curious as to why Jon, and as an extension Ghost, shouldn't trust Melisandre?  Even in her pov it seems that she holds no malice towards Jon, and honestly believes that she had a vision of Jon in danger "daggers in the dark" and she warns him of her vision.  Now of course all that could change if Melisandre has  a vision that she needs to burn Jon, or gets wind of the fact that he may have King's blood (whether the Winter King variety or perhaps (unlikely in my opinion)  the Targaryen variety.  But as of now, Melisandre seems to be acting in good faith towards Jon.

[Janneyc1]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Just curious as to why Jon, and as an extension Ghost, shouldn't trust Melisandre?  Even in her pov it seems that she holds no malice towards Jon, and honestly believes that she had a vision of Jon in danger "daggers in the dark" and she warns him of her vision.  Now of course all that could change if Melisandre has  a vision that she needs to burn Jon, or gets wind of the fact that he may have King's blood (whether the Winter King variety or perhaps (unlikely in my opinion)  the Targaryen variety.  But as of now, Melisandre seems to be acting in good faith towards Jon.

Fire is a fickle friend and Mel is no exception. My interpretation of her is that she isn't loyal to Jon, but thinks of him as a chess piece. Like you said, if she decides that he is better used as a sacrifice, Jon should be worried. If she mistakes one of her visions and sends him on a fool's errand, he should be worried. IDK, I don't trust Mel and I do not think that Jon/Ghost should either. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Janneyc1 said:

Fire is a fickle friend and Mel is no exception. My interpretation of her is that she isn't loyal to Jon, but thinks of him as a chess piece. Like you said, if she decides that he is better used as a sacrifice, Jon should be worried. If she mistakes one of her visions and sends him on a fool's errand, he should be worried. IDK, I don't trust Mel and I do not think that Jon/Ghost should either. 

But the difference between Grey Wind's reaction to the Freys and Ghost's reaction to Melisandre is fairly understandable even without a glamour.  The Freys were actively planning on murdering Robb when Grey Wind was in their presence.  Melisandre is actively trying to protect Jon when Ghost is in her presence.  And as for future events, who is the one person most likely to be able to resurrect Jon, for better or worse?

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

But the difference between Grey Wind's reaction to the Freys and Ghost's reaction to Melisandre is fairly understandable even without a glamour.  The Freys were actively planning on murdering Robb when Grey Wind was in their presence.  Melisandre is actively trying to protect Jon when Ghost is in her presence.  And as for future events, who is the one person most likely to be able to resurrect Jon, for better or worse?

I think we have a misunderstanding of what I mean by trust. She isn't plotting to do Jon wrong, but she could. Obviously the Frey's were plotting the Red Wedding, which explains Grey Wind, but I don't think Jon/ghost should be getting cozy with Mel. I think Jon is a little too close to her, but I can understand why and respect that. 

As for who is most likely to resurrect Jon, I honestly don't think it will be Mel. Yes the Red Priests can bring someone back and yes it is possible, but I don't think Mel knows about Thoros and I think it would detract from the story if it were that easy. I would like to see her try and fail at it. I think Val will have a role to play in the resurrection. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

It's safe to say that Jon invited Stannis, Mel and the whole of Stannis forces across the wall, so if an invite is important, Melisandre certainly would have received one from Jon, and perhaps this does allow her to cross the wall with ease. She recognizes the power and magic in the wall. It will be interesting to see if she should manage to get herself another shadow baby on board if she will be able to cross the wall while she carries it!

Ghost seems to like Mel, and this always seems odd to me. When I read and reread that passage where Ghost seems to taken with Mel, it seems like I am missing something. At first Ghost is wary, but then he almost seems to be in a trance. He looks at Jon as if he is was a stranger. Does she use magic on him? Does warmth call to warmth, as Mel explains?

I don't necessarily trust Ghost's reaction to Val either. Is Val also invited across the wall by Jon, the Lord Commander, the first time she crosses? Val, along with Dalla's son, are brought into Castle Black by either Jon or Stannis, but this happens off page. Is there some distinction in that? Again, perhaps I am thinking about it too hard. Ghost is not around when Jon first meets Mel or Val, and I wonder if that was done on purpose by GRRM?

