Jump to content
manchester_babe

Why did George give daenerys everything

Recommended Posts

42 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I believe this is true.

She has a big task ahead of her.  To end slavery.  She will need all of the materials at her disposal.  Be they the world's best infantry, best cavalry, most loyal army of former slaves, and her three dragons.  It is a world building task that would require the best assets in order to complete and many years.  

Dany is the hero of the story.  Great power is needed to help the slaves.  Prayers won't be enough.  She is the only one who can be trusted with this level of power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

To answer the original question:

Because George loves Dany. Read 'The Glass Flower' and 'Fevre Dream' - George really has a thing for those (proto-)Targaryens.

There was never any doubt that Dany is one of his favorite characters.

LV, watch your mouth. In The Glass Flower  Cyrain was mental slaver. Cyrain was never a slave herself. Khar Dorian was “her slaver” because he brought Cyrain mental slaves for her to steal bodies from. Cyrain is a proto-Targ in this story alone, none other. A story that revolves around slavery based on suppression and trying to achieve the unachievable.   

And Fevre Dream???? Really? She is Damon Julian, right down to the “free the slaves, but keep he mental slaves/religion” talk. You want quotes? Also, no proto-Targs here, but instead a guy dressed up in white, grey, red, and blue frickin’ flowers crowned atop his “ship”. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Mine too.  I love that young lady.

I don't think that is the reason why he gave her a lot.  He also took a lot away from her.  Daenerys Targaryen has suffered more loses than just about anyone in the novels.  

George Martin is also said to like Tyrion, Arya, Samwell, Jon.  I guess we can count on Snowball coming back to life because the author likes him.  :(  

George said he liked all of his POV characters.. not sure why you guys are singling specific ones out.

Also not sure why you’re wishing death on one of the only good morale characters in the books.. but whatever.

Edited by Starkz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just saying that the physical imagery of inhumanely beautiful albinos is very prevalent in George's most recent work prior to ASoIaF. Those are things he apparently likes very much. And the image of the woman that would become Daenerys Targaryen burned very bright in the man's mind before he started to write the series. These two women do not closely resemble each other. They are literally identical.

This is all about Daenerys. Back in 'The Glass Flower' she was just an image, literally without personality. And then he gave her one, for ASoIaF. The man certainly recycles concepts and names a lot, but it is very striking how Daenerys Targaryen's body shows up before Dany is even created.

As for hot albino sex:

You don't need Bloodraven for that. Any other Targaryen fits that bill perfectly. A Targaryen albino would be just another Targaryen. George really shot himself in the foot there by creating a Targaryen albino considering that the way he describes his Targaryens fit the description of albinos perfectly.

Even those famous red eyes more often look very purplish and violet to me. There variations, of course, but if one checks descriptions of actual albinos then Maekar fits the bill just as well as Brynden.

And that the author *really likes* those looks is also evident in the fact that he made them have the looks but not the issues that come with them - poor eyesight (Bloodraven is a great archer which no real albino ever would be - most definitely not one who eventually loses an eye), poor hearing, highly sensitive skin, etc.

And Bloodraven, really - brushing his long hair so that it covers the missing eye? What kind of animé crap is that?

And it is really an oft repeated literary cliché to make albinos special 'evil' or 'sinister' characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That’s just to keep things real, to show that things are messy and gritty.

I disagree. Compare those scenes to the kill scenes in Kill Bill. In the latter, we are never asked to feel pity for the villains.

1 hour ago, Aetta said:

True dat. I dislike her because she's an idiot. 

Yes, yes, she can speak the mother tongue and Viserys et al gave her an education at least better than that of the average smallfolk. So she's book smart. Cat, Sansa and Cersei are also highly educated political morons. (Well, Sansa is learning from her mistakes, I hope). 

Being able to burn people with your dragons doesn't make ya great, either. A conqueror, sure. A leader of nations, not necessarily. Queen Visenya was no great diplomat, either, but she was capable of being iron-fisted, highly organized and wasn't swayed by the penis.

Dopey Dany has caused more misery and suffering than her "mad" brother ever would have, given he just wanted to grab an army and head to Westeros, not tear apart Essos by taking out the economy and socio-political structure on his way out.

