Heresy 212 The Wolves

[Brad Stark]

The Isle of Faces is unusual in that hardly anyone ever goes there, and no one tried to conquer or claim it.  It isn't taboo or off limits as no one makes a big deal about Howland going there and we have seen battles fought there.  And we've seen very little of the green men or their interactions with the rest of the world. 

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

Having it hidden does make some sense, if you fear people finding it and destroying the weirwoods.

 

It sounds like a giant pontoon boat! Party in the Neck! In all seriousness, it is an interesting idea if the Isle of Faces could move around in the God's Eye. But how would this effect the giant weirwood grove that is supposed to be there? Is the weirwood grove only a rumor? Could it still root into the earth of Planetos, anchored by roots while the island itself was capable of movement?

The idea of the greenmen at the Isle of Faces and the greenmen of the neck makes some sense if they are all associated with crannog-like structures!

 

Not necessarily an inverse, it might depend on perspective. Arya is at the lake which is calling to her , where as Howland was far away from the Gods Eye, which was calling to him. I love the idea of Arya barefoot and enjoying the mud between her toes. Does this hint at her belonging to the crannogs in some way. Sansa swears grumkins replaced her real sister and left Arya in her place. Perhaps grumkins are crannogmen? Bran tells us that Meera reminds him of Arya. I have always used that to try to link Meera to the Starks, but perhaps this should be used to link Arya to the Reeds?

 

I like tinfoil ...

Interesting connection between a god that sounds like Garth Greenhand and a magical island full of lore in Westeros. The Dagda sounds a bit like Odin, as well. I can't find an island directly tied to Odin but in Norse myths addressed in the Prose Edda there is a great lake, Amsvartnir and within that lake is an island called Lyngvi, which is where the great world Fenrir is bound. Of course, Odin is tied to Ragnorok, (Fenrir will kill or eat Odin, depending on the myth) but so are almost all the Norse deities.

So, Bloodraven has Odin like qualities and he is currently being sucked dry/eaten by the weirnet/weirwoods. Could the weirnet be the great wolf, the chained wolf? Perhaps I have fallen off the edge of the cracked pot...

 

This is great stuff!

I would agree that the weirwood root system should hold an island in place! Do you suppose the Green Men are actually like Coldhands, enlisted to protect a large weirwood grove? 

The text lists Bran as the winged and chained wolf, so he's likely Fenrir.

In the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, Howland spends a winter on the Isle of Faces, but when spring broke he heard the wide world calling him. This sounds the opposite of Arya hearing the lake calling her.

21 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I do hope that the Wild Hunt makes an appearance in the story. Such a fun myth.  

Some readers see Ramsay and his inclination to hunt men and women in the woods as the nod to the Wild Hunt.

[Janneyc1]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Some readers see Ramsay and his inclination to hunt men and women in the woods as the nod to the Wild Hunt.

I mean, yeah it might be a nod, but GRRM also has a huge pack of wolves chilling in the Riverlands. It wouldn't be hard to utilize that into a hunt either. 

[Brad Stark]

I've thought about The Horn of Winter and The Hammer of Waters and the wierwoods.  What if the wierwoods are all connected and the horn can make them move?  This could be how The Hammer of Waters worked, how the horn can bring down The Wall, and explains waking giants and sleepers in the Earth.

Could this tie into either Howland or an island? 

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Brad Stark said:

I've thought about The Horn of Winter and The Hammer of Waters and the wierwoods.  What if the wierwoods are all connected and the horn can make them move?  This could be how The Hammer of Waters worked, how the horn can bring down The Wall, and explains waking giants and sleepers in the Earth.

Could this tie into either Howland or an island? 

So the Hammer of the Waters is a tsunami right? You need a lot of force to make one of those and it needs to be sufficiently out to sea so that the wave has time to accumulate volume. My guess is that the first time it was used (that we know about) it likely started up in the north, possibly from Skagos, and was aimed south, at the arm of Dorne. the flooding of the neck probably didn't have the right amount of distance to accumulate enough volume and it wasn't as effective. 