Melisandre explained to Jon that Ghost liked her, because warmth is attracted to warmth. Yes the white fur and red eyes seems to speak to an alliance with the old gods, but I think the Starks have a fiery origin, defeated winter, and were placed at Winterfell as a shield to protect the realm from ice magic. Jon's dream of being armored in black ice wielding a burning blade seems to hint toward the Lord of Light that Thoros and Melisandre worship:

Quote

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

 

[Janneyc1]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melisandre explained to Jon that Ghost liked her, because warmth is attracted to warmth. Yes the white fur and red eyes seems to speak to an alliance with the old gods, but I think the Starks have a fiery origin, defeated winter, and were placed at Winterfell as a shield to protect the realm from ice magic. Jon's dream of being armored in black ice wielding a burning blade seems to hint toward the Lord of Light that Thoros and Melisandre worship:

 

What are your thoughts then on the Stark's association with the cold and ice? As to the Old Gods, we know there are many and that other ancient cultures worship or include only a couple of them. I think the best examples are the Ironborn, worshiping their Drowned God and including the Storm God in their traditions. Do you think there is an Old God of Fire?

Also that dream was when I started thinking that Jon would suffer a huge change in demeanor and attitude. I got a large Darth Vader vibe off of him. 

[Melifeather]

45 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

What are your thoughts then on the Stark's association with the cold and ice? As to the Old Gods, we know there are many and that other ancient cultures worship or include only a couple of them. I think the best examples are the Ironborn, worshiping their Drowned God and including the Storm God in their traditions. Do you think there is an Old God of Fire?

Also that dream was when I started thinking that Jon would suffer a huge change in demeanor and attitude. I got a large Darth Vader vibe off of him. 

About the only thing we know about the origins of the Starks is that they are of First Men blood, but so are the Ironborn, as well as many other older families. First Men just means they were amongst the earliest migrations. The language of the First Men is the Old Tongue, and they had a runic writing system, and used bronze. I'm sure they had their own religious beliefs when they first arrived, but many took up nature worship. I'm speculating it's because they learned how to comp natural forces and work magic by either observing the Children or being taught by them outright.

It seems like the various gods grew organically out of First Men exploration of comping the forces of nature to work magic. One of the earliest First Men in the Vale for instance, was the Winged Knight who was said to fly a giant griffin. Surely that took magic!

The earliest settlers of Storms End worshipped the sea god and goddess of the wind, which is detailed in a type of allegory story of Durran taking Elenei to wife. In my opinion, Elenei is the end result - the magic - of combining the two elements of water and air. I suspect the Drowned God and Storm God of the Ironborn were influenced by the same comping of water and air magic. Another water/air worshipping group were the people who lived in The Three Sisters, as they have their Lady of the Waves and Lord of the Skies.

I'm thinking that the Starks originally had a fiery god, but after the Pact they put aside their old faith and adopted the nameless gods of the Children which center around stream, forest, and stone - which are not ice centric. I understand the books persuade us to think of the Starks as being on "the Ice side", especially since Ned's sword was named Ice, but if we view all their elements together - the name of their castle (Winterfell), the old title of their kings (King of Winter), their motto (Winter is Coming), along with the sword, and I just cannot help thinking that they are guarding against these things - not promoting them. Ned's sword Ice was actually a dark and smokey Valyrian steel blade. Why such a thing would be named Ice surely isn't due to it's appearance! No, I think it's called Ice, because that's what it kills. We have to remember that it was spell-forged in Valyria - a place associated with fire. Every great House in Westeros has a Valyrian great sword, presumably to defend against an attack by ice magic.

Edited to add - now consider the Daynes. They have a sword called Dawn that is milky white. I would think it's the opposite of the Stark's Ice, and would guard against an attack by fire.

[Janneyc1]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm thinking that the Starks originally had a fiery god, but after the Pact they put aside their old faith and adopted the nameless gods of the Children which center around stream, forest, and stone - which are not ice centric. I understand the books persuade us to think of the Starks as being on "the Ice side", especially since Ned's sword was named Ice, but if we view all their elements together - the name of their castle (Winterfell), the old title of their kings (King of Winter), their motto (Winter is Coming), along with the sword, and I just cannot help thinking that they are guarding against these things - not promoting them. Ned's sword Ice was actually a dark and smokey Valyrian steel blade. Why such a thing would be named Ice surely isn't due to it's appearance! No, I think it's called Ice, because that's what it kills. We have to remember that it was spell-forged in Valyria - a place associated with fire. Every great House in Westeros has a Valyrian great sword, presumably to defend against an attack by ice magic.