Strong, capable young women in this series are a'plenty. Arya Stark, Asha Greyjoy, Meera Reed, Ygritte, Sarella Sand, and we'll see how Val develops. All are leaps and bounds beyond Dany as far as repping the XX Nation.

Have you ever noticed that your list of "strong, capable young women" only includes more masculine "warrior woman" types, with the possible exception of Sarella (then again, she's pretending to be a dude), while your morons list only includes the more feminine "soft power" types? Just an observation.

12 hours ago, teej6 said:

Again, most people do not empathize with mass murderers and definitely do not empathize with evil fictional characters. That’s not how peoples brains work. If you can empathize with Hitler as you say, you must be a great empath. Kudos to you. Although, strange that you can do it for a character as vile as Cersei but not for Arya, a traumatized child who is trying to survive in a brutal world. 

That's rather reductive. You can empathise/sympathise with a person without condoning their actions. Hitler was still a human, after all. I'm sure he scraped his knee as a boy once. You can feel sorry for him for that while abhorring him for the Holocaust at the same time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Hitler was still a human, after all. I'm sure he scraped his knee as a boy once. You can feel sorry for him for that while abhorring him for the Holocaust at the same time.

That depends. For me anyway. Do I know what he becomes later on when he scrapes his knee as a boy? B/c if so not only I can't empathise or sympathise, but can only wish he'd break his neck and die then and there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

 

Have you ever noticed that your list of "strong, capable young women" only includes more masculine "warrior woman" types, with the possible exception of Sarella (then again, she's pretending to be a dude), while your morons list only includes the more feminine "soft power" types? Just an observation.

That's rather reductive. You can empathise/sympathise with a person without condoning their actions. Hitler was still a human, after all. I'm sure he scraped his knee as a boy once. You can feel sorry for him for that while abhorring him for the Holocaust at the same time.

Strong is a rather broad term that can have numerous different meanings. I agree just because Sansa and Dany aren’t warriors/fighters doesn’t mean that they aren’t “strong people”. Daenerys is a strong leader of her people and Sansa is strong for preserving all this time. I think Cersei is probably the strongest woman character in the books and she rarely gets any credit for it.

 

It’s extremely difficult to empathize/sympathize with mass murderers or evil people. Knowing who they’re and what they’ve done it’s incredibly hard to unless you look at the specific instance worthy of sympathy unbiased to who the person is. A boy falls and hurts his knee we of course feel sympathy, Hitler falls as a boy and hurts his knee, how can you feel sorry for him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

 

Have you ever noticed that your list of "strong, capable young women" only includes more masculine "warrior woman" types, with the possible exception of Sarella (then again, she's pretending to be a dude), while your morons list only includes the more feminine "soft power" types? Just an observation.

 

Certainly true, though I was trying to limit to the current story. I could throw in Rohanne Webber, Alysanne Targaryen, the She-Wolves. Women who had natural guile, if not leadership ability.  Margaery Tyrell, and hopefully Arianne, provided she gets out from under Doran's thumb, have taken some steps toward becoming effective leaders.

That's not to say that ALL of these girls & women haven't put their butts on the line and had missteps. What makes Dany beyond the pale is her continued failure to foresee the consequences of her (largely political) actions.  And she has the potential to burn the world. With great power comes blah blah blah...

End of the day, if Dany is to be a conqueror, it's only fair to compare her to the other warrior chicks we have in our story.  And GRRM is the one who has clearly equated strength with, well, strength.

But let's be fair; Dany has encountered a heavier burden than the women I listed, right? Well, not necessarily, and some of what Dany is experiencing is self-inflicted. As I wrote earlier, had it gone Viserys's way, he'd have gotten his hoard and set sail for Westeros. There would be blood in the ensuing Westerosi conflict, for sure. But Dany's goal is to take Westeros, too (so we think), which would shed the same blood, and she has added to the death count immensely with her actions in Essos.

