Heresy 212 The Wolves

[Tucu]

30 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ah, just so. Lyanna was 12 when Domeric was born if the wiki has both of their birth years correct.

A simple explanation: Domeric was not racing with Lyanna, but with the daugther of another Lord Rickard, Alys Karstark

Quote

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

 

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

That is one of the parts of the timeline that don't seem to jive. The rebellion ended in 283, and most accounts put Lyanna's death around this time. Although I have speculated that Lyanna did live much longer than most people think, but I have not one bit of proof for that. If she was racing Domeric in 288, then her death clearly wasn't aligned with the timeline of the rebellion. I have chased this idea of Domeric and Lyanna racing around in my head for years, with no satisfactory answer. 

Whoops, wrong rebellion. I had the dates mixed up in my head. My bad.

[alienarea]

Did it ever occur to you that a large part of heresy discussions exists because the author is sloppy with timelines, distances and remains vague on purpose?

[Matthew.]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oooohhh-kaaaayyy. Why does everyone keep saying that Ghost cannot sense Summer when the dream passage specifically says that he can??? There is a difference in being able to "sense" and being able to "skinchange, the latter is something that I DO think the Wall blocks, but sensing is possible. 

JNR addressed this, but it is worth revisiting the first passage:

Quote

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. 

(note that, at this time, Jon knows Sansa to be alive and in KL, so whether or not he can "sense" her should have no bearing on the number. the absence is Lady, because this is a passage about wolves, not about Starks)

Anyway, as to the bolded, note the distinction between what is happening here, and the comparative clarity in ADWD; here, Ghost is beyond the Wall, so he has lost his connection to his siblings. In ADWD, he can describe in detail what they are doing at a given moment, because he has regained his connection--save for Summer, whom he can only describe vaguely as being beyond the Wall, because as JNR said, that was where Ghost last felt Summer before moving back south. Ghost knows only where Summer is, not what he is doing.

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Four plus one equals five! If the white wolf said four remained, BUT one (of them) the white wolf could no longer sense - then the count would be four, but that's not what it says - it says AND. "And" and "but" are two very distinctive words that completely change the meaning of the sentence. "And" means "in addition", whereas "but" means there is an exception. 

To alter or contradict a preceding clause is a valid use of "and," a use that works particularly well if you're expanding on a negative sentiment.

EG, "Of the six apples I bought, only four remain, and one's looking a little rotten." 

The additional sentiment that one of the four can no longer be sensed is being understood in the broader context that "once they had been six;" furthermore, language is fluid, so this would be an argument predicated upon you and GRRM agreeing upon the concrete usage of "and."
 

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The information regarding the black brother that killed a goat, and who was also injured by the goat's "horn" is speculative, but not out of the question.

This, in a nutshell, is why the interpretation is not convincing--the bolded is basically conceding that the Rickon part is an afterthought, that maybe it can be made to work, rather than being an interpretation that works intuitively. 

And, since I can't repeat it enough, I'm just really baffled as to why one would present an ostensibly symbolic interpretation, then insist on the narrowest form of symbolism possible--like, it's so much more flexible to say "this dream is about the direwolves and symbolizes their corresponding Stark," instead of insisting it isn't about the direwolves at all.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

A simple explanation: Domeric was not racing with Lyanna, but with the daugther of another Lord Rickard, Alys Karstark

And this might also imply that at some point Domeric and Alys were being introduced together for a possible future marriage alliance.  Until Ramsay mucks everything up.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To alter or contradict a preceding clause is a valid use of "and," a use that works particularly well if you're expanding on a negative sentiment.

EG, "Of the six apples I bought, only four remain, and one's looking a little rotten." 

The additional sentiment that one of the four can no longer be sensed is being understood in the broader context that "once they had been six;"

Exactly so, this is how I have always read this passage

[LynnS]

On 8/21/2018 at 8:12 AM, PrettyPig said:

This is good stuff...and totally in line with the ever- growing pile of subtle hints that our very old First Men came from a society of underground dwellers/moon-night-shadow-darkness worshippers.   

I want to come back to Cerberus and the idea of hellhounds guarding the entrance to the Underworld—also returning to the discussion of the TOJ and the idea of sacrificial transformation.  Cerberus stands guard at the far end of the River Styx , but of course those entering the land of the dead must deal with the near end first...and that has a nifty nod in the story too.   Will post from work later.

This brings to mind Simeon Star-Eyes who once visited the Nightfort and saw the hellhounds fighting.  The Black Gate would be the passage to the underworld (under the sea).  It's not only a physical passage but I suspect also the middle head of three-headed Trios,  I think Bran accesses the power of the Wall at the Gate to contact Ghost-Jon as Tree-Bran since Bran and Jon are separated by the Wall at this point.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

The Stark line is said to be 8,000 years old, also the wall but the text never claims how old Winterfell is. I do think the World Book states that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the long night, which is said to be 8,000 years ago. It's possible that the forest that became the godswood existed long before the castle.