 

As to the trees moving, I don't think they can. I think they are interconnected and that would make them moving difficult to do. 

 

As to the breaking of the Wall, I think that it will come down to harmonics to break it. get the right frequency with the right amplitude and it could possibly shatter it. Or use dragons to melt it. 

 

Personally, I think the Horn of Winter is a bluff. I don't think it exists and if it does, I suspect that it is a dragon horn that will wake a dragon that is inside the Wall. 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The Isle of Faces is unusual in that hardly anyone ever goes there, and no one tried to conquer or claim it.

If so, then the Andals, as they invaded Westeros, said to themselves "Here's a bunch of weirwoods.  We should leave them alone." 

Or was something else the case?

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

 It isn't taboo or off limits as no one makes a big deal about Howland going there

No one knows Howland went there (if he did -- assuming Meera's tale is true).  Even if he tweeted about it and posted selfies, he couldn't have had many followers as a shunned crannogman.

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

we have seen battles fought there

I don't think there's such a reference in canon.

[Janneyc1]

6 minutes ago, JNR said:

If so, then the Andals, as they invaded Westeros, said to themselves "Here's a bunch of weirwoods.  We should leave them alone." 

Or was something else the case?

I think that it may have a negative energy on it that gives off a vibe of "Don't come here, you won't like it". You may even need greensight just to find the dang thing. 

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

In the past we have discussed how GRRM admitted being inspired by Marvel's universe. The Dagda and other Celtic Gods have appeared in their comics since the 1950s.

In the Marvel Universe, Dagda is the brother/husband of Morrigan, uncle of Bran The Blessed (blessed crow) and uncle of the gods of spring and winter. There is a backstory around an abduction leading to changes of seasons

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Creiddylad was the daugter of Leir.

She was betrothed to Gwythr, the god of winter, but his younger brother Gwynn, the god of springtime, fell in love with her and abducted her. For the next months, Gwythr pursued Gwynn, and retrieved Creiddylad at the start of winter. Gwynn would abduct her again the next spring, starting the eternal cycle anew

Gwythr and Gwynn are also part of the welsh mythology and arthurian legends. Gwynn is associated with the Wild Hunt and Glastonbury Tor.

The mythic stories to explain the season's are very interesting, and I suspect very important to GRRM's story line, since the magic of the seasons seems integral to the story he is telling.

I don't know the comic world very well, but it stands to reason that GRRM is just as inspired by it as he seems to be with real world history and mythology and literature.

I did a little internet search of The Dagda last night and I came across the concept of The Dagda crying tears of blood. Stuff like that catches my attention because of the weirwoods as well as that imagery showing up in dreams in the story. The Dagda had a son, Cermait, who was killed and this induced the tears of blood from The Dagda. The Dagda eventually resurrected Cermait from the dead with the power of his staff. Cermait had three son's who eventually avenged their father's death (I am not sure if this was before or after the resurrection) and went on to rule jointly as High Kings of Ireland. That's the short wikipedia version.

I came across an Irish translation of the myth and it's a little darker. Cermait, who was The Dagda's son, had an affair with a married woman, and her husband killed him when he found out. The Dagda was walking down a path, carrying his dead son on his back, and came across three brother's who had a staff, a shirt and cloak, all with magic virtues. It was the staff that interested the Dadga, a staff that had two ends. The brother's gave the staff to The Dadga and he touched the three of them with one end, and all three fell dead in the road. The Dadga then touched the other end of the staff to the body of his son Cermait, who then rose back to life. At this time, Cermait asked about the three dead men in the road and his father explained they had shared their treasure with him and he killed them to bring his son back to life. Cermait told his father that was a "sad deed" and seemingly chided, The Dadga used the staff to bring the three brothers back to life. But he talked them into letting him keep the staff to fight his enemies. The text implies The Dadga never returned the staff to these brothers, but did allow them to keep their other treasures, the shirt and cloak. In this version, I saw no incident of eyes weeping blood (I did come across that in most stories, however), but the death for life is very interesting. Three lives to replace one life, a sacrifice of three.