Our author is deeply anti-war, yet he has given his main character a nuke with wings.  It follows that great folly is to come, we just don't know if George is going to bail Dany out, or teach Planetos a lesson at her expense.  I don't believe for a second he'll have her coming out smelling like roses and living happily ever after, feeding Drogon good boy treats while vacationing at Summerhall.  I don't think it's a stretch that GRRM has purposefully written her character to have some redeeming qualities while at the same time losing her way and causing immeasurable catastrophe. The human heart in conflict with itself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Strong is a rather broad term that can have numerous different meanings. I agree just because Sansa and Dany aren’t warriors/fighters doesn’t mean that they aren’t “strong people”. Daenerys is a strong leader of her people and Sansa is strong for preserving all this time. I think Cersei is probably the strongest woman character in the books and she rarely gets any credit for it.

 

It’s extremely difficult to empathize/sympathize with mass murderers or evil people. Knowing who they’re and what they’ve done it’s incredibly hard to unless you look at the specific instance worthy of sympathy unbiased to who the person is. A boy falls and hurts his knee we of course feel sympathy, Hitler falls as a boy and hurts his knee, how can you feel sorry for him?

Sansa is gaining her strength. And Dany is absolutely a warrior at this point. She just doesn't wield a sword.

Cersei is a strong dumb dumb. She's no Maggie Thatcher.

But you've hit on why I don't empathize with Dany as of ADwD. I see what GRRM is doing there: He's showing us that intervening in a broken system, even with the best of intentions, can have dire consequences. The guy that was an objector to Vietnam, go figure.  Mass death is occuring because of Dany, not in spite of her. But Daenerys Targaryen is not Hitler, that's not even an apt analogy for a variety of reasons, and I know you didn't specifically make that claim, just sayin.'

ETA-Just so we don't lose track, I was agreeing initially that hating on Dany simply because she's a woman is, in fact, absurd. My reply demonstrates that I can dislike Ms. Stormborn outside the scope of her ovaries, and I hold her to the same standards I would hold the male figures in this story. For example, Brandon "Wild Wolf" Stark and Robb Stark are ridiculously reckless characters. Both of them paid the price for their haste, and in the spirit of equality, Dany might, too.

Edited by Aetta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm just saying that the physical imagery of inhumanely beautiful albinos is very prevalent in George's most recent work prior to ASoIaF.

No. Wrong. This happened once and only once in the story Glass Flower. And this is a story related to mental slavery/thralldom. 

Most of his heroes/heroines look like Arya or Ashara Dayne. A few have red hair. Melantha Jhirl, who was rewritten as Val, is a black woman. Cyrain is the only silver haired, purple- eyed character he writes... and she is related to Dany literary-wise because they are mental slavers, not heroes. 

Quote

Those are things he apparently likes very much.

Once. Josh York is pale like the old gods/Starks with grey eyes and a long face. Martin does like the tree/old gods thing, l’ll give you that. 

Quote

And the image of the woman that would become Daenerys Targaryen burned very bright in the man's mind before he started to write the series. These two women do not closely resemble each other. They are literally identical.

Yeah, exactly. They both put down and deflect on themselves that they are physical slavers, but in truth they are both mental slavers/ icons of religious zealotry. Cyrain actually jokes that she is Jesus Christ, for chrissakes! And that she had 12 apostles. But she quite literally jokes about Khar Dorian (Daario) being her slaver who brings her bodies... and Cyrain sits in a hot cup of “fire”, just as Dany drinks from the cup of fire. 

Quote

This is all about Daenerys. Back in 'The Glass Flower' she was just an image, literally without personality. And then he gave her one, for ASoIaF. The man certainly recycles concepts and names a lot, but it is very striking how Daenerys Targaryen's body shows up before Dany is even created.

Cyrain has a huge personality before we see her in her fifth stolen body as the young Targish Body we read her as. She had several careers and lived on several planets throughout the solar system and beyond. How can that not be personality? And Cyrain rebuilds her tower in obsidian and strategically places her personal abode in a spot where everyone has to pass through her to reach the relic where the game of mine is held. She is judging everyone as Jesus judges people, but in a  cruel, condescending way. Cyrain has people/beings flocking outside her gates in a religious prostrating way. But yeah, no personality :rolleyes: Cyrain only steals bodies as she sees fit. 

