Heresy 212 The Wolves

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Sometimes wrinkles come later. 

I don't know where this might go if true. I'm just pointing out that GRRM has confirmed the first part of a theory which has been floating around for some time.

Why wouldn't BR take the sword with him on his rangings?  Jon doesn't leave Longclaw behind.  Perhaps the sword disappeared with BR and the COTF have the sword. 

[Melifeather]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM's terminology is sometimes a bit dodgy

 

55 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

That's rpg logic. 

from wikipedia: 

Joseph Swetnam (died 1621) states that the bastard sword is midway in length between an arming sword and a long sword. 

 

28 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is within GRRM's world, but this information doesn't match any real world classification where greatswords do not exist, longswords are usually two handed and bastard swords are shorter than longswords.

Well, we are discussing GRRMs world, and the differences between Longclaw and Dark Sister. GRRM says bastard swords are longer than longswords in his world, therefore Longclaw is longer than Dark Sister.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

That's rpg logic. 

from wikipedia: 

Joseph Swetnam (died 1621) states that the bastard sword is midway in length between an arming sword and a long sword. 

rpg logic?

What have rocket-propelled grenades got to do with warfare in Westeros?

[St Daga]

35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

It is within GRRM's world, but this information doesn't match any real world classification where greatswords do not exist, longswords are usually two handed and bastard swords are shorter than longswords.

Well, we are discussing GRRMs world, and the differences between Longclaw and Dark Sister. GRRM says bastard swords are longer than longswords in his world, therefore Longclaw is longer than Dark Sister.

 I think in this case, we need to defer to the world that GRRM built and the terminology he gives us. 

 

Quote

Horse and Hop-Robin fetched padding for the lord commander, along with a ringmail hauberk to go over it, and greaves, gorget, and halfhelm. A black shield rimmed with iron for his left arm, a blunted longsword for his right hand. The sword gleamed silvery grey in the dawn light, almost new. One of the last to come from Donal's forge. A pity he did not live long enough to put an edge on it. The blade was shorter than Longclaw but made of common steel, which made it heavier. His blows would be a little slower. "It will serve." Jon turned to face his foes. "Come." ADWD-Jon VI

GRRM seems to classify a longsword as a sword that would be used with one hand while the combatants other hand (in most cases) is used for a shield. It's also described as shorter than Longclaw.

 

Quote

His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die." He lifted the greatsword high above his head. AGOT-Bran I

A greatsword is both long and heavy, and is meant to be used with two hands, such as Ice, Dawn or Heartsbane, unless you are the size of Gregor Clegane to can swing a greatsword with one hand. 

 

Quote

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword." Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. "This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel. AGOT-Jon VIII

A bastard sword seems to fall between the two is size, both the blade size and the pommel size.

 

Quote

Jon drew his longsword. He dared defy Ser Alliser only to a point, and he feared he was well beyond it now. AGOT-Jon IV

In Jon's first several instances of him fighting or practice with a sword in Game, the sword is referred to as a longsword, which seems to be how he was trained to fight at Winterfell by Ser Rodrik or Ned, himself. This type of sword can later be used in comparison to Longclaw or Ice.

 

Quote

Robb and Osha matched blows in midstream. Her long spear was a steel-headed serpent, flashing out at his chest, once, twice, three times, but Robb parried every thrust with his longsword, turning the point aside. On the fourth or fifth thrust, the tall woman overextended herself and lost her balance, just for a second. Robb charged, riding her down. AGOT-Bran V

Robb also seems to fight with a longsword, and it seems to be logical that he and Jon were trained with weapons of the same size and method.

 

GRRM might be incorrect about real world terminology, but in ASOIAF, he makes the world.

 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

What have rocket-propelled grenades got to do with warfare in Westeros?

Anti Dragon weapons? 

 

Jokes, aside, I think that Dark Sister is with Bloodraven in his cave. 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

 

Well, we are discussing GRRMs world, and the differences between Longclaw and Dark Sister. GRRM says bastard swords are longer than longswords in his world, therefore Longclaw is longer than Dark Sister.

I agree. I just added the clarification to avoid confusion with other classifications.

Longclaw has its own 500 year history and it doesn't seem to match the description of Dark Sister.

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

rpg logic?

What have rocket-propelled grenades got to do with warfare in Westeros?

role playing gaming. Like Dungeons and Dragons. 

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

GRRM might be incorrect about real world terminology, but in ASOIAF, he makes the world.