The STARK line is 8000 years old....I wonder what they were/who inhabited the area of Winterfell before they became Starks?

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"-William Shakespeare 

You make a good point. Perhaps if someone built Winterfell, they were the same blood as the Stark's, only known by a different name. Rather like we have the Durrandon/Storm King line living on with the Baratheon name. Same blood, different name! The Winter King's, perhaps living on with the Stark name?

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bingo. Exactomundo. The enemy was “otherized” which makes it easier to torture, imprison, and kill them.

We are already seeing this during the last few decades. Dragons, lions, wolfs, stags, weasels all classified by some groups as evil. With the long winter this will get a lot worse specially if the WW become a tool of the northern houses and the dragons finally arrive.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Othor and Jafer didn't pass on their own two feet. They were dragged across. Coldhands told Sam he could not pass.

I suppose this is splitting hairs, but they still crossed the wall, whether they walked or were carried. 

Jafer was noted to have "blue, blue eyes" when they first found his body, and Dywen claims that Othor "never had no blue eyes afore", and Jaremy Rykker remembers that Jafer didn't either. But they had blue eyes before they were brought across the wall, which indicates that they were wighted before they came south of the wall.

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I had thought I remembered a passage where it was said the collapsed levels had an iron gate across the entrance, but I cannot find right now.

The other day on LH, I swore up and down that Robert Arryn's eyes are noted to be blue by Catelyn, but when I went to find it in the text, I could not. Sometimes my head canon is stronger than the text! I'm still looking for those blue eyes, however... 

On a quick glance I found iron gates in tunnels under the ground in three places. Castle Black, the Red Keep and the House of Black and White. Also, an iron gate at ground level leads to tunnels under the Wolf's Den in White Harbor. That probably doesn't help with what you are looking for, however.

As you pointed out, there is an iron connection in the crypts of Winterfell, most especially with the iron swords.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

A simple explanation: Domeric was not racing with Lyanna, but with the daugther of another Lord Rickard, Alys Karstark

I have debated about this possibility for Roose Bolton's words. It is possible, but some how seems forced. However, GRRM is capable of this kind of subtle trickery and might be in this case. And Alys does outrun Cregan Karstark, so her being a decent rider is set up in the text. The only thing that doesn't fit is the "and that one was half a horse herself". Alys Karstark is never noted for being half a horse, or a centaur, while Lyanna Stark is. And Roose says "was" in reference to Lord Rickards daughter. Past tense, which hints that she no longer lives, or can no longer ride with such skill. 

 

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I suppose this is splitting hairs, but they still crossed the wall, whether they walked or were carried. 

Jafer was noted to have "blue, blue eyes" when they first found his body, and Dywen claims that Othor "never had no blue eyes afore", and Jaremy Rykker remembers that Jafer didn't either. But they had blue eyes before they were brought across the wall, which indicates that they were wighted before they came south of the wall.

There is a well-established European tradition that if a place is warded against things that go bump in the night they cannot pass - unless invited or carried in, which is exactly what happened with Othor and Jafer.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

JNR addressed this, but it is worth revisiting the first passage:

(note that, at this time, Jon knows Sansa to be alive and in KL, so whether or not he can "sense" her should have no bearing on the number. the absence is Lady, because this is a passage about wolves, not about Starks)

Anyway, as to the bolded, note the distinction between what is happening here, and the comparative clarity in ADWD; here, Ghost is beyond the Wall, so he has lost his connection to his siblings. In ADWD, he can describe in detail what they are doing at a given moment, because he has regained his connection--save for Summer, whom he can only describe vaguely as being beyond the Wall, because as JNR said, that was where Ghost last felt Summer before moving back south. Ghost knows only where Summer is, not what he is doing.

To alter or contradict a preceding clause is a valid use of "and," a use that works particularly well if you're expanding on a negative sentiment.

EG, "Of the six apples I bought, only four remain, and one's looking a little rotten." 

The additional sentiment that one of the four can no longer be sensed is being understood in the broader context that "once they had been six;" furthermore, language is fluid, so this would be an argument predicated upon you and GRRM agreeing upon the concrete usage of "and."
 

This, in a nutshell, is why the interpretation is not convincing--the bolded is basically conceding that the Rickon part is an afterthought, that maybe it can be made to work, rather than being an interpretation that works intuitively. 

And, since I can't repeat it enough, I'm just really baffled as to why one would present an ostensibly symbolic interpretation, then insist on the narrowest form of symbolism possible--like, it's so much more flexible to say "this dream is about the direwolves and symbolizes their corresponding Stark," instead of insisting it isn't about the direwolves at all.

While i appreciate the grammar lesson on the use of the word "and", I feel pretty confident that I'm interpreting this correctly. 