You are correct that Cyrain of Ash and Lilith is Daenerys Stormborn. 

I agree that Martin is repurposing his own characters he is comfortable with, but if you think that always means a good protagonist, well, I’ll add that to the beer tally I have that you owe me. 

 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Aetta said:

Sansa is gaining her strength. And Dany is absolutely a warrior at this point. She just doesn't wield a sword.

But you've hit on why I don't empathize with Dany as of ADwD. I see what GRRM is doing there: He's showing us that intervening in a broken system, even with the best of intentions, can have dire consequences. The guy that was an objector to Vietnam, go figure.  Mass death is occuring because of Dany, not in spite of her. But Daenerys Targaryen is not Hitler, that's not even an apt analogy for a variety of reasons, and I know you didn't specifically make that claim, just sayin.'

 

I just used the analogy because the person I was responding to did. I don’t think Daenerys is like Hitler, but yes both have caused a whole lot of people to die and destruction. I do see the perspective in the matter of strength by not including Daenerys and Sansa in a “strong” category. The category listed was more that of conventional strength of fighting/toughness. Daenerys has three dragons so it’s hard to consider anyone with 3 dragons to not be a strong person, the dragons are quite literally her strength.  I do agree that she’s not “strong” individually in the sense of if she was attacked by someone and alone she wouldn’t be able to hold her own. For Sansa, yes she is still learning but there is strength in perseverance, she’s hasn’t turned into Arya killing a bunch of people or lost her way so I would consider them both strong in a more enhanced version of it.

Edited by Starkz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/20/2018 at 8:14 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why did Geroge give Dany everything in book 1, inhuman beauty, dragons, her becoming queen in the end. 

George Martin gave her beauty and brains.  She earned the rest on her own.  I posted a discussion on her achievements.  Check out the discussion:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150228-daenerys-targaryens-power-plays/

Reading Dany's points of view chapters is like watching Roger Federer play tennis.  It's like watching the Fed return an opponent's 130 mph serve and create an offense.  What should be a defensive situation for anybody else becomes a position from which to launch an offense.  Dany is like that.  

She is the queen in the end because she has the proper mix of talent and luck.  Dany was born beautiful and smart.  She comes from the most famous family in the world.  But do not forget, she is brave and resourceful.  She made a lot of very bold moves to help the slaves.  Fortune favors the bold.  You would follow her too if she rescued you from Kraznys.  

On 8/20/2018 at 8:50 PM, Davjos said:

Besides her beauty, nothing was given to her. The girl has suffered abuse from her brother as long as she can remember. She had to endure rape, a completely foreign culture. She had to seduce herself into a relatively comfortable position. She lost it when Drogo died. She hatched the dragons herself. She lost everything but her dragons again. She took everything she has. She had to march through a desert. She had to fight for her dragons in Qarth, although they fought for her too there. She had to fight to gain an army in Astapor. Her rule of Mereen has been a constant struggle. Her closest confidant turned out to be betraying her for a long time. The person she felt safest with died a long time ago. She has been manipulated by Illyrio, who turned out to be actually supporting fAegon. What has come easy for her? 

 

Taken out of the story, Dany is the only one capable of hatching the dragons. You really want ASOIAF without dragons? 

 

On 8/20/2018 at 9:15 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This reads like it's coming from a bitter and jealous Jon-fan (and Dany-hater).  George didn't give Dany everything.  Dany earned all of the goodness that she has. 

  1. Do you expect somebody like Sansa Stark to have the guts to lead a khalasar through the desert?  No way, right.  Three minutes into the hike and Sansa Stark would demand for her butt to be carried.  
  2. Dany gave up her lover in order to marry a man she didn't love, for the good of the people.  Can you expect Robb Stark to do the same?  No.
  3. Is King Joff brave enough to walk into fire to hatch dragon eggs?  Joffrey is not brave enough to do that.  
  4. Dany gave mercy to her cupbearers even if their families might be involved in terrorism, because the hostages had nothing to do with it.  Would Stannis show the same mercy?  I don't think so.  He didn't show any to his starving men.