I did come across a place called The Hill of Tear's (Tulach Der), which is where The Dadga was said to have cried his tears of blood over the death of his son.

The concept of stopping time so a pregnancy and birth that would take 9 months all happens in one day is also very interesting, especially since passage of time seems to be so important in our story, as The Dagda did with the birth of another son, Aengus (Oengus?). The terminology I found was that he "stopped the sun from setting for nine months". We might have a mirror to that in a power stopping the sun from rising for a length of time which perhaps became known as the Long Night!

I didn't make the connection at the time, but when I was looking into crypts, tombs, barrow, cist's and cairns, I did a bit of reading on Newgrange in Ireland, and this great tomb complex is said to be dated back to Neolithic time frame, 3200 BC or so, making it older than Stonehenge or the pyramids of Egypt. Newgrange is given credit in Irish myth for being the burial place of The Dagda and his wife Boan and their son Oengus. Newgrange seems to have a strong tie to the Winter solstice, with the central chamber being illuminated by the rising sun only on the Winter's solstice.  

 

 

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Gwythr and Gwynn are also part of the welsh mythology and arthurian legends. Gwynn is associated with the Wild Hunt and Glastonbury Tor.

I'm not sure of the to(we)r of joy Ned brought down is really in Dorne. If we really go all out and forcefully piece our tors, Glastonburys and so on together ... the tower of joy is on the Isle of Faces and Ned brought the bloody tower down. That would be a twist for sure. 

At least the Isle of Faces is a related location to Harrenhal and the Queen of Love and Beauty. It would also be a good location to hide Lyanna on an magic Island. It would also connect the ignored kingsguard Whent to the entire story.

Other than that it is Dorne I guess. 

Certainly GRRM seems to have sprinkled some Arthurian legend into his story. I have wondered about Ser Arthur and Ashara playing the roles of Arthur and Morgana, at least in some crooked echo of their legend. But the concept of Glastonbury Tor being such an important part of Arthur's legend, being that is where his body is said to be buried and lying in wait to rise again could certainly play a role in what might have happened in Ned's toj fever dream. If Arthur was killed and buried by Ned on this tor, then it could mimic King Arthur's rumored resting place. The connection you have made to Avalon being the location of Glastonbury Tor and on a mythological island does perhaps hint to us that the location we are searching for could be the Isle of Faces.

In Ned's dream he see's the red mountains of Dorne in the background, but perhaps what he really seen was the red canopy of the great weirwood grove that is supposed to exist on the Isle of Faces! Blue is another strong color in Ned's dream, blue attributed to eyes of death or rose petals blowing across the sky, but could the blue be the water around the Isle. As was pointed out upthread, Arya see's the God's Eye as "a sheet of sun-hammered blue".

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

What if the wierwoods are all connected and the horn can make them move?  This could be how The Hammer of Waters worked, how the horn can bring down The Wall, and explains waking giants and sleepers in the Earth.

Whomping weirwoods rises again!

18 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The concept of stopping time so a pregnancy and birth that would take 9 months all happens in one day is also very interesting, especially since passage of time seems to be so important in our story, as The Dagda did with the birth of another son, Aengus (Oengus?). The terminology I found was that he "stopped the sun from setting for nine months". We might have a mirror to that in a power stopping the sun from rising for a length of time which perhaps became known as the Long Night!

 

I have suggested before that the reason why the latest summer had lasted 10 years was for Bran's benefit. Bloodraven looked for him and when he found him he prolonged summer so Bran could grow up, but then decided immediate intervention was necessary, so Meera and Jojen were sent to fetch him. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I would agree that the weirwood root system should hold an island in place! Do you suppose the Green Men are actually like Coldhands, enlisted to protect a large weirwood grove? 

It's very possible that they are bound in some way, as it seems that Coldhands is. Is there something north and south of the wall that makes them appear different, or could our greenmen simply dress in green but have black hands, just like Coldhands?