Interesting. My thoughts on why Ice is called Ice is because the original house sword was one of the Others swords that was captured during the battle for the Dawn, as the blade was replaced with a VS one, they retained the original name of the sword. I flip between the ancient Stark's being allies with the Others and being the Others worst enemy. Maybe both. Maybe the Stark's subjugated the Others for a bit. 

 

What are your thought's on Ice-Eyes, the Stark that came out of a blizzard and liberated the Wolfs Den?

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Interesting. There isn't much time for her to trick Ghost. I think this may be one that we are looking into too much. 

The clue is given by that scene when Rattleshirt is revealed to really be Mance.

Our Mel, speaks a certain word. Mance and Jon each hear a different word and neither is the word actually spoken. Mel is playing games with their minds and the simplest answer to Ghost's behaviour is that Mel makes him think that she is Jon.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Where does Ghost meet Mel? Mel herself admits to carrying powders that can do many different things. Mel and Ghost have always stuck out to me. As Catelyn tells Robb "I don't trust anyone that Grey Wind doesn't trust", Jon should be able to trust Mel.... but we as readers know that is a particularly bad move on his part. I think that Mel is messing with Ghost, due to his weirdness with her. I guess she could be glamouring him but why?

 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Just curious as to why Jon, and as an extension Ghost, shouldn't trust Melisandre?  Even in her pov it seems that she holds no malice towards Jon, and honestly believes that she had a vision of Jon in danger "daggers in the dark" and she warns him of her vision.  Now of course all that could change if Melisandre has  a vision that she needs to burn Jon, or gets wind of the fact that he may have King's blood (whether the Winter King variety or perhaps (unlikely in my opinion)  the Targaryen variety.  But as of now, Melisandre seems to be acting in good faith towards Jon.

Melisandre has an agenda, and my feeling is that she is willing to manipulate anyone to achieve her goal, what ever that is. Stannis should not trust her either. I am not saying that she intends to do Jon harm, but if it was needed, she would would not shy away from that. She wants Jon to trust her, but he does not. She even works hard to convince him of her vision of the grey girl as proof for him to trust her visions. Just as she had to work to convince Stannis, a firm doubter, of her powers. She is manipulating Stannis and she is manipulating Jon. I think her good faith only goes as far as getting her to a goal, whatever that might be.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Melisandre is actively trying to protect Jon when Ghost is in her presence.  And as for future events, who is the one person most likely to be able to resurrect Jon, for better or worse?

Is Mel trying to protect Jon? Perhaps on a superficial level, but I am not convinced of her sincerity or her ultimate goal. Davos see's her for what she is, someone willing to sacrifice a lot of life and blood to serve her ultimate purpose. And perhaps her ultimate purpose is to save the world, but for now I remain skeptical.

I have no doubt that Mel somehow manipulated Ghost into his odd behavior. She is doing this in a way that manipulates Jon into trusting her, because she knows he trusts Ghost's instincts. Val could do the same thing in manipulating Ghost and Jon.

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

As for who is most likely to resurrect Jon, I honestly don't think it will be Mel. Yes the Red Priests can bring someone back and yes it is possible, but I don't think Mel knows about Thoros and I think it would detract from the story if it were that easy. I would like to see her try and fail at it. I think Val will have a role to play in the resurrection. 

Val seems to be the ice priestess role and Mel is the fire priestess, and my guess is that Val is no more trustworthy than Mel is. Neither are malicious but both have an agenda, a goal, and will manipulate to achieve what ever goal that is.

Honestly, I am not sold on Jon needing a resurrection because I don't see him dying from his wounds.

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Our Mel, speaks a certain word. Mance and Jon each hear a different word and neither is the word actually spoken. Mel is playing games with their minds and the simplest answer to Ghost's behaviour is that Mel makes him think that she is Jon.

 

[Brad Stark]

The easy explanation is Ghost likes Mel because of a trick and Summer dislikes Coldhands because he smells dead.  Because obviously Coldhands is more trustworthy than Mel. 