Dany spent a lot of her childhood in the streets.  She was forced to marry a barbarian.  She made the best of  it and earned the man's respect.  She is a genius and a very resourceful young girl.  She earned her gifts.  

How many other people had to spend part of their childhood on the streets?  Viserys.  Daenerys.  Dunk.  Arya.  Sansa gets three square meal per day, prepared by maids.  Jon for most of his childhood had it easy in Winterfell compared to common born boys.  Mormont gave him a break and put him in a safe assignment.  I don't hold that against them.  Just about anybody who succeeded got a break from somebody.  

On 8/21/2018 at 1:11 AM, chrisdaw said:

Because she sacrificed her son.

That was a big heart break.  I can think of no one else who has had to go through this much tragedy.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Starkz said:

I just used the analogy because the person I was responding to did. I don’t think Daenerys is like Hitler, but yes both have caused a whole lot of people to die and destruction. I do see the perspective in the matter of strength by not including Daenerys and Sansa in a “strong” category. The category listed was more that of conventional strength of fighting/toughness. Daenerys has three dragons so it’s hard to consider anyone with 3 dragons to not be a strong person, the dragons are quite literally her strength.  I do agree that she’s not “strong” individually in the sense of if she was attacked by someone and alone she wouldn’t be able to hold her own. For Sansa, yes she is still learning but there is strength in perseverance, she’s hasn’t turned into Arya killing a bunch of people or lost her way so I would consider them both strong in a more enhanced version of it.

I don't disagree at all with what you write and this is what we have in front of us....so far.

Though, I reserve my weepy, bleeding heart feelings for the fictional mothers and daughters of Flea Bottom who have to trudge through piss and feces everyday of their lives. For these highborn women, they already start life with vast advantage, vast responsibility and necessary accountability.  They start out with an inherent strength in the feudal system, that's a given.

I think Sansa has some accounting to do for her tattle-taling on Ned (and the fallout) and she's getting there. I think Cersei continues to dig a hole.  I think Lyanna was painfully irresponsible. And I think Dany has tremendous resources to set things right in Westeros - in the far far far north of Westeros. But GRRM has kept her in Essos, and he's kept her obsessed with her altruism. 

I love to hate Dany, and that is because of her paradox. That is, she is setup as this lovely, smart, fierce young girl who is going to overcome adversity, end slavery, take her crown, and the people of Westeros will enjoy a beautiful life under her reign. And then, the rug is pulled out from under us.  She is all over the board, she's making judgements that are resulting in huge casualties, and now she's MIA.  She's ruining the pretty pretty princess storyline we started with!  I happen to believe GRRM wants me to hate her right now, and he's succeeding.  Because if I don't hate her, how can he redeem her? Master storyteller, that guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

That would make me said.  If it happens in the books.  Because I am a fan of hers.  This is something more likely to happen on the show.  

You can say this about anybody.  Any character can die.  That is the point of this story.  All men must die at some point.  Jon has just as good a chance of dying.  His chances of survival are no better than hers.  

True

 

4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Mine too.  I love that young lady.

I don't think that is the reason why he gave her a lot.  He also took a lot away from her.  Daenerys Targaryen has suffered more loses than just about anyone in the novels.  

George Martin is also said to like Tyrion, Arya, Samwell, Jon.  I guess we can count on Snowball coming back to life because the author likes him.  :(  

The story would be better if Martin doesn't bring Jon back to life.  That's the only way the fans will take death seriously.  Reading the polls on this forum shows the majority believe Jon is coming back.  That is too predictable.  I don't care for the boy and would rather somebody else be the point of view character at the wall.

Edited by Mon ami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Aetta said:

Certainly true, though I was trying to limit to the current story. I could throw in Rohanne Webber, Alysanne Targaryen, the She-Wolves. Women who had natural guile, if not leadership ability.  Margaery Tyrell, and hopefully Arianne, provided she gets out from under Doran's thumb, have taken some steps toward becoming effective leaders.

That's not to say that ALL of these girls & women haven't put their butts on the line and had missteps. What makes Dany beyond the pale is her continued failure to foresee the consequences of her (largely political) actions.  And she has the potential to burn the world. With great power comes blah blah blah...

