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King Jon Targaryen I

Jon a Fusion of Fire Magic and Ice Magic

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Just a thought, if you take R+L=J but this could be very important in terms of the history of the world in the series. Great Other and The Red God is a fusion of this magic and Jon has the blood of Valyria and the North, just a thought. What do you guys think?

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I think you may have taken it a step too far.   I was composing a reply for another current topic last night wherein I sort of went freestyle and allowed myself to ponder the magic of ice and fire and what it could mean for a long anticipated child of a Stark and Targaryen union.   Pact of Ice and Fire, you know.   It sure seemed to be something the Starks wanted far more than the Targs did.  We've got a close example of North and dragons in Bloodraven (but curiously, not his sisters?) but it's only close, not exact.   There is all this wonderful magic in Bloodraven whereas our suspected Stark/Targ child seems to have very little magic ability.   Could it be that a true union of powers of Ice and Fire is actually a mere mortal with no magic at all?   Is the combination of Fire and Ice mutually destructive?  The Targ prophesy is that of a Prince Who Was Promised.  Hrm.   What does that mean?   Not a king, not a demi god and certainly not a greenseeing dream weaver.   A prince.  Just a prince of ill defined power.   

I don't know that R'hllor is really an accurate representation of Valyrian magic nor that the Great Other is truly representative of 1st Men magic.   Religion is sort of separated from magic in my mind.   And I could be way off here, too.   Just some rather new random thoughts that recently occurred to me. 

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In another thread, I was just noticing in Jon's dream that includes a weirwood tree, the eyes in the tree are described as "fierce." I haven't done a search on this word to see how it is used in other ways, or whether it is often associated with Jon, but it might be a clue if fire + ice = fierce.

I've only just started to think about the R'hllor religion. I think it might be significant that Thoros of Myr was sent to try to convert Robert Baratheon but he failed. Thoros is one of the first over the wall at Pyke (with Ser Jorah) and he wins the melee at the Hand's Tourney. I think we need to figure out Thoros as a key to the Red God.

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52 minutes ago, Seams said:

In another thread, I was just noticing in Jon's dream that includes a weirwood tree, the eyes in the tree are described as "fierce." I haven't done a search on this word to see how it is used in other ways, or whether it is often associated with Jon, but it might be a clue if fire + ice = fierce.

I've only just started to think about the R'hllor religion. I think it might be significant that Thoros of Myr was sent to try to convert Robert Baratheon but he failed. Thoros is one of the first over the wall at Pyke (with Ser Jorah) and he wins the melee at the Hand's Tourney. I think we need to figure out Thoros as a key to the Red God.

Hi Seams.   Could you expand on this idea in bold just a little bit?   Need to understand a little better before I jump on the train of discussion about this.  

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39 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi Seams.   Could you expand on this idea in bold just a little bit?   Need to understand a little better before I jump on the train of discussion about this.  

I'm not sure I can clarify except to say that I find him increasingly intriguing. The crossing of the wall at Pyke is significant to me because some major, important characters are given credit for being first over a wall - Ser Jorah, as mentioned, and Ser Loras at Dragonstone. At Pyke, Old Nan's grandson (maybe - his exact relationship to her and Hodor is left vague) is also among those who cross the wall. Why would GRRM throw in those details? What unique quality or future role in the story does Thoros embody?

We know that he seems able to bring Ser Beric back to life and he doesn't even understand his own power to do this. Does it have something to do with crossing the wall at Pyke? Is the crossing of a wall combined with his red god faith to make a unique kind of magic? Is the crossing of the wall a form of immortality and Thoros has the power to confer it on others? He also brings Brienne "back" by feeding her after her attack by Rorge and Biter.

So a more thorough analysis might involve a comparison of Thoros with Melisandre and Moqorro. Moqorro seems to have had a resurrection, emerging from the sea and being taken aboard Victarion's ship. He seems to cure Victarion's festering wound, although I'm not sure that is exactly the same thing as the ability to resurrect dead people. We haven't seen Melisandre resurrect anyone, but her ability to conjure shadow babies might fall into the same basket of magical powers. Some people suspect she will play a resurrection role in Jon Snow's arc.

The thing that is most intriguing to me about Thoros is that he is a victor at a tournament. I have taken a closer look at the tournament at Ashford Meadow in recent months, and it seems as if victors at tournaments are really, really important. Major foreshadowing. It seems important that Sandor, Anguy and Thoros are the victors at the Hand's Tourney and that they then come together again in Sandor's trial by combat with Ser Beric.