I wonder if instead, whoever sent the wolves is working against Bloodraven, and Bloodraven is setting up to be opposed by Melisandre.  The wolves are more loyal to whoever sent them to the Starks than to the Starks themselves. 

[Melifeather]

47 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Interesting. My thoughts on why Ice is called Ice is because the original house sword was one of the Others swords that was captured during the battle for the Dawn, as the blade was replaced with a VS one, they retained the original name of the sword. I flip between the ancient Stark's being allies with the Others and being the Others worst enemy. Maybe both. Maybe the Stark's subjugated the Others for a bit. 

 

What are your thought's on Ice-Eyes, the Stark that came out of a blizzard and liberated the Wolfs Den?

I hadn't really thought about him before, but his description sounds like he was one of the Kings of Winter, because it's said that:

 

Quote

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”

The slaver's entrails were hung in the branches of a weirwood heart tree, so I would say that Ice Eyes was a worshipper of the streams, forest, and stone - the same old gods that the Children worship...so not an ice worshipper, but a defending warrior during the winter. The winter and cold air doesn't seem to affect Starks much, and neither does the cold affect Melisandre. Even though she wears no gloves at the Wall her hands are warm to the touch. Ned stood naked in front of a window at Winterfell while Catelyn huddled under the blankets. The Starks have warmth inside.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melisandre explained to Jon that Ghost liked her, because warmth is attracted to warmth. Yes the white fur and red eyes seems to speak to an alliance with the old gods, but I think the Starks have a fiery origin, defeated winter, and were placed at Winterfell as a shield to protect the realm from ice magic. Jon's dream of being armored in black ice wielding a burning blade seems to hint toward the Lord of Light that Thoros and Melisandre worship:

Just because Mel says something, doesn't make it the truth. However, I do agree that the Stark's have a fire origin of some sort. I think it goes to Asshai. And I think it involves dragons thousands and thousands of years ago. There is something important about the First Keep having gargoyles on it. Gargoyles are something that we have only seen at Dragonstone in our story and Dragonstone's connections with fire and dragons cannot be denied. Winterfell also set's on a place of geothermic activity, which also hints fire, not unlike Dragonstone or Valyria. 

I would say that the Stark's might have been the first combination of fire and ice many thousands of years ago. I think they are the Kings of Winter because they claimed the Winter Hill, although I do think what you propose about them defeating winter could be true, and could be the origin of their title. It would work nicely in the story.

The burning blade of Jon's dream is described as red, but not necessarily on fire. He calls it Longclaw, but this might not be Longclaw in all actuality. Is it a blade with Longclaw's hilt? What if Longclaw's pommel was placed on Oathkeeper, which once was Ice. We are told in the prologue of Game that nothing burns like the cold. So, a blade that was Ice but is dyed to be the color of dark red (blood, perhaps) in combination of the smokey black of Valyrian steel could "burn" and be "red" but still not have anything to do with heat. Armored in black ice doesn't need to be actual armor. Sansa is armored in courtesy. Tyrion's advice to Jon is to armor himself in his bastardy. Black ice could be a metaphor for something that is not actual armor at all. I am not sold on any one idea for this "black ice" and "blade burned red" but I see there could be multiple possibilities. Your idea fit's as well.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm thinking that the Starks originally had a fiery god, but after the Pact they put aside their old faith and adopted the nameless gods of the Children which center around stream, forest, and stone - which are not ice centric.

Water is carried in streams and water is certainly ice-centric! We have the White Knife river which runs very close to Winterfell, and a white knife could be an knife made of ice, or a substance that looks like ice.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ned's sword Ice was actually a dark and smokey Valyrian steel blade. Why such a thing would be named Ice surely isn't due to it's appearance! No, I think it's called Ice, because that's what it kills. We have to remember that it was spell-forged in Valyria - a place associated with fire. Every great House in Westeros has a Valyrian great sword, presumably to defend against an attack by ice magic.

 

56 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Interesting. My thoughts on why Ice is called Ice is because the original house sword was one of the Others swords that was captured during the battle for the Dawn, as the blade was replaced with a VS one, they retained the original name of the sword. I flip between the ancient Stark's being allies with the Others and being the Others worst enemy. Maybe both. Maybe the Stark's subjugated the Others for a bit. 