Yes. And he has also done this with dragons, instead of calling them Wyvern. Luckily in our case he has defined longsword and bastard sword in his texts. The only issue may be, when he changes the meaning of words and it is not always clear. Especially, when those word meanings are controverse in the real world. I don't know if the flying mouse, we discussed a long time ago, is such a case. A megabat is not a flying mouse in german. 

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

role playing gaming. Like Dungeons and Dragons. 

 

Yes. And he has also done this with dragons, instead of calling them Wyvern. Luckily in our case he has defined longsword and bastard sword in his texts. The only issue may be, when he changes the meaning of words and it is not always clear. Especially, when those word meanings are controverse in the real world. I don't know if the flying mouse, we discussed a long time ago, is such a case. A megabat is not a flying mouse in german. 

GRRM-like dragons existed in medieval mythology. Like in this St George and the dragon paint:

Dragon

The wyvern sub-class/distinction is a later addition.

[Janneyc1]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

GRRM-like dragons existed in medieval mythology. Like in this St George and the dragon paint:

Dragon

The wyvern sub-class/distinction is a later addition.

So speaking of dragons and reptile like things, do you think we will see lizard lions? do you guys think that they will affect the story?

[Black Crow]

I suspect that we would refer to lizard lions as crocodiles

[Tucu]

10 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

So speaking of dragons and reptile like things, do you think we will see lizard lions? do you guys think that they will affect the story?

I think we will see them in action (or at least mentioned) if the Freys try to reinforce Bolton or during the northern invasion of the Riverlands ("chased" by the Others)

[Janneyc1]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I suspect that we would refer to lizard lions as crocodiles

That is my suspicion as well.

[Janneyc1]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think we will see them in action (or at least mentioned) if the Freys try to reinforce Bolton or during the northern invasion of the Riverlands ("chased" by the Others)

speaking of chased by the Others, I think that an Other has made it through the Wall to Winterfell and that They were herding the wildings south. 

[Brad Stark]

I was once fancinated how so many different cultures, including those far separated such as native Americans, depict dragons and have legends about them. Looking into this more, I realized the only commonality is that all cultures have mythical creatures, and people studying them are extremely liberal applying the term 'dragon' to anything snake or lizard like or having wings. 

GRRM didn't want 4 legs and 2 wings, as this combination never occurred in nature.  All winged creatures except insects have 2 wings and 2 legs, so it makes sense to use this combination. 

The world book does reference wyverns as flying creatures with leathery wings.  It seems to imply Wyverns and Fireworms are natural creatures, and dragons are an unnatural combination of the two. 

[Janneyc1]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I was once fancinated how so many different cultures, including those far separated such as native Americans, depict dragons and have legends about them. Looking into this more, I realized the only commonality is that all cultures have mythical creatures, and people studying them are extremely liberal applying the term 'dragon' to anything snake or lizard like or having wings. 

GRRM didn't want 4 legs and 2 wings, as this combination never occurred in nature.  All winged creatures except insects have 2 wings and 2 legs, so it makes sense to use this combination. 

The world book does reference wyverns as flying creatures with leathery wings.  It seems to imply Wyverns and Fireworms are natural creatures, and dragons are an unnatural combination of the two. 

It also mentions velociraptors, so I am inclined to think that Sothorys is kinda like the Lost World.

 

I also think that you are onto something with the liberal labeling of dragons. From the world book, we know that dragons used to roost on the island that the High Tower is built on. With your logic applied, I think this just means that something big and could fly roosted there and not the dragons that we see later in the series. 

[Tucu]

17 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

speaking of chased by the Others, I think that an Other has made it through the Wall to Winterfell and that They were herding the wildings south. 

I agree with the herding south; we have discussed this in the past. We have also talked about some wildlings being part of the Others hierarchy. My bet for the first WW south of the Wall is Theon as he already is The Ghost in Winterfell and he is about to be sacrificed below a weirwood.

[St Daga]

19 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Yes. And he has also done this with dragons, instead of calling them Wyvern. Luckily in our case he has defined longsword and bastard sword in his texts. The only issue may be, when he changes the meaning of words and it is not always clear. Especially, when those word meanings are controverse in the real world. I don't know if the flying mouse, we discussed a long time ago, is such a case. A megabat is not a flying mouse in german. 