But this is getting far from the Jon Snow, fire/ice, great other/ red god focus of the OP. Maybe we need to explore Thoros elsewhere.

 

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@Seams thank you for elaborating for the millionth time so that I better understand your ideas.    Agreed this is off topic, but I do appreciate this more than you can imagine.   PM to follow.   

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20 minutes ago, Seams said:

I'm not sure I can clarify except to say that I find him increasingly intriguing. The crossing of the wall at Pyke is significant to me because some major, important characters are given credit for being first over a wall - Ser Jorah, as mentioned, and Ser Loras at Dragonstone. At Pyke, Old Nan's grandson (maybe - his exact relationship to her and Hodor is left vague) is also among those who cross the wall. Why would GRRM throw in those details? What unique quality or future role in the story does Thoros embody?

We know that he seems able to bring Ser Beric back to life and he doesn't even understand his own power to do this. Does it have something to do with crossing the wall at Pyke? Is the crossing of a wall combined with his red god faith to make a unique kind of magic? Is the crossing of the wall a form of immortality and Thoros has the power to confer it on others? He also brings Brienne "back" by feeding her after her attack by Rorge and Biter.

So a more thorough analysis might involve a comparison of Thoros with Melisandre and Moqorro. Moqorro seems to have had a resurrection, emerging from the sea and being taken aboard Victarion's ship. He seems to cure Victarion's festering wound, although I'm not sure that is exactly the same thing as the ability to resurrect dead people. We haven't seen Melisandre resurrect anyone, but her ability to conjure shadow babies might fall into the same basket of magical powers. Some people suspect she will play a resurrection role in Jon Snow's arc.

The thing that is most intriguing to me about Thoros is that he is a victor at a tournament. I have taken a closer look at the tournament at Ashford Meadow in recent months, and it seems as if victors at tournaments are really, really important. Major foreshadowing. It seems important that Sandor, Anguy and Thoros are the victors at the Hand's Tourney and that they then come together again in Sandor's trial by combat with Ser Beric.

But this is getting far from the Jon Snow, fire/ice, great other/ red god focus of the OP. Maybe we need to explore Thoros elsewhere.

 

I have read very little on the Thoros thing. I would love to see a thread on that.

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think you may have taken it a step too far.   I was composing a reply for another current topic last night wherein I sort of went freestyle and allowed myself to ponder the magic of ice and fire and what it could mean for a long anticipated child of a Stark and Targaryen union.   Pact of Ice and Fire, you know.   It sure seemed to be something the Starks wanted far more than the Targs did.  We've got a close example of North and dragons in Bloodraven (but curiously, not his sisters?) but it's only close, not exact.   There is all this wonderful magic in Bloodraven whereas our suspected Stark/Targ child seems to have very little magic ability.   Could it be that a true union of powers of Ice and Fire is actually a mere mortal with no magic at all?   Is the combination of Fire and Ice mutually destructive?  The Targ prophesy is that of a Prince Who Was Promised.  Hrm.   What does that mean?   Not a king, not a demi god and certainly not a greenseeing dream weaver.   A prince.  Just a prince of ill defined power.   

I don't know that R'hllor is really an accurate representation of Valyrian magic nor that the Great Other is truly representative of 1st Men magic.   Religion is sort of separated from magic in my mind.   And I could be way off here, too.   Just some rather new random thoughts that recently occurred to me. 

The prophecies mix up in my mind and always have.  That's because, I suspect, they're about more than one person and more than one event.  For the Westerosi, the AA or PtwP seems to be about conquering the Others and ending a long night.  For the Targs, It's always seemed mostly about bringing dragons back and renewing their power.    Dany did that.  I also think bringing a regulated seasonal cycle back might be part of it, in fact the main goal. 

But then there's the Prince that was Promised, such a strange phrase really. And I like what you say here - a prince, not god, not king etc.  A prince can sometimes be interchangeable with a king in meaning, but more often means a child of a king. A Prince that was Promised by whom?  To whom? And what was given up in exchange for this promise? There's a very Rumpelstiltskin feel to this - a pact made and a child promised as one part of the bargain.  It's why I've always wondered if Jon's main role is to be a sacrifice, that it is not magic he practices that marks him as special but reservoirs in his blood?

