Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Cas Stark]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I wouldn’t put it past Martin to write a series in which Richard III (ie Tyrion) wins. Of course, that makes him a very different character to the insufferable show-runners’ self-insert that we got in the second half of the series.  Like every other main character, he shared the same name, and did some of the same things as his book counterpart, but otherwise bore no relation.

I'm personally totally over Tyrion and have been since Dance, he's an absolute POS and a few nice gestures doesn't change that.....but it sure feels like GRRM is gearing him up for a redemption.... 

 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm personally totally over Tyrion and have been since Dance, he's an absolute POS and a few nice gestures doesn't change that.....but it sure feels like GRRM is gearing him up for a redemption.... 

 

Well, he starts TWOW by fantasising about strangling Penny, so I’m doubtful about the redemption.  My impression is that his murder of Shae (totally different to the show) was the point where he went beyond redemption. 

[Cas Stark]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well, he starts TWOW by fantasising about strangling Penny, so I’m doubtful about the redemption.  My impression is that his murder of Shae (totally different to the show) was the point where he went beyond redemption. 

I'm not sure GRRM thinks that, but, we're back where we started and will always remain,  since there is very little chance he ever finishes the series, and since it looks like Winds will continue at the same extremely slow pace of the last two books, we aren't going to get a final answer on that beyond the show ending.  

[$erPounce]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's 100% fan fiction.

I think there will be some similarities between the end of Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, but of course in a completely different context and with a different course.

 

 

There is a possibility that Bran Stark will become a controlling force at the end of the book series. The character has very supernatural skills like confusing people. There are theories that show that Bran also has the ability to influence the course of time. David Friedman Benioff and Daniel Weiss wanted to minimize the use of magical elements in the TV series, which led to a very unrealistic way in which Bran is crowned king. If Bran Stark were to get governmental powers in the books at the end, I think that would be as a result of his paranormal abilities. I do not believe that he will become king, but rather that he will be seen as the embodiment of a deity. The problem, of course, is that the books are not really moving towards that moment, Bran has only just begun to learn how to use his powers in the cave of the Three-Eyed-Crow.

 

I do see Daenerys grow into a "dark" personality who will commit acts that are less morally righteous. The books seem to be working towards this, now that Daenerys is surrounded by advisors and allies who pursue their own interests, or are more inclined to commit violence. Just think of Tyrion, Victarion, Daario and maybe even Euron. She will probably set foot on Westeros after Aegon VI has conquered the iron throne, who will gain a good reputation with the small folk. Aegon will also have some allies who can cause violent conflict, such as Jon Connington or Arianne. A Second Dance of Dragons can have serious consequences for King's Landing. The destruction of King's Landing will not happen like in the TV series... and if anyone will be triggered by ringing bells, it will be Jon Connington.

 

I think Jon Snow's storyline will be very different in the TV series. In the books Jon has a serious desire to become Lord of Winterfell, a right that he will defend vigorously, especially after his resurrection making him a more aggressive personality (if we may expect as happened with Catelyn Tully). There is a lot of uncertainty about Jon's future in the books. What function will he fulfil in the North, knowing that Rickon Stark can also claim the title of Lord of Winterfell? To what extent will he be involved in the game of thrones in the South? How will he meet Daenerys? How will he react to the coronation of Aegon, his supposed half-brother? To what extent will he participate in the conflict against the Others?

The TV series is very different from the books as far as Jon's storyline is concerned. Jon in the TV series is an altruistic personality determined to fight the Others, but is murdered by "racist" people from the Night Watch who are dissatisfied that he wants to make peace with the wildlings. In the books Jon has a certain ego and tries to interfere in the politics of the North. Jon collaborates with Stannis and Melissandre to pursue his ambitions as well. His continuous violation of neutrality is the reason why he is murdered. In the TV series his attention goes primarily to the conflict against the Others, in the books that is not the case, his focus is Winterfell.