The first dream set the precedence for the second dream, and in the first dream Jon dreamt of himself as being the white wolf, and I believe Jon was dreaming about himself as the white wolf again in the second dream. Are you saying that Ghost actually sniffed a weirwood sapling that looked like Bran, and who called him Jon?

The word "remain" can have multiple meanings other than "continue to exist". It can also mean to continue to possess a particular quality or fulfill a particular role. My interpretation of "four remain" is that only Jon, Rickon, Arya, and Bran "remain" or continue to possess warg or skinchanging abilities, whereas Sansa does not.  

You don't have to agree with me, but obviously my explanations seem to bother you a great deal. This forum is supposed to be fun, but it's not fun to be talked down to. Why don't we agree to disagree and move on?

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

A simple explanation: Domeric was not racing with Lyanna, but with the daugther of another Lord Rickard, Alys Karstark

And this might also imply that at some point Domeric and Alys were being introduced together for a possible future marriage alliance.  Until Ramsay mucks everything up.

It'a hard to say how long Alys and Daryn Hornwood were engaged for. All she says is before the war. It's possible that her father was shopping her around to all the great houses in the north as a bride. Still, Alys is never referred to as "half a horse", that phrasing seems to tie back to the centaurish Lyanna Stark.

Although, I don't find Alys or her story entirely trustworthy. Perhaps Karstark has been in cahoots with Bolton for a long time.

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

22 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I suppose this is splitting hairs, but they still crossed the wall, whether they walked or were carried. 

Jafer was noted to have "blue, blue eyes" when they first found his body, and Dywen claims that Othor "never had no blue eyes afore", and Jaremy Rykker remembers that Jafer didn't either. But they had blue eyes before they were brought across the wall, which indicates that they were wighted before they came south of the wall.

There is a well-established European tradition that if a place is warded against things that go bump in the night they cannot pass - unless invited or carried in, which is exactly what happened with Othor and Jafer.

You make a good point. This does make some sense of the situation, since it's seems like they were wighted before they were carried across. Like vampires having to be invited into private homes but have the capability of strolling into a public establishment sans invitation! The magic of the wall might be subverted by the invite. Which might be similar to how Melisandre is finally able to enter Storms End. She was invited by Stannis, who now held the castle after Ser Cortney's death. 

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have debated about this possibility for Roose Bolton's words. It is possible, but some how seems forced. However, GRRM is capable of this kind of subtle trickery and might be in this case. And Alys does outrun her great uncle Arnolf, so her being a decent rider is set up in the text. The only thing that doesn't fit is the "and that one was half a horse herself". Alys Karstark is never noted for being half a horse, or a centaur, while Lyanna Stark is. And Roose says "was" in reference to Lord Rickards daughter. Past tense, which hints that she no longer lives, or can no longer ride with such skill. 

 

Maybe it is a bit odd, but it is not the only time that Bolton used "Lord Rickard" as a direct reference to Lord Karstark:

Quote

"After the scratch the Young Wolf gave Lord Rickard, that may be somewhat less true than formerly. Be that as it may. Lord Stannis has taken Deepwood Motte from the ironmen and restored it to House Glover. Worse, the mountain clans have joined him, Wull and Norrey and Liddle and the rest. His strength is growing."

Quote

Bolton chewed another chunk of meat. "Karhold is smaller and meaner than Harrenhal, but it lies well beyond the reach of the lion's claws. Once wed to Alys Karstark, Hoat might be a lord in truth. If he could collect some gold from your father so much the better, but he would have delivered you to Lord Rickard no matter how much Lord Tywin paid

Others had used the same expression.

[Brad Stark]

What is the significance of Domeric's age?  We have some evidence he's as much as 10 years older than some readers think.  But he's still a minor character dead before the story started who only exists to show what kind of person Ramsey is. 

[Janneyc1]

Just now, Brad Stark said:

What is the significance of Domeric's age?  We have some evidence he's as much as 10 years older than some readers think.  But he's still a minor character dead before the story started who only exists to show what kind of person Ramsey is. 

There is some partial speculation that Domeric may have been the guy that carried off Lyanna. Sounds Tinfoily, but it might have worked. 

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You make a good point. This does make some sense of the situation, since it's seems like they were wighted before they were carried across. Like vampires having to be invited into private homes but have the capability of strolling into a public establishment sans invitation! The magic of the wall might be subverted by the invite. Which might be similar to how Melisandre is finally able to enter Storms End. She was invited by Stannis, who now held the castle after Ser Cortney's death. 

Davos dutifully did the deed, because Stannis wanted her smuggled in. 

[Brad Stark]

15 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

There is some partial speculation that Domeric may have been the guy that carried off Lyanna. Sounds Tinfoily, but it might have worked. 

There is tinfoily speculation for every single character in the story carrying off Lyanna.  Any specific reason to suspect Domeric instead of Quaith or Marwyn?