The Illyrio/Aegon thing

[Megorova]

GRRM said, that Bittersteel didn't had children. Which doesn't mean, that his wife, Calla Blackfyre, also didn't had any children. She could have given birth to numerous bastards, while her husband was away on his constant wars. But because they were still in a marriage, legally those children could have became Bittersteel's successors in Golden Company, after Aegor's death, even though they were not his biological children. And there's other daughter of Daemon I Blackfyre, and there's who knows how many other Blackfyre females from later generations, and each of them could have been Varys' and Serra's mother, and fAegon's ancestor.

Personally I think, that fAegon is grandson of Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, that had a child with one of Selmys from Harvest Hall, between crowning of Aegon V and Fourth Rebellion of Blackfyres - Barristan Selmy, half-Blackfyre. And fAegon is his son with Septa Lemore, who may be Lady Jayne Swann.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

Yes the chances are better. He is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna 

[Bael's Bastard]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys' parentage is sort of another matter. Our favorite eunuch most definitely didn't father Prince Aegon.

GRRM's revelation that he doesn't think Bittersteel had any children is pertinent to some theories about Varys's parentage. I don't see where anyone suggested that Varys fathered AeGriff.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It could be interesting, but Aerion's son is never mentioned again after ACoK, or is he? But the Blackfyres are.

And considering Maegor's age I only see a chance for Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being an illegitimate descendant of Maegor's - not a legitimate son or daughter. The Iron Throne would have to be completely stupid not to connect Varys or Illyrio to Maegor.

I don't believe Aerion's son is explicitly mentioned again. Aemon brings up the Great Council again in ADWD when he tells Jon what he told Egg, but doesn't mention Aerion's son there. TWOIAF finally brought him back up, and gave him a name, as well as two Targaryen parents and an Arryn grandmother. I suspect GRRM might have had more in mind for Aerion's descendants before introduced Aegon IV's bastards and the Blackfyre stuff. Not sure if any of that will become pertinent in the main story, though I hope we eventually find out more in Dunk and Egg.

[Starkz]

Either way Dany will end up killing him ruining any good PR she could of had in Westeros.

[Bael's Bastard]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

GRRM said, that Bittersteel didn't had children. Which doesn't mean, that his wife, Calla Blackfyre, also didn't had any children. She could have given birth to numerous bastards, while her husband was away on his constant wars. But because they were still in a marriage, legally those children could have became Bittersteel's successors in Golden Company, after Aegor's death, even though they were not his biological children. And there's other daughter of Daemon I Blackfyre, and there's who knows how many other Blackfyre females from later generations, and each of them could have been Varys' and Serra's mother, and fAegon's ancestor.

Personally I think, that fAegon is grandson of Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, that had a child with one of Selmys from Harvest Hall, between crowning of Aegon V and Fourth Rebellion of Blackfyres - Barristan Selmy, half-Blackfyre. And fAegon is his son with Septa Lemore, who may be Lady Jayne Swann.

Disappointing as it is, GRRM's statement rules out the possibility that Bittersteel had legal children (unless he changes his mind), and makes it highly unlikely that Calla had any legally legitimate children.

There are plenty of Blackfyre descendants, identified and unidentified, that Varys and/or AeGriff could be descended from, no need for convoluted theories.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Disappointing as it is, GRRM's statement rules out the possibility that Bittersteel had legal children (unless he changes his mind), and makes it highly unlikely that Calla had any legally legitimate children.

Also, the response “I don’t think so” means that, even if he does change his mind, the idea that a major plot twist was planned which involves someone being Bittersteel’s descendent, is completely ruled out.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GRRM's revelation that he doesn't think Bittersteel had any children is pertinent to some theories about Varys's parentage. I don't see where anyone suggested that Varys fathered AeGriff.

Of course not, but my idea was that Illyrio might - and thus Aegon, too - was descended from both Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel, explaining why Illyrio controls the Golden Company (which he does, not Varys).

Varys is another story. I think he should have some connection to Westeros/the Targaryens to explain why he cares, but since Varys has nothing to do with Aegon's parentage he could have a completely different ancestry story than Aegon/Illyrio.

21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't believe Aerion's son is explicitly mentioned again. Aemon brings up the Great Council again in ADWD when he tells Jon what he told Egg, but doesn't mention Aerion's son there. TWOIAF finally brought him back up, and gave him a name, as well as two Targaryen parents and an Arryn grandmother. I suspect GRRM might have had more in mind for Aerion's descendants before introduced Aegon IV's bastards and the Blackfyre stuff. Not sure if any of that will become pertinent in the main story, though I hope we eventually find out more in Dunk and Egg.