Also, if we take the main fact not the method from the show, the first Other seems to have been made.  And if we look at the Others themselves, they do seem a combination of fire and ice - ice to preserve them on the outside but still containing the fire of life.  Did the first Other have a particular fire and ice affinity balance that made him an ideal candidate for transformation?  And does Jon contain a similar balance?  One that Craster's sons might not have, because in addition to those affinities, Jon is a prince, a skinchanger/warg, with a greenseer gene and the blood of the kings of the First Men, the Dustins and their implied associations with necromancy, running through his veins?

It could be Jon is the Prince that was Promised to the Others, by the Children And First Men?

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

a weirwood tree, the eyes in the tree are described as "fierce."  ...   it might be a clue if fire + ice = fierce.

Remember, weirwoods fear fire. Fiery eyes in a tree would thus symbolize something like the destruction of the nature gods, maybe of "nature" itself. As in, the Long Night destroying all of the ecosystem, and not just "men."

As an ending, I guess you could call it "bittersweet."

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4 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Just a thought, if you take R+L=J but this could be very important in terms of the history of the world in the series. Great Other and The Red God is a fusion of this magic and Jon has the blood of Valyria and the North, just a thought. What do you guys think?

 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Could it be that a true union of powers of Ice and Fire is actually a mere mortal with no magic at all?   Is the combination of Fire and Ice mutually destructive?

 

It's easy to imagine that ice magic and fire magic are based on the same phenomenon, just as in real life both low temperatures and high temperatures have powerful effects. A fire mage just specialises at one end of the range.

So the person with both might be nothing, or might have full-spectrum powers. That would be handy.

4 hours ago, zandru said:

To be honest, I think Jon is dead. Remember that stabbing?

If only it could be so easy. I bet Jon is dead but not gone, just as the Hound is gone but not dead.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

In another thread, I was just noticing in Jon's dream that includes a weirwood tree, the eyes in the tree are described as "fierce." I haven't done a search on this word to see how it is used in other ways, or whether it is often associated with Jon, but it might be a clue if fire + ice = fierce.

Seams, that's beautiful! I bet you've hit the mark with that one.

6 minutes ago, zandru said:

Remember, weirwoods fear fire. Fiery eyes in a tree would thus symbolize something like the destruction of the nature gods, maybe of "nature" itself. As in, the Long Night destroying all of the ecosystem, and not just "men."

As an ending, I guess you could call it "bittersweet."

It's tricky. Ghost has that red/white colour combination, and his eyes are like hot coals. Maybe this is kind of heat and life surviving through winter?

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

In another thread, I was just noticing in Jon's dream that includes a weirwood tree, the eyes in the tree are described as "fierce." I haven't done a search on this word to see how it is used in other ways, or whether it is often associated with Jon, but it might be a clue if fire + ice = fierce.

I've only just started to think about the R'hllor religion. I think it might be significant that Thoros of Myr was sent to try to convert Robert Baratheon but he failed. Thoros is one of the first over the wall at Pyke (with Ser Jorah) and he wins the melee at the Hand's Tourney. I think we need to figure out Thoros as a key to the Red God.

I've always thought he was a key to figuring out fire magic and how it works but I've never made much sense of him in context.

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59 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

The prophecies mix up in my mind and always have.  That's because, I suspect, they're about more than one person and more than one event.  For the Westerosi, the AA or PtwP seems to be about conquering the Others and ending a long night.  For the Targs, It's always seemed mostly about bringing dragons back and renewing their power.    Dany did that.  I also think bringing a regulated seasonal cycle back might be part of it, in fact the main goal. 

But then there's the Prince that was Promised, such a strange phrase really. And I like what you say here - a prince, not god, not king etc.  A prince can sometimes be interchangeable with a king in meaning, but more often means a child of a king. A Prince that was Promised by whom?  To whom? And what was given up in exchange for this promise? There's a very Rumpelstiltskin feel to this - a pact made and a child promised as one part of the bargain.  It's why I've always wondered if Jon's main role is to be a sacrifice, that it is not magic he practices that marks him as special but reservoirs in his blood?

Also, if we take the main fact not the method from the show, the first Other seems to have been made.  And if we look at the Others themselves, they do seem a combination of fire and ice - ice to preserve them on the outside but still containing the fire of life.  Did the first Other have a particular fire and ice affinity balance that made him an ideal candidate for transformation?  And does Jon contain a similar balance?  One that Craster's sons might not have, because in addition to those affinities, Jon is a prince, a skinchanger/warg, with a greenseer gene and the blood of the kings of the First Men, the Dustins and their implied associations with necromancy, running through his veins?

It could be Jon is the Prince that was Promised to the Others, by the Children And First Men?