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The text lists Bran as the winged and chained wolf, so he's likely Fenrir.

I sometimes think Jojen is wrong when he thinks that Bran is the wolf he is supposed to free. Over on LH we have discussed this, and Lady, Ghost, and Shaggydog are the wolves that actually get "chained" in our story. Summer is locked in the godswood with Shaggy, and that gate is held with chains, but he is never chained himself. Arya and Sansa have winged wolf imagery in their story, although Bran is the climber.  I wonder if it's not Bran that is intended to be this winged wolf or chained wolf, but one or two of the other Stark children. I am not sold on this, but I have thought about it quite a bit. It's part of my "if it seems to easily implied, it's probably wrong" glasses that I have started to look at this story through. Granted, I might be making things far to complicated ...

 

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have suggested before that the reason why the latest summer had lasted 10 years was for Bran's benefit. Bloodraven looked for him and when he found him he prolonged summer so Bran could grow up, but then decided immediate intervention was necessary, so Meera and Jojen were sent to fetch him. 

This is an interesting idea. Does it fit Bran's age all that well, though. Bran is seven at the start of the story, and summer is nine years going on ten. So, Bran's conception, birth and life all fit in eight years. Although Bran certainly has summer imagery all around him. But Arya, is nine at the start of our story, so her conception, birth and life fit within that 9-10 year frame as well. Arya has more winter child imagery around her, so it doesn't make sense that she would need to "germinate" in the summer, but her age fit's a bit better. 

The idea of halting a day or night cycle is interesting and could very easily fit the concept of halting a winter/summer cycle!

[SirArthur]

16 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is an interesting idea. Does it fit Bran's age all that well, though. Bran is seven at the start of the story, and summer is nine years going on ten. So, Bran's conception, birth and life all fit in eight years. Although Bran certainly has summer imagery all around him. But Arya, is nine at the start of our story, so her conception, birth and life fit within that 9-10 year frame as well. Arya has more winter child imagery around her, so it doesn't make sense that she would need to "germinate" in the summer, but her age fit's a bit better. 

Arya and Bran are both referred to as "summer child" in the books. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I've thought about The Horn of Winter and The Hammer of Waters and the wierwoods.  What if the wierwoods are all connected and the horn can make them move?  This could be how The Hammer of Waters worked, how the horn can bring down The Wall, and explains waking giants and sleepers in the Earth.

I have wondered if the tree's that might move in our story are the sentinel's and the soldier pines. Those tree's keep getting mentions, and I recently reread The Wayward Bride and those tree's play a role and make Asha very uncomfortable.

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I cannot go home, she thought, but I dare not stay here much longer. The quiet of the woods unnerved her. Asha had spent her life on islands and on ships. The sea was never silent. The sound of the waves washing against a rocky shore was in her blood, but there were no waves at Deepwood Motte … only the trees, the endless trees, soldier pines and sentinels, beech and ash and ancient oaks, chestnut trees and ironwoods and firs. The sound they made was softer than the sea, and she heard it only when the wind was blowing; then the sighing seemed to come from all around her, as if the trees were whispering to one another in some language that she could not understand.

 

Tonight the whispering seemed louder than before. A rush of dead brown leaves, Asha told herself, bare branches creaking in the wind. She turned away from the window, away from the woods.  ADWD-The Wayward Bride

 

She notes the trees and is made uneasy by them.

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"To the walls," Asha Greyjoy told her men. She turned her own steps for the watchtower, with Tris Botley right behind her.

 

The wooden watchtower was the tallest thing this side of the mountains, rising twenty feet above the biggest sentinels and soldier pines in the surrounding woods. "There, Captain," said Cromm, when she made the platform. Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors. ADWD-The Wayward Bride

 

Of course, there are men coming out of those tree's, dressed in leaves and sticks and attacking, but the imagery is of the tree's attacking, the tree's as the warriors.