George had to give names to various Targaryens in TWoIaF. Not just Prince Maegor but also Rhaegel's children and Daeron's lackwit daughter. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are important.

Daemon Blackfyre's seven sons, on the other hand, have always been an obvious way to establish multiple branches of the Blackfyre line. The twins and Daemon II don't have any children (it seems) but Haegon had sons, and if Aenys and the two unnamed younger sons also had children then the Blackfyre tree could be rather convoluted by the time Maelys dies - especially if Aenys and the younger sons had no sons of their own - or much more daughters.

One assumes George is just going to tell us Varys/Illyrio/Aegon's back story out of whole new cloth without giving us a lot of hints in previously published materials.

In fact, it might even be that Calla Blackfyre never married Bittersteel. It was just a promise made by Daemon Blackfyre - who knows what happened in exile? Did Bittersteel still want her? Did Rohanne of Tyrosh and her family want the girl to marry her uncle? Did she end up marrying Haegon Blackfyre? We don't know.

However, we should not take that quote of George's as gospel. It might be that he didn't have children - or that he didn't want to tell that he had children and thus threw out such a line. Or he might now think about how children of Bittersteel's could actually enrich the story.

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Also, the response “I don’t think so” means that, even if he does change his mind, the idea that a major plot twist was planned which involves someone being Bittersteel’s descendent, is completely ruled out.

This is certainly correct.

However, people who think some strange family tree constellations were always planned ahead in advance was always silly. Just look at the tweaks at the Targaryen family tree over the years, including the new revelations for FaB.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

There's nothing barring Illyrio from being some descendant of this Blackfyre female line. Put Aegon Targaryen on the throne and rule through him. I'm assuming we will find out what Illyrio's wants once Aegon is sitting the throne.

I'm personally not sure that Varys is anything special. The guy is Lyseni. I don't think anyone would blink an eye Varys turned out to be a silver-blond haired, purple eyed man because of where he is originally from. Lys is a hotbed for people who look like that because the blood of Old Valyria runs strong there.

In any case, I think the reason Varys may have undermined Rhaegar's plans for a great council is because of the old powers and prophecies sort of come with their own kind of magic and Varys hates magic since he was cut. 

[Starkz]

Young Griff could’ve just been a random child taken from Lys. 

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Also, the response “I don’t think so” means that, even if he does change his mind, the idea that a major plot twist was planned which involves someone being Bittersteel’s descendent, is completely ruled out.

Very good point.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course not, but my idea was that Illyrio might - and thus Aegon, too - was descended from both Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel, explaining why Illyrio controls the Golden Company (which he does, not Varys).

Varys is another story. I think he should have some connection to Westeros/the Targaryens to explain why he cares, but since Varys has nothing to do with Aegon's parentage he could have a completely different ancestry story than Aegon/Illyrio.

That would have been interesting, but unnecessary to explain why he controls the Golden Company. It is enough for him to be descended from Daemon alone. But even if he is descended from Daemon through a female line, an explanation is still needed to explain why, or at least how, he controls the Golden Company today, and at what point he received or asserted control over it.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

George had to give names to various Targaryens in TWoIaF. Not just Prince Maegor but also Rhaegel's children and Daeron's lackwit daughter. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are important.

Whether Maegor, or possible descendants of his, will turn out to be important remains to be seen. But he/they have the potential to be important, or at least interesting, because Maegor was the legitimate son of Maekar's second son and Rhaegel's surviving daughter, but was passed over for Maekar's youngest son. 

[Megorova]

How about this tinfoil? -> Varys is son of Aerys and Rhaella, and he was kidnapped by either Blackfyres, or Blackwoods, or other enemies of Targaryens. And Rhaegar is a monster-child, that on that night has hatched out of one of those dragon eggs, that were at Summerhall, when Egg and his people were performing magic ritual to return dragons. So Varys is the prince that was promised, and Jon Snow is the son of a dragon-monster. I'm totally not serios about this  Though it is possible, that something among those lines, did happened at Summerhall.