End of the day, if Dany is to be a conqueror, it's only fair to compare her to the other warrior chicks we have in our story.  And GRRM is the one who has clearly equated strength with, well, strength.

But let's be fair; Dany has encountered a heavier burden than the women I listed, right? Well, not necessarily, and some of what Dany is experiencing is self-inflicted. As I wrote earlier, had it gone Viserys's way, he'd have gotten his hoard and set sail for Westeros. There would be blood in the ensuing Westerosi conflict, for sure. But Dany's goal is to take Westeros, too (so we think), which would shed the same blood, and she has added to the death count immensely with her actions in Essos.

Our author is deeply anti-war, yet he has given his main character a nuke with wings.  It follows that great folly is to come, we just don't know if George is going to bail Dany out, or teach Planetos a lesson at her expense.  I don't believe for a second he'll have her coming out smelling like roses and living happily ever after, feeding Drogon good boy treats while vacationing at Summerhall.  I don't think it's a stretch that GRRM has purposefully written her character to have some redeeming qualities while at the same time losing her way and causing immeasurable catastrophe. The human heart in conflict with itself. 

I'm not sure what your argument is... Dany is an idiot because she has more power than the other female characters? I mean, that's the real difference between her and most of the other characters, female or male, and why her actions have such notable consequences. Her actions have caused a lot of deaths but they've also saved or improved a lot of lives.

I think the problem with criticising Dany for not having a well thought out plan for abolishing slavery is that she didn't actually set out to do that. Her initial plan was just to free the Unsullied. It wasn't until later, when she realised her actions would mean nothing in the long run, that she decided to try and fix the system. And from there on, she was a lot more deliberate in her actions. It's why she donned her "floppy ears" and made concessions to the Mereenese nobles.

As for GRRM being anti-war, I don't think that's entirely true. Martin is a hippy, but I think he recognises the necessity of war, and the inevitability of violence in bringing about radical social change. Also, the Others aren't going to be defeated by group hugs.

4 hours ago, Starkz said:

Strong is a rather broad term that can have numerous different meanings. I agree just because Sansa and Dany aren’t warriors/fighters doesn’t mean that they aren’t “strong people”. Daenerys is a strong leader of her people and Sansa is strong for preserving all this time. I think Cersei is probably the strongest woman character in the books and she rarely gets any credit for it.

It’s extremely difficult to empathize/sympathize with mass murderers or evil people. Knowing who they’re and what they’ve done it’s incredibly hard to unless you look at the specific instance worthy of sympathy unbiased to who the person is. A boy falls and hurts his knee we of course feel sympathy, Hitler falls as a boy and hurts his knee, how can you feel sorry for him?

Well, difficult isn't impossible. What if your child or beloved sibling was a mass murderer? I imagine a person in that position would find it extremely difficult to not empathise/sympathise with a murderer or to stop caring about them, because they can view the person as more than their crime.

To bring this back to Cersei, I don't think you have to have an usually high capacity for empathy or to be an apologist to feel sorry for her during her walk of shame. You just have to view her as a human being, which I don't think is that difficult given that we're in her head for the scene.

And re: strong, yes that was one of the things I wanted to point out. I don't know if I'd consider Cersei THE strongest woman in the books, but I agree that she doesn't get enough credit for what strength she does possess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/20/2018 at 8:14 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why did Geroge give Dany everything in book 1, inhuman beauty, dragons, her becoming queen in the end. 

Did he?  I thought he took more from her than he has any other woman.  Sure she was born with intelligence.  Being lovely is a gift.  But what came after was earned.  Her dragons and Unsullied were earned because she took a chance.  

The lead character should have what she needs to have an impact in the story.  A powerless person would not make for a compelling lead character because what they do is not going to matter in the bigger picture.  A regular person worries about rain for his crops and earning income.  It doesn't make for compelling reading.  A main character with dragons who happens to fight against the slave trade is great reading.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

As for GRRM being anti-war, I don't think that's entirely true. Martin is a hippy, but I think he recognises the necessity of war, and the inevitability of violence in bringing about radical social change. Also, the Others aren't going to be defeated by group hugs.