Even as she prepares to fight men, she notes that "the tree's were huge and dark, somehow threatening". I think these tree's are associated with the old gods, the gods of forest and stream and stone, the gods of the north and neck.

I think that the weirwoods role is as a watcher, or a part of the communication that needs to happen to get us to our conclusion, but if there are tree's that move and fight and cause unease and fear, I think it's the soldier pines and sentinels, perhaps all the tree's that Asha mentions, including oaks and ironwoods, beech and ash and fir and chestnuts.

But I  like the idea of the Horn of Winter actually controlling these tree's. I suppose it could be a red herring in the story, but it seems to important to Mance. I think he is looking for this horn in the crypts. But I wonder if he truly knows what it might control?

 

 

[St Daga]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is an interesting idea. Does it fit Bran's age all that well, though. Bran is seven at the start of the story, and summer is nine years going on ten. So, Bran's conception, birth and life all fit in eight years. Although Bran certainly has summer imagery all around him. But Arya, is nine at the start of our story, so her conception, birth and life fit within that 9-10 year frame as well. Arya has more winter child imagery around her, so it doesn't make sense that she would need to "germinate" in the summer, but her age fit's a bit better. 

Arya and Bran are both referred to as "summer child" in the books. 

Yes, it is Ned that tells Arya that she was born in the long summer, and summer is the time for petty squabbles and games, but in winter, these things must be put aside for the good of the pack. 

Looking at Arya and summer connections, I noticed in the text that the phrase "smooth as summer silk" is given to us 5 times in Arya's storyline. The only other time that phrase is used is from Sam's POV in relation to Ulmer (late of the Kingswood Brotherhood) and a damn fine archer. This is in relation to Ulmer's bow skills. I need to think on this possible connection for a bit,

However, as far as "summer child", I see it attributed to Bran twice in the text (once from Old Nan and once from Jojen) and once to Shireen. I might be missing a nod to Arya, however.

Just for shit's and giggles, I  looked for "winter child" in the text and the only hit is from the World Book, in relation to Gael, the youngest child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. A Targaryen winter child? Does that somehow show us a inverse of a Stark "summer child"?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

It's very possible that they are bound in some way, as it seems that Coldhands is. Is there something north and south of the wall that makes them appear different, or could our greenmen simply dress in green but have black hands, just like Coldhands?

 

If the Green Men were initiated to protect the weirwoods, and I'm under the impression "the Pact", then they would have to be thousands of years old! So a Coldhands type creature seems a logical conclusion. The weirwoods see and remember all, so those memories hold the facts and everything that men have forgotten.

49 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Of course, there are men coming out of those tree's, dressed in leaves and sticks and attacking, but the imagery is of the tree's attacking, the tree's as the warriors.

The Children of the Forest had their own warriors in the woods - the wood dancers.

34 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Just for shit's and giggles, I  looked for "winter child" in the text and the only hit is from the World Book, in relation to Gael, the youngest child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. A Targaryen winter child? Does that somehow show us a inverse of a Stark "summer child"?

It makes sense to me for an opposing force to keep the other side in check. So the fire of the Targaryens keeps the ice in check - thus the winter child, and the summer child keeps the fire in check. But, it seems to me that the Targaryens comped this winter child position and took it from the Starks.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I've thought about The Horn of Winter and The Hammer of Waters and the wierwoods.  What if the wierwoods are all connected and the horn can make them move?  This could be how The Hammer of Waters worked, how the horn can bring down The Wall, and explains waking giants and sleepers in the Earth.

I was thinking about this a bit while I was feeding my horses and the idea of the wall coming down in connection to the Horn of Winter, which is the concept we are given from Ygritte and Mance. And your idea of the Horn actually being what could make a weirwood move along with an idea I came across in theories over the years that weirwood's lie at the base of the wall. Putting these idea's together does make some sense, if the weirwoods at the base of the wall move enough to fracture the ice structure that is the wall. Even though my gut tells me it's different tree's that will move or walk, the idea of the weirwood's and their power can't be forgotten.