You make a good point when you mention dragons vs wyvern's in our world termanology (although this doesn't work for every culture in our world, with Chinese dragons being snakelike, with 4 smaller legs and no wings), with GRRM using what is commonly described as a wyvern and calling it a dragon. I suppose it all comes down to him and his world.

As to the flying mouse discussion, that is something I am not aware of, however I would suspect that each time a book is translated from one language to another there will be discrepancies such as this, and more than a few sources. 

20 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Jokes, aside, I think that Dark Sister is with Bloodraven in his cave. 

It makes sense that Bloodraven would have carried this sword on his ranging, and would keep it in his possession. It is interesting about this information on Dark Sister going to the wall with Bloodraven. When this information popped up, there was a small discussion on LH about it as well. How could this information work in the text?

Bran, Rickon, Osha, Meera and Hodor all took swords from the crypts, and Bran, Meera and Hodor would still have those iron swords in Bloodraven's cave. I have wondered about Dark Sister and Meera, although I am not sure about the idea of twins in the story, with Meera being one of them. However, Meera's color imagery also matches Rhaegal, and I do find that very interesting, and she is certainly worth speculating about.

Meera takes Rickard Stark's iron sword from his statue but Bran points out that she complains it is too heavy. This sounds a bit like Arya and Syrio and the practice sword that Arya is to train with. Heavy is good, at least for training. Arya's ultimate goal is to wield Needle. So, is Meera training in those caves with Rickard's sword, and if she stumbles across Dark Sister (a slender longsword designed for a woman) and if so, will all this other sword work have been enough practice for Meera to wield a Valyrian steel blade?

The downside to this argument is that I don't think we ever see Meera practicing with a sword, only her frog spear and net, but it's possible that she is practicing off page, and GRRM could drop this information into the text with ease, I suspect.

But the fact that Blackfyre and Dark Sister never get a mention in the text of the actual ASOIAF novels (only the companion works and SSM's) makes me wonder if these blades are really going to be important in this story.   

What I think could turn out to be more important is that Bran and Co currently have three crypt swords in their possession north of the Wall, those swords are said to be made of iron, and Old Nan tells us that the Other's hate iron! That information is given to us in the very first novel, not in other world stories or SSM's. If the Other's are truly the enemy (I am not sold on that concept) then perhaps these swords are important against the Others.

 

 

[Janneyc1]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I agree with the herding south; we have discussed this in the past. We have also talked about some wildlings being part of the Others hierarchy. My bet for the first WW south of the Wall is Theon as he already is The Ghost in Winterfell and he is about to be sacrificed below a weirwood.

So my take is different, slightly. Looking into some tiny details, it can be interpreted that the snow storm that is plaguing Winterfell and Stannis is beginning to be felt at the Wall at the time of Jon's sharp and pointy adventure, and the Storm is felt in the Riverlands, at Riverrun when Jaime finds out about Winter arriving. 

It looks as if the storm is originating around Winterfell and staying there. Which is very odd considering that storms move and dissipate. This storm seems to be getting stronger. My speculation is that this is an Other powered storm that is suppose to cripple the North. 

I agree that Theon might become an Other, it holds promise. 

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

So my take is different, slightly. Looking into some tiny details, it can be interpreted that the snow storm that is plaguing Winterfell and Stannis is beginning to be felt at the Wall at the time of Jon's sharp and pointy adventure, and the Storm is felt in the Riverlands, at Riverrun when Jaime finds out about Winter arriving. 

It looks as if the storm is originating around Winterfell and staying there. Which is very odd considering that storms move and dissipate. This storm seems to be getting stronger. My speculation is that this is an Other powered storm that is suppose to cripple the North. 

I agree that Theon might become an Other, it holds promise. 

The storm coming from the south is very suspicious. We have many otherly elements operating around Winterfell. Bran and Theon are two of them; Mance and his secret plan too. We also have the Boltons with their icy eyes ("All he and Ramsay had in common were their eyes. His eyes are ice") usurping Winterfell with a fake Arya Stark now that Winter has finally arrived.

[JNR]

On 8/26/2018 at 3:59 AM, Black Crow said:

A longsword [not actually a term much used in real mediaeval nomenclature] is exactly what it says; a long two handed sword - as opposed to a broadsword which is normally wielded with one hand. A bastard sword is so named because its neither one nor the other.

That's true. 

However, any way you slice it, a bastard sword and a longsword are not the same length, and it doesn't seem to me Longclaw has much chance of being Dark Sister.