US Politics: Red Whine Hangover

[Zorral]

And here, in the USA, the nazi regalia in the 1930's,  and all over now too, these days -- mated then as now with the flag of the war of the rebellion:

http://www.citypaper.com/news/features/bcpnews-our-town-what-the-rise-of-nazism-looked-like-in-baltimore-during-the-1930s-20170214-htmlstory.html

[SweetPea]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

No. There can be no 'buts' in that sentence. If vigilance is important, then it's important. 'Buts' just undercut that. If people feel this is a false alarm, fine. But criticising people for being vigilant cannot help but have the effect of decreasing vigilance. 

Oh come on, are you honestly saying you haven't heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? 

[Chaircat Meow]

10 hours ago, mormont said:

It does appear as if large parts of that argument are based on the common fallacy though, where someone makes a comparison between the US and 1930s Germany, invoking Hitler, and this is rebutted by complaining that the comparison is faulty because the modern US isn't like 1940s Germany. The point is not whether the US is there, but whether it is moving in that direction. You have not really made any substantial argument against that latter point, preferring to make arguments against the former. 

First, even supposing this is a fallacy some people are making it clearly hasn't been made by me in this thread. 

We can know this because the passage I quoted and responded to from the Browning article in this thread was comparing Nazi Germany and the possible future America of Trump (i.e. the end result of the rise of illiberalism) So the argument couldn't have been of the form described above by you. Rather, it  went that Nazi Germany and the possible future America of Trump were too dissimilar to merit meaningful comparison. 

In addition the line you actually quoted from me was saying something else again about the vacuity of the comparison drawn between Nazi and Republican abortion policy by OldGimletEye. 

Secondly, it is correct to say that an argument stating the present day USA is on the road to becoming something quite like Nazi Germany in the relevant respects will not be refuted by pointing out that the USA is not currently quite like Nazi Germany in the relevant respects. The difficulty with your argument here is that no one has made this point. 

Rather, what they have said is that if the present day USA is on the road to becoming something quite like Nazi Germany in the relevant respects then we would expect to see commonalities between the present day USA and Germany before the Nazis had consolidated their rule and we don't.

For example, SeanF, in his posts, pointed out that the level of political violence and disillusionment with the political system that did exist in Weimar Germany does not exist in the USA. Another example of this kind of argument was mine in the last thread where I argued that if the USA was on the road to a totalitarian takeover we would expect Trump to be making an effort to take out opponents by force and to build up such institutional power that he could rig or ignore the results of elections and as this is not happening we can reasonably deduce that the USA is not on the road to a totalitarian takeover. 

 

 

[TrueMetis]

4 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Oh come on, are you honestly saying you haven't heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? 

The boy who cried wolf is, and always has been, a stupid fucking story. If someone yells wolf you check it out, every time. Much like if the fire alarm goes off, even if it goes off all the fucking time and there is never a fire, you exit the building. You don't ignore warnings of danger because the other warnings have been false.  And a person who does is a goddamn idiot.

[SweetPea]

3 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

The boy who cried wolf is, and always has been, a stupid fucking story. If someone yells wolf you check it out, every time. Much like if the fire alarm goes off, even if it goes off all the fucking time and there is never a fire, you exit the building. You don't ignore warnings of danger because the other warnings have been false.  And a person who does is a goddamn idiot.

It's fortunate that you mentioned the fire alarm as an example, because I happen to live in a dormitory where a new fire alarm system has been installed a year ago, and they're so sensitive they go off several times a week. Ever since then, less and less people exit the building when the alarm sounds. A ton of people stay inside, whereas with the old alarm system, that never happened. So no, it's not a stupid fucking story. It's the turth, it's how people work, whether you like it or not.

[Rippounet]

16 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

if the USA was on the road to a totalitarian takeover we would expect Trump to be making an effort to take out opponents by force and to build up such institutional power that he could rig or ignore the results of elections

And we haven't seen anything in this direction, uh? Not even a tiny itsy little something?

[TrueMetis]

3 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

It's fortunate that you mentioned the fire alarm as an example, because I happen to live in a dormitory where a new fire alarm system has been installed a year ago, and they're so sensitive they go off several times a week. Ever since then, less and less people exit the building when the alarm sounds. A ton of people stay inside, whereas with the old alarm system, that never happened. So no, it's not a stupid fucking story. It's the turth, it's how people work, whether you like it or not. 

I used the example for a similar reason, no one in my building stays in when the alarm goes off. The people in your building are idiots.

ETA: and the fact that people do stupid fucking things, like ignore a fire alarm, doesn't make those things less stupid.

[Rippounet]

1 minute ago, SweetPea said:

It's fortunate that you mentioned the fire alarm as an example, because I happen to live in a dormitory where a new fire alarm system has been installed a year ago, and they're so sensitive they go off several times a week. Ever since then, less and less people exit the building when the alarm sounds. A ton of people stay inside, whereas with the old alarm system, that never happened. So no, it's not a stupid fucking story. It's the turth, it's how people work, whether you like it or not.

So if there is ever a fire in your dorm, some people may die.

Great example, dude.

[Errant Bard]

20 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Oh come on, are you honestly saying you haven't heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? 

Interesting that you put on the same level actual history, of what really happened when Europe slipped, to a folk story.

[Chaircat Meow]

20 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Did you know that in Nazi Germany, providing an abortion to an Aryan woman was a capital offense? Just wondering...

Aren't you forgetting legal discrimination against homosexuals a bit fast? You even copy-pasted that part...