Are there any indications in the text of the weirwoods moving? I mostly remember the idea's that they whisper and watch, but maybe I have missed some imagery r/t the weirwoods. 

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Children of the Forest had their own warriors in the woods - the wood dancers.

Thanks for this reminder. The CotF seem to be separated into two groups, the greenseer's and the wood dancers. And the wood dancer's seem to be the warriors of the children.

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Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

 

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. AGOT-Bran VII

 

When thinking about the destruction of tree's, one would think fire is just as damaging as chopping it down, but according to this statement, it seems that the CotF where only concerned with the weirwoods being chopped down. Why does the pact not include a clause on no more burning of tree's. Is is possible that fire to the tree's did not concern the CotF? That seems odd to me.

 

 

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What does seem to be accurate from all the tales, however, is that the First Men soon came to war with the children of the forest. Unlike the children, the First Men farmed the land and raised up ringforts and villages. And in so doing, they took to chopping down the weirwood trees, including those with carved faces, and for this, the children attacked them, leading to hundreds of years of war. The First Men—who had brought with them strange gods, horses, cattle, and weapons of bronze—were also larger and stronger than the children, and so they were a significant threat.

 

The hunters among the children—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act.

 

Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. TWOIAF-Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

 

So, this passage from the world book seems to indicate that it was the hunters of the children, also called the wood dancers, who also became their warriors. And it gives them credit for secret arts of tree and leaf. What were those arts? The rest of the passage implies that the greenseer's called the beasts of the forest to fight on their behalf. So, what did the wood dancers cause the tree's and leaves to do?

Just a quick look at wood and dancer in a word search brings up Dancer and Bran in the forest, and again later in the text Bran thinks of Dancer and wants to weep. It is also from Bran's POV that we learn of the wood dancer's. Why did Bran decide to name Dancer what he did? Did Dancer die, burned to death in the fire of the Winterfell stable?

Jon also has a connection to wood and dancing, but it is in regards to the flames dancing on the wood of the fire that he builds just before he and Qhorin are captured by the wildlings. Fire is associated with dancing fairly often in our text, so perhaps there is some method to Mel's insistence on the burning of weirwoods. Maybe? I don't know. Dany also see's dancer's in the flames of Drogo's pyre. Does fire have something to do with wood dancing? What if it wasn't the First Men who burned the weirwoods, what if it was the CotF trying to work magic. It makes me think of the Blackwood's dead weirwood, and also House Marbrand, which has a sigil of a burning tree.

Could there be some great magic that would be worked if Jon did burn the weirwood at Winterfell? (I don't like this line of thought much but ...)

And Sansa has an interesting passage related to wood and dancing:

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Thankfully, it was time to change again. Her legs had turned to wood, though, and Lord Rowan, Ser Tallad, and Elinor's squire all must have thought her a very clumsy dancer. And then she was back with Ser Garlan once more, and soon, blessedly, the dance was over.

 

Her relief was short-lived. No sooner had the music died than she heard Joffrey say, "It's time to bed them! Let's get the clothes off her, and have a look at what the she-wolf's got to give my uncle!" Other men took up the cry, loudly. ASOS-Sansa III

 

I am not quite sure what to make of this. The idea that her legs had turned to wood and that made her a clumsy dancer is interesting if looking at the concept of wood and dancing and the children. Sansa is different from her siblings for many reasons, but first and foremost, she lost her wolf at a very early and developmental stage. So, Sansa might not have the same warging/skinchanging/greenseer abilities as her siblings (BTW, I think she could be a decent skinchanger and greenseer, but that is for a different post), so if the CotF are split into two groups, the greenseer's and the wood dancers, and for the sake of this arguement, Sansa cannot be a greenseer, then does that leave her role to be that of a wood dancer?

It is interesting that she seems to feel safe (less of a clumsy dancer, less wood-legged, perhaps) when she dances with Garlan. Garlan the Gallant, who is associated with Highgarden, which is associated with the Gardner Kings. Garlan who wore Renly's green armor and antlered helm, a representation of the green man/wicker man that is sometimes burned in effigy to keep the summer winter cycle intact in neopagan religion. And perhaps the green man and wicker man are not necessarily connected, but for the sake of this, I am going to connect them.