I am not sure that it matters that the current sword that was called Ice is Valyrian steel. It might be, but that blade is only 400 years old, and was named for a previous blade of House Stark. How many Stark blades have been named Ice over the course of 8000 years? More than two, I would assume. Perhaps the name is more important than the blades substance? The name of the sword predates the Valyrian steel weapon we are introduced to in the story. Who knows what the original Stark sword Ice was made out of? Lot's of options such as the sword of an Other, or whatever Dawn is made of, or Dawn itself. Now, it could have been whatever substance is called dragonsteel, which Jon assumes is Valyrian steel but Jon could be wrong about that. If the original Ice was dragonsteel, whatever that is, it does have a connection to fire, I would agree. That is an option to consider. 

And, if a fire dragon goes into the forging of a weapon like dragonsteal or Valyrian steel, then could an Ice Dragon have something to do with the forging of a weapon with characteristics of ice, instead of fire?

And not every great house in Westeros has a Valyrian steel sword. We don't hear of a Gardner or Tyrell blade of Valyrian steel, and one would think that the Kings of the Reach would have something like that. No Valyrian steel that belongs to House Martell. House Arryn is not associated with any Valyrian steel and they have held the vale for thousands of years.

And we have some houses that have Valyrian steel because the claimed it in battle less than 200 years ago, like Nightfall, which now belongs to House Harlaw but once belonged to Dalton Greyjoy. Nightfall is a very interesting name for a weapon, and it has a moonstone in it's pommel. Nightfall seems like a blade that could serve an opposite purpose of a blade called Dawn. Another interesting blade is Red Rain, which belongs to House Drumm, a fairly minor house. Why is this sword called Red Rain. Perhaps because it spills a lot of blood, but is it possible it could be red in color. In the text there is no description for the blade, but it must be notable, as the Damphair recognizes it on site at the Kingsmoot. Red rain is interesting because its wording that connects to Jory Cassel and Ned's fight in the streets against Jaime's men. Perhaps GRRM just thinks the phrase sounds cool? It rather does, I would agree.

If Valyrian steel and dragonsteel are the same thing, then it might serve a purpose against the Other's, but if it's not the same thing, than the Long Night far predates Valyria, and therefore Valyrian steel had no part to play in ending the Long Night.

 

 

[Brad Stark]

We have Dawn, which has been suspected as being Lightbringer.  But I wondered if Valyrian Steel is fire, and maybe Dawn is the ice equivalent.  Dawn is white and milky, Valyrian steel is dark with flowing colors and Lightbringer is described as red. 

[SirArthur]

The focus should be on the ways how Valyrian steel weapons are reforged. But GRRM somehow handwaved it away with "Tywin found a smith". 

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The clue is given by that scene when Rattleshirt is revealed to really be Mance.

Our Mel, speaks a certain word. Mance and Jon each hear a different word and neither is the word actually spoken. Mel is playing games with their minds and the simplest answer to Ghost's behaviour is that Mel makes him think that she is Jon.

That makes more sense. 

 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Val seems to be the ice priestess role and Mel is the fire priestess, and my guess is that Val is no more trustworthy than Mel is. Neither are malicious but both have an agenda, a goal, and will manipulate to achieve what ever goal that is.

Honestly, I am not sold on Jon needing a resurrection because I don't see him dying from his wounds.

At minimum of four cuts: a graze to the neck, deep stab to the abdominal area, deep stab in between the shoulder blades, and a mystery stab which I am assuming is on his back since Jon is face down. The graze might not be fatal. There are a few big blood vessels in the abdominal region as well as other important organs. There are plenty of fragile important things in between the shoulder blades, such as the spinal column, the heart, both lungs can be accessed there. In that chapter, there is no mention of Jon wearing armor and I don't think furs would be enough to reduce the severity of the wounds. 2 of the 4 wounds are possibly fatal or would be crippling in real life. With their lack of medicine, these two would be fatal. If I was a gambling man, I would say that he needs to be brought back.

 

That said, I realized that this isn't a quiet event like in the show. I missed that men were screaming and that someone would have followed him out of the Shieldhall. Castle Black is about to turn into a blood bath.