Hehehehehehehe!   Ah very good, Lady.   All I've got for prophecy is: Wut?  I don't get it and I'm the last person any where who would attempt to figure any of it out.   Take Patchface--please!  You've brought up some very new ideas here to me, so please forgive my ignorance and misinterpretation.   I'm on a nasty TWOW chapters binge right now.   I've listened to all these chapters probably at least 4 times each in the last week or so.   I feel like I'm looking for something but have no idea what it is.    With this in mind, I really scrutinized the Arianne chapters.  That's where our Prince is if you ask me.   Co-rulers?   No one above the other?  By "is" I mean the definition of "prince".   In this light a promised prince could be a ruler of the people and by the people.   Honestly, I can't identify a more fit ruler in this light than our Stark Targ.   Admittedly, I don't credit our boy with as much magic as you do though it is undeniably there.  So I was cruising along enjoying your breakdown then you shot me with the most feared material of all, tin foil.   Good grief would that be just rich if the prince that was promised really was promised to the Others?   I'm pretty sure that the best aim anyone has taken in a very long time.   Nice.   Really nice.  

I'm not so sure the Others were created.  I'm not so sure the Others aren't maybe the original people of Westeros, but that is for an Others discussion.  This here is about the fusion of ice and fire and what ramifications it has for each of our possible definitions.   Mormont's raven likes to say "King" around Jon.   Does that in any way detract from what we believe a prince is?   Jon dreams that the crypts of Winterfell are not his place more than once.  Does that alter his princeliness?   What is a prince who renounces his claim to lands and titles?  Arienne thinks often of being a princess and her claim to Dorne.  Now that she believes her position is secure she seems to be happy with that and doesn't really begrudge her dull brother a sort of kingship.   See, Jon doesn't seem to need a title or stuff.  He just wants to do his job.  Why would anyone just be happy to be a Princess (top dog, high lord) of Dorne?   Gads, now I wonder if silly bubble headed Arienne isn't a prototype for Jon, the Prince?    

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6 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Just a thought, if you take R+L=J but this could be very important in terms of the history of the world in the series. Great Other and The Red God is a fusion of this magic and Jon has the blood of Valyria and the North, just a thought. What do you guys think?

My thought is perhaps listen to what the man himself says.

Paraphrasing, why these three plot lines --- 2 @ the wall and one with dany & her dragons happens at about 5:11.

 

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

I've only just started to think about the R'hllor religion. I think it might be significant that Thoros of Myr was sent to try to convert Robert Baratheon but he failed. Thoros is one of the first over the wall at Pyke (with Ser Jorah) and he wins the melee at the Hand's Tourney. I think we need to figure out Thoros as a key to the Red God.

About this, Thoros was sent to try and convert Aerys which should have been easy. But the pyromancers stole his gig and he does acknowledge that he was a pretty terrible priest.

There are two important things, I think. The first one is that Thoros was there when Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies were laid at the bottom of the Iron Throne. The second thing is that unlike Melisandre, Thoros is willing to go to other sources of power. He and the brotherhood seek out the GoHH who is clearly tied to the old gods. And there's hollow hill and that throne of weirwood roots.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hehehehehehehe!   Ah very good, Lady.   All I've got for prophecy is: Wut?  I don't get it and I'm the last person any where who would attempt to figure any of it out.   Take Patchface--please!  You've brought up some very new ideas here to me, so please forgive my ignorance and misinterpretation.   I'm on a nasty TWOW chapters binge right now.   I've listened to all these chapters probably at least 4 times each in the last week or so.   I feel like I'm looking for something but have no idea what it is.    With this in mind, I really scrutinized the Arianne chapters.  That's where our Prince is if you ask me.   Co-rulers?   No one above the other?  By "is" I mean the definition of "prince".   In this light a promised prince could be a ruler of the people and by the people.   Honestly, I can't identify a more fit ruler in this light than our Stark Targ.   Admittedly, I don't credit our boy with as much magic as you do though it is undeniably there.  So I was cruising along enjoying your breakdown then you shot me with the most feared material of all, tin foil.   Good grief would that be just rich if the prince that was promised really was promised to the Others?   I'm pretty sure that the best aim anyone has taken in a very long time.   Nice.   Really nice.  