I am not sure where my mind is even going with these thoughts, but does this somehow connect Sansa to the burning of tree's? Hopefully not being burned!  Or does it connect to Jon or Bran? Or of Garlen (who steps into Renly's shoes) being some kind of sacrifice? Also, this makes me think of the fallen torch in the crypts lighting up the legs of the statue of Brandon Stark, which has always struck me as odd, since it was Rickard that burned and not Brandon. Perhaps Aerys chose the wrong Stark to give to the flames?

We have three people noted in the text with copper hair. Sansa is one. Melisandre, who is a fire priestess and who is associated with burning weirwood branches as well as rumored to have burned the weirwood at Storms End, is another. And Ser Addam Marbrand, who has copper hair and a family sigil related to a burning tree. Does that copper hair hint related to burning tree's?

Again, I am not sure what to make of any of these thoughts. Just thinking on the fly with the connections I am seeing. Or possibly seeing!

[Janneyc1]

40 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I was thinking about this a bit while I was feeding my horses and the idea of the wall coming down in connection to the Horn of Winter, which is the concept we are given from Ygritte and Mance. And your idea of the Horn actually being what could make a weirwood move along with an idea I came across in theories over the years that weirwood's lie at the base of the wall. Putting these idea's together does make some sense, if the weirwoods at the base of the wall move enough to fracture the ice structure that is the wall. Even though my gut tells me it's different tree's that will move or walk, the idea of the weirwood's and their power can't be forgotten.

Are there any indications in the text of the weirwoods moving? I mostly remember the idea's that they whisper and watch, but maybe I have missed some imagery r/t the weirwoods.

I don't think that the weirwoods are in the base of the Wall. It just isn't a place that you would expect them. I do think that the Horn of Winter would break the Wall. But my thoughts are that there is a dragon(s) in the base of the Wall and that the Horn will awake them. Here's the description:

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The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.

And here is the description of Dragon Binder: 

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The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.

These are similar horns so I would expect that they perform in a similar fashion. Controlling Dragons. 

[Tucu]

58 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Are there any indications in the text of the weirwoods moving? I mostly remember the idea's that they whisper and watch, but maybe I have missed some imagery r/t the weirwoods.

We are told that the trees root, grow and die in one place

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Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.”

 

[Brad Stark]

I never meant to suggest wierwoods would get up and walk around like Ents.  If they are all connected, and their roots run under everything, and could break a land bridge or bring down the Wall just by moving a few centimeters and the part above ground wouldn't need to move at all. 

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Isle of Faces is unusual in that hardly anyone ever goes there, and no one tried to conquer or claim it.  It isn't taboo or off limits as no one makes a big deal about Howland going there and we have seen battles fought there.  And we've seen very little of the green men or their interactions with the rest of the world. 

I kind of wonder if GRRM slipped in a subtle hint that Beric visited the Isle:

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They learned that Lord Beric had ten starvelings with him, or else a hundred mounted knights; that he had ridden west, or north, or south; that he had crossed the lake in a boat; that he was strong as an aurochs or weak from the bloody flux.

37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I never meant to suggest wierwoods would get up and walk around like Ents.  If they are all connected, and their roots run under everything, and could break a land bridge or bring down the Wall just by moving a few centimeters and the part above ground wouldn't need to move at all. 

If the Weirwoods created the White Walkers than perhaps that could be analogous to getting up and walking like an Ent:

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At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. 

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Hodor knew Bran's favorite place, so he took him to the edge of the pool beneath the great spread of the heart tree, where Lord Eddard used to kneel to pray.  Ripples were running across the surface of the water when they arrived, making the reflection of the weirwood shimmer and dance.

 

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The woods gave answer; the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

The Others made no sound.

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The Other slid forward on silent feet.  In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen.  No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade.  It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.  There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely.  "Dance with me then."