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That depends. For me anyway. Do I know what he becomes later on when he scrapes his knee as a boy? B/c if so not only I can't empathise or sympathise, but can only wish he'd break his neck and die then and there. 

But that is a hypothetical that's never open to you in real life. You will never know whether your child is going to become a mass murderer or not when it is a child - and even if it shows strong tendencies in a certain direction a parent with normal empathy levels would still hope things are going to turn out fine.

And it is the same with any child you see hurt and weeping on the street. You go over there, try to comfort it, and ask what's going on. That's what people do. 

George actually plays with the 'I know what the future will bring' thing with his prophecies, dreams, and visions - and it is perfectly clear that using those as a guidelines for your own actions is a very bad idea.

9 hours ago, Starkz said:

It’s extremely difficult to empathize/sympathize with mass murderers or evil people. Knowing who they’re and what they’ve done it’s incredibly hard to unless you look at the specific instance worthy of sympathy unbiased to who the person is. A boy falls and hurts his knee we of course feel sympathy, Hitler falls as a boy and hurts his knee, how can you feel sorry for him?

It is actually not that hard. Ask those many women who try and successfully suck up to convicted serial killers and the like. This kind of thing can and is very attractive to a certain group of people.

Also read a lot interviews and testimonies of the parents and other families of (mass) murderers and serial killers. There are many of those who do not cut ties with their convicted family members.

It is very easy to point the finger at convicts on the TV screen (or throw dirt at the people who are dragged through the streets to be executed) and quite another to actually do that with people you have known and loved for years.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But that is a hypothetical that's never open to you in real life. You will never know whether your child is going to become a mass murderer or not when it is a child - and even if it shows strong tendencies in a certain direction a parent with normal empathy levels would still hope things are going to turn out fine.

And it is the same with any child you see hurt and weeping on the street. You go over there, try to comfort it, and ask what's going on. That's what people do. 

George actually plays with the 'I know what the future will bring' thing with his prophecies, dreams, and visions - and it is perfectly clear that using those as a guidelines for your own actions is a very bad idea.

Not sure what your point is, in the context of a reply to my post. 

To the bold, IMO in a vast majority of cases that is explained simply by denial being a very powerful thing. Parents of kids who like to kill/torture/maim animals at a young age and do nothing are in denial - "of course my kid is normal and not a fucked up psycho! It's just normal curiosity!" - and should be held responsible to some degree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not sure what your argument is... Dany is an idiot because she has more power than the other female characters? I mean, that's the real difference between her and most of the other characters, female or male, and why her actions have such notable consequences. Her actions have caused a lot of deaths but they've also saved or improved a lot of lives.

I think the problem with criticising Dany for not having a well thought out plan for abolishing slavery is that she didn't actually set out to do that. Her initial plan was just to free the Unsullied. It wasn't until later, when she realised her actions would mean nothing in the long run, that she decided to try and fix the system. And from there on, she was a lot more deliberate in her actions. It's why she donned her "floppy ears" and made concessions to the Mereenese nobles.

As for GRRM being anti-war, I don't think that's entirely true. Martin is a hippy, but I think he recognises the necessity of war, and the inevitability of violence in bringing about radical social change. Also, the Others aren't going to be defeated by group hugs.

Well, difficult isn't impossible. What if your child or beloved sibling was a mass murderer? I imagine a person in that position would find it extremely difficult to not empathise/sympathise with a murderer or to stop caring about them, because they can view the person as more than their crime.

To bring this back to Cersei, I don't think you have to have an usually high capacity for empathy or to be an apologist to feel sorry for her during her walk of shame. You just have to view her as a human being, which I don't think is that difficult given that we're in her head for the scene.

And re: strong, yes that was one of the things I wanted to point out. I don't know if I'd consider Cersei THE strongest woman in the books, but I agree that she doesn't get enough credit for what strength she does possess.

Pretty sure the point is she utilizes her power poorly and causes a  lot of damage because of it.

 

If my sibling or child is a mass murder and evil I’m not feeling any care towards them besides regret.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×