I'm not so sure the Others were created.  I'm not so sure the Others aren't maybe the original people of Westeros, but that is for an Others discussion.  This here is about the fusion of ice and fire and what ramifications it has for each of our possible definitions.   Mormont's raven likes to say "King" around Jon.   Does that in any way detract from what we believe a prince is?   Jon dreams that the crypts of Winterfell are not his place more than once.  Does that alter his princeliness?   What is a prince who renounces his claim to lands and titles?  Arienne thinks often of being a princess and her claim to Dorne.  Now that she believes her position is secure she seems to be happy with that and doesn't really begrudge her dull brother a sort of kingship.   See, Jon doesn't seem to need a title or stuff.  He just wants to do his job.  Why would anyone just be happy to be a Princess (top dog, high lord) of Dorne?   Gads, now I wonder if silly bubble headed Arienne isn't a prototype for Jon, the Prince?    

But a prince where magic is concerned is a whole other matter.  It's not the title that matters but the bloodline and royals have a habit of intermarrying with the strongest of bloodlines or with themselves to conserve magical bloodlines, as witness the Valyrians and in their turn the Targaryans. The Starks themselves seem to have intermarried  with  Marsh Kings, Warg Kings, Ghost Kings, whatever, but most importantly the Dustins, Kings of the First Men.

In any pact there must be a representative.  We're told the First Men made a pact with the Children, for instance.  Who represented them?  They likely elected someone as king for the purpose if they didn't have one already, and that might have been a Dustin, or an ancestor. And it would be this line that was expected at least initially to carry out and enforce the terms of the pact.  Moreover, if there was a prince that was promised, he or she would have to come from this line. It's possible that's why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, to observe the pact and provide a prince should the time come.

But back to fire and ice, there must have been a time when the planet's seasons were balanced, when extremes of Ice and fire didn't threaten entire continents.  Planetos has an extra physics force than Earth that must be kept stable - magic - for the planet to perform normally.  Mess with Earth's gravity, you can kill or almost kill the planet.  Mess with Planetos's magic, you can do the same.  And someone or something messed with it big-time.

Not being religious (and George isn't either) I have never bought into Rhlorr or the Great Other. They're just names that help focus a magic practioner's elemental and blood magic.  But magic always has a price, and that is life force of some kind, whether Varys's genitals, Stannis's sperm, unborn children, death or blood.  That's why there are no children in Asshai, city of magicians, because the magicians use up their sperm or wombs to practice magic.  I also believe that's why the city seems to be built of oily black stone when it likely was originally made of wood (who would build a city of the grisly stone?) - oily black stone is the detritus of magic over use, and the magicians of Asshai have leached the life out of even their buildings.  I think that's what started the grayscale disease too - when the Rhoynar singers called down the waters, the magic fall-out leached life from the people, almost turning them to stone, and is still doing so as a disease.  And there is of course ghost grass.

Basically then, this world is out of order because its magic is out of order, and to right the magic and thus the world, one thing seems the inevitable solution: death. Does the planet live to support life in the future and the people die? Or do the people live for now but the planet perishes altogether?

So to finally address the OP and try to rein in my tangents.  Yes, Jon represents a fusion of Ice and Fire.  And while that might be a good thing for the planet in terms of renewal, Ice and Fire are extremes of destruction to human life, and to me mean Ragnarok, or death.  So if he is one of the promised princes, who made the promise, to whom, and for what purpose?

I find the Children a little scary.

 

 

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Ice and Fire are associated to Dark and Light, respectively. Union of Maiden-made-of-Light and Lion of Night resulted in birth of God-on-earth. According to R+L=J, Union of Rheagar(Fire) and Lyanna(Ice) resulted in Jon Snow.

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9 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Just a thought, if you take R+L=J but this could be very important in terms of the history of the world in the series. Great Other and The Red God is a fusion of this magic and Jon has the blood of Valyria and the North, just a thought. What do you guys think?

Jon is all ice.  I don't believe R+L=J, to be honest.  We don't even know if there is such a thing as a Great Other.  The Red God hasn't bothered to make an appearance either.  You know what it sounds like to me?  The Great Other, The Red God, and the R+L=J are dreamed up by its followers.  :D

Edited by The Transporter

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On 9/21/2018 at 5:39 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There are two important things, I think. The first one is that Thoros was there when Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies were laid at the bottom of the Iron Throne. The second thing is that unlike Melisandre, Thoros is willing to go to other sources of power. He and the brotherhood seek out the GoHH who is clearly tied to the old gods. And there's hollow hill and that throne of weirwood roots.

Agree. To the bold...  this plays at least a part in the resurrection bonanza we [sort of] see happening in the Riverlands IMO. 

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