Maybe Rhaella gave birth to two children, and Varys is one of them. Burning of Summerhall happened in 259, so by now Rhaegar (and his brother) would have been 41 years old. Varys seems to be of that age, a few years older than Ned was (died aged 35 or 36). At the time of Robert's Rebellion Rhaegar was 23-25. Varys has arrived to Westeros from Braavos in 278, if he is Rhaegar's twin, then at that time he was 19. Though he was a bravo, a thief, and a spymaster from early teens. So it is possible, that by the age of 19 he has already established himself as a prominent political figure in Essos, and was invited to join Aerys' court.

It is possible, that Varys, Illyrio, and fAegon are not connected to Blackfyres or Bittersteel. At least not by blood. It is possible, that what was said in the books, is the truth. That members of Golden Company are serving to either Varys or Illyrio, just because they have promised to get them back to Westeros, and all our convoluted theories about some dark secrets are totally unreasonable. Maybe we, readers, unnecessary overcomplicated things, just because we are too bored without next book.

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If we take George's words on Bittersteel's children as confirmation that he definitely had none - which seems not unlikely at this point - then how do we spin the whole Illyrio/Aegon thing?

Are the chances better now that Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son?

Is Aegon just Illyrio's son with a whore with no special blood of note whatsoever?

Does it make more sense now to go with the idea that Prince Maegor Targaryen might figure in this equation somehow?

Or do we go we just go with Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being fruits from different branches of the pretty big Blackfyre family tree, with no descendants of Bittersteel or Aerion Targaryen figuring into that all that much?

You're the one who put the Aegon descends from Aegor and Calla idea in my head. Before that, I had thought like this...

22 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

According to the wiki at least Daemon had other daughters besides Calla, so couldn't Aegon be a descendant of one of them?

And perhaps Daemon's sons had daughters and granddaughters from which Aegon (and Illyrio) could have descended. 

While I agreed that Bittersteel and Calla would have made the most sense, I don't think this revelation damages the Blackfyre theory. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I'm very likely in the minority, but if Aegon turns out to be the real deal, then I'll be so very okay with it. I sort of thought that there was a foreshadowing of something in a Jon chapter back in AGoT. I've also come to think that there's a lot more to the black dragon turning into a red one. 

That said, it also dashes a speculation that I had that he would have been only Serra's son, as opposed to Illyrio and Serra's. I thought we would get a flip of the script on this one and that Young Griff would turn out to be a bastard. A bastard started the Blackfyre line and a bastard would end it, type of situation.

I mean we have Ned who raised Jon because he loved his sister and made her promises and we have Jon Conn who has raised Young Griff because he loved Rhaegar and maybe Illyrio would have taken care of Serra's son because he loved her that much and loved her son by extension.

I figure the very reason for having Illyrio wed his bedslave was so that Aegon would not be a bastard. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys' parentage is sort of another matter. Our favorite eunuch most definitely didn't father Prince Aegon.

Some would have us believe that Varys could have mothered him! 

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It could be interesting, but Aerion's son is never mentioned again after ACoK, or is he? But the Blackfyres are.

And considering Maegor's age I only see a chance for Varys/Illyrio/Serra/whoever being an illegitimate descendant of Maegor's - not a legitimate son or daughter. The Iron Throne would have to be completely stupid not to connect Varys or Illyrio to Maegor.

I wonder whether this might have been the direction the George was headed in when he began writing Clash, by perhaps by the time he concluded that book, he had determined to go in another direction. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course not, but my idea was that Illyrio might - and thus Aegon, too - was descended from both Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel, explaining why Illyrio controls the Golden Company (which he does, not Varys).

Varys is another story. I think he should have some connection to Westeros/the Targaryens to explain why he cares, but since Varys has nothing to do with Aegon's parentage he could have a completely different ancestry story than Aegon/Illyrio.

George had to give names to various Targaryens in TWoIaF. Not just Prince Maegor but also Rhaegel's children and Daeron's lackwit daughter. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are important.

Daemon Blackfyre's seven sons, on the other hand, have always been an obvious way to establish multiple branches of the Blackfyre line. The twins and Daemon II don't have any children (it seems) but Haegon had sons, and if Aenys and the two unnamed younger sons also had children then the Blackfyre tree could be rather convoluted by the time Maelys dies - especially if Aenys and the younger sons had no sons of their own - or much more daughters.

One assumes George is just going to tell us Varys/Illyrio/Aegon's back story out of whole new cloth without giving us a lot of hints in previously published materials.

In fact, it might even be that Calla Blackfyre never married Bittersteel. It was just a promise made by Daemon Blackfyre - who knows what happened in exile? Did Bittersteel still want her? Did Rohanne of Tyrosh and her family want the girl to marry her uncle? Did she end up marrying Haegon Blackfyre? We don't know.