Less rights for women, discrimination against sexual or ethnic minorities... That does sound familiar somehow. Gee, it's almost like these Nazis were conservative, y'know? If I were you I'm not sure I would necessarily argue that the social policies of American conservatives and those of German Nazis are "diametrically opposite," because, well, that's bullshit. The Nazis were socially conservative, everyone know that. In fact, American conservatives didn't find Nazism that outlandish in the thirties... Conversely, it has been said that Hitler was inspired by American ethno-nationalism. How weird is history, uh?

Guess that explains why abortion and homosexuality were criminalised and Ukrainians (ethnic minority) starved in a man-made famine in Soviet Russia under Stalin then.

The difference between Republican arguments against abortion and those of Communists and Fascists is that the former are premised on the need to protect innocent life, the latter aim to use female fertility to advance the aims of the state. And the difference in moral terms is as between night and day.

[TrueMetis]

Are we seriously still pretending that Republicans give a fuck about protecting innocent life?

[SweetPea]

14 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I used the example for a similar reason, no one in my building stays in when the alarm goes off. The people in your building are idiots.

ETA: and the fact that people do stupid fucking things, like ignore a fire alarm, doesn't make those things less stupid.

And the lesson of that story isn't that you should ignore the alarm, it's that you shouldn't create too many false alarms.

12 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

So if there is ever a fire in your dorm, some people may die.

Great example, dude.

Yes, it's a great example. If there is ever a nazi uprising in your country, some people may die, because they won't listen to your warnings after so many false alarms.

11 minutes ago, Errant Bard said:

Interesting that you put on the same level actual history, of what really happened when Europe slipped, to a folk story.

Lol...

[TrueMetis]

10 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

And the lesson of that story isn't that you should ignore the alarm, it's that you shouldn't create too many false alarms.

No it's "idiots will ignore danger". This is the same problem as the idiots who, after a disease outbreak is contained and dealt with properly, proceed to wonder what the big deal was. These people are idiots who learned the wrong lesson.

[Rippounet]

6 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Guess that explains why abortion and homosexuality were criminalised and Ukrainians (ethnic minority) starved in a man-made famine in Soviet Russia under Stalin then.

And abortion not only became legal after Stalin's death, but it remained the main contraceptive method in the Soviet Union until its collapse.

As regards homosexuality... How was it seen in the West in the same period already? Remind me... When was sodomy decriminalized in the US for instance?

Finally, minorities... That's a mixed bag. But tell me, where was Stalin born again? By comparison, how long did it take for a member of an ethnic minority to lead the US?
And how about the UK?

6 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

The difference between Republican arguments against abortion and those of Communists and Fascists is that the former are premised on the need to protect innocent life, the latter aim to use female fertility to advance the aims of the state. And the difference in moral terms is as between night and day.

I'm sure the woman forced to have an unwanted child is super sensitive to that "difference in moral terms." I mean, that must make such a huge difference in her life, y'know?

[Chaircat Meow]

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

And abortion not only became legal after Stalin's death, but it remained the main contraceptive method in the Soviet Union until its collapse.

As regards homosexuality... How was it seen in the West in the same period already? Remind me... When was sodomy decriminalized in the US for instance?

Finally, minorities... That's a mixed bag. But tell me, where was Stalin born again? By comparison, how long did it take for a member of an ethnic minority to lead the US?
And how about the UK?

I'm sure the woman forced to have an unwanted child is super sensitive to that "difference in moral terms." I mean, that must make such a huge difference in her life, y'know?

1. Whooo, defending the Soviet Union. What's *is* your point? 

2. On the bolded, 1874. 

[Rippounet]

16 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

And the lesson of that story isn't that you should ignore the alarm, it's that you shouldn't create too many false alarms.

No. The lesson of that story is that you should take some things seriously. In Aesop's fable, the boy creates false alarms for fun. not because he is overly paranoid about wolves. In other words, the problem isn't that the boy is wrong, but that he is deliberately lying.

[Martell Spy]

45 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

And we haven't seen anything in this direction, uh? Not even a tiny itsy little something?

We are clearly on the road to Republicans taking away voting rights from Democrats and perhaps moving us to a one-party system. However, this is contingent on the Republicans winning enough elections and perhaps the SC maintaining enough respectability and support to strip and dillute voting rights. Since the Republicans haven't won all these elections yet, critics will claim we have not even started down the road yet. But, Republicans have already begun dilluting and stripping voting rights.

[DMC]

I'm a little confused as to why this US/Nazi argument is now about abortion.  The Republican Party has been pro-life for at least 40 years.  Now, one could argue they've been on the road to the current type of radical politics since that point, but the difference between now and Reagan, Gingrich, Bush, even Tea-Party-era GOPers is what the administration is doing and the type of politics it uses, e.g. the casual and brazen violations of law, the detention camps, the overt and violent fascist supporters, etc.  In comparison, the GOP wanting to outlaw abortion is a constant.

[Ran]

Stay polite, folks.

[Rippounet]

9 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

What's *is* your point?

I'm just having fun.

You claimed conservatives don't have "the slenderer grip on truth" as liberals claim.
You walked a fine line on Trump, admitting that he would indeed like to be an autocrat while saying at the same time that there's nothing to worry about.
You tried to show us how different American conservatism and Nazism are on social issues, thus making all comparisons between the present and the 1930s ridiculous ("cranks and trolls").
And of course you told us how morally superior it is to impose an unwanted baby on a woman if it's done in the name of the sanctity of human life rather than in the name of a state.

I don't really have a point. I'm mostly waiting for you to do better. Until now you've mostly been using old conservative rotes, and I think by now you should start realizing that most of them (if not all) make for really weak arguments if you're trying to have an actual exchange with people.

9 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

2. On the bolded, 1874. 

Fair enough. I'll give you that one.