However, we should not take that quote of George's as gospel. It might be that he didn't have children - or that he didn't want to tell that he had children and thus threw out such a line. Or he might now think about how children of Bittersteel's could actually enrich the story.

This is certainly correct.

However, people who think some strange family tree constellations were always planned ahead in advance was always silly. Just look at the tweaks at the Targaryen family tree over the years, including the new revelations for FaB.

Illyrio's influence over the Golden Company could come his (possible) descent from any of Daemon's children. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I figure the very reason for having Illyrio wed his bedslave was so that Aegon would not be a bastard. 

But what if Illyrio met Serra after Aegon was born? What if he's not Illyrio's son at all, but just Serra's kid whom he had come to really love.

It doesn't seem like Illyrio had any children from his first wife and making abstraction of all the speculations regarding a Blackfyre Conspiracy, it doesn't look like he and Serra had children. Illyrio became something of a "pariah" after he married a whore, so he must have loved her enough to be willing to sacrifice some of his standing in the city. 

If Aegon is only Serra's son (and he wouldn't be the first kid born in a brothel) I don't find Illyrio's situation so different from Jon Conn's or Ned's where they are seeing to the well-being of children they did not father, but love because these kids belong to people they loved deeply.

But I'll be happy as a goddamn clam if Aegon is the real deal. 

[Bael's Bastard]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wonder whether this might have been the direction the George was headed in when he began writing Clash, by perhaps by the time he concluded that book, he had determined to go in another direction. 

I suspect that to be the case, as after ACOK Aerion's son gets no more mention, while the Blackfyres and Great Bastards are introduced and get more and more written about them, both in the main series and in the novellas.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You're the one who put the Aegon descends from Aegor and Calla idea in my head. Before that, I had thought like this...

And perhaps Daemon's sons had daughters and granddaughters from which Aegon (and Illyrio) could have descended. 

While I agreed that Bittersteel and Calla would have made the most sense, I don't think this revelation damages the Blackfyre theory. 

Sure, it was just a nice idea. And if Illyrio/Aegon and Varys have some Targaryen background, then most likely through two different branches of the Blackfyre family tree.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I figure the very reason for having Illyrio wed his bedslave was so that Aegon would not be a bastard. 

Most likely to ensure/make things easier for Aegon to inherit all of Illyrio's Pentoshi estates should the plan be canceled.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wonder whether this might have been the direction the George was headed in when he began writing Clash, by perhaps by the time he concluded that book, he had determined to go in another direction. 

That's how we spun the thing recently, no? The background for the Aegon plan is just some Targaryen cadet branch. It is irrelevant through what long dead corpses the claim goes.

And the Blackfyre thing comes only in through Dunk & Egg.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I suspect that to be the case, as after ACOK Aerion's son gets no more mention, while the Blackfyres and Great Bastards are introduced and get more and more written about them, both in the main series and in the novellas.

Prince Maegor might likely still get a story if/when George gets to Dunk & Egg stories about Egg's reign, but chances are very low that he is going to utilize this guy for the whole Aegon story.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

But what if Illyrio met Serra after Aegon was born? What if he's not Illyrio's son at all, but just Serra's kid whom he had come to really love.

It doesn't seem like Illyrio had any children from his first wife and making abstraction of all the speculations regarding a Blackfyre Conspiracy, it doesn't look like he and Serra had children. Illyrio became something of a "pariah" after he married a whore, so he must have loved her enough to be willing to sacrifice some of his standing in the city. 

If Aegon is only Serra's son (and he wouldn't be the first kid born in a brothel) I don't find Illyrio's situation so different from Jon Conn's or Ned's where they are seeing to the well-being of children they did not father, but love because these kids belong to people they loved deeply.

The best way to deal with this Serra story is simply to assume that Illyrio fucked a considerable number of Lyseni whores to get a son with Valyrian features. Just one woman wouldn't have been enough. What if the child was a girl? What if it didn't have Valyrian features? They needed a child quickly after the real Aegon was dead - if that's what happened.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The best way to deal with this Serra story is simply to assume that Illyrio fucked a considerable number of Lyseni whores to get a son with Valyrian features. Just one woman wouldn't have been enough. What if the child was a girl? What if it didn't have Valyrian features? They needed a child quickly after the real Aegon was dead - if that's what happened.

This is why I'll never be on board with this Illyrio business. It never made a lick of sense to me.