Jon's storyline in the books is clearly more interwoven with Winterfell than in the TV series. Should he somehow be told that he is not Eddard's son, but Rhaegar's, then I think there will be a serious identity crisis, which cannot be compared to the TV series. By the way, I believe Jon's real name is Aemon (see theory and reasoning here). Based on some similar patterns in comparison with Maester Aemon, I don't think Jon Snow will be on the Iron Throne. But I do not exactly believe that Jon will kill Daenerys or be sent to a no longer functional Night Watch.

 

Sansa's coronation to independent queen of the North is nonsense. First of all, the Trident is not part of the kingdom, which was the case in the books. Besides, according to Robbs Will, Sansa has no claim on Winterfell (so far). Third, I don't believe her North will pursue independence before the Iron Islands and Dorne do. It is possible that the Seven Kingdoms will fall apart completely in the books, but an artificial creation like the "Six Kingdoms" is unrealistic.

 

Cersei will die much sooner in the books, and certainly not because of a pile of bricks. I already expect her to die before the coronation of Aegon VI (halfway or the end of The Winds of Winter). David Friedman Benioff and Daniel Weiss decided to combine the roles of Cersei and Aegon in a sloppy way, which was a very bad decision. The Cersei from the books wouldn't be able to usurp and hold the throne, she's far too incompetent for that.

[SeanF]

I like Jon in the books, but he’s no Boy Scout.  He is quite ruthless.  I find his proxy war against the Boltons in ADWD a joy to read.  Dany, by contrast, is exasperating, in her efforts to make peace with a bunch of shitheads, who deserve to be strung up.

Bran?  One could almost think the author has lost interest in him.  We’ve had three chapters in 20 Years.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Those are so vague as to be meaningless.

I guess its a matter of personal perspective.  I find it to be very meaningful that Dany becomes a villain and will die and that Jon will end up back where he starts, in my opinion.  I'm sure the circumstances and 'journey' will be quite different from the show, but the end point will be the same, to me, that is not meaningless and the same goes for the rest of the major character end points.

[The Dragon Demands]

yeah

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

 No.  The ones I specifically cited were so vague as to be meaningless:  "Sansa and Tyrion become political leaders of something"

Well that's a no-brainer.

As for Daenerys becoming an outright "Villain"?  Bad fanfiction.

I think that she will be *perceived* as a villain by many people in Westeros.  If Volantis, and other free cities, explode in revolution in her name, I’m sure the fate of many slave masters and their families will be horrific (consider Haiti, or the South American wars of independence as comparisons).  Refugees will bring awful tales West.  Slavery may be a crime, but the upper classes tend to empathise with their foreign counterparts, regardless.

Arianne Martell will doubtless spread the tale that she murdered her brother and husband to get ahead, as well as repeating the tales of bathing in blood and torturing lovers, and Dany’s entourage will include a reviled dwarf, iron born, Dothraki, sellswords, and Unsullied. A hard fight in which Kings Landing burns could do even more harm to her reputation.

That said, I expect the conflict against the Others to be the climax of tale, not the conflict for power in Kings Landing.

[The Bard of Banefort]

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes.  Dany becomes a villain and is killed 100%.  Jon returns to the wall 100%.  Bran becomes king 100%.  Arya leaves Westeros 98%.  Sansa becomes queen 95%.  Tyrion is back on top 100%. Jamie and Cersei die together 98%.  

I think Sansa will become Lady of Winterfell rather than queen, but other than that, I agree. D&D were not going to open themselves up to more sexism accusations by having their feminist icon go postal and then get shanked by her boyfriend. (There's also the fact that GRRM added a new Daenerys in Fire and Blood, which came out a few months before season 8, only to have her die from something called "the Shivers." That sounds like foreshadowing to me).

On 12/9/2020 at 6:36 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

....HBO's new leadership officially ordered a True Blood reboot.  

A show which infamously went bad mid-run when they started pandering the actors as stereotypes of themselves (Season 4 onwards starting in 2011)

https://io9.gizmodo.com/hbos-bringing-true-blood-back-from-the-dead-1845843995 

. . . WHAT?

I personally really liked True Blood. I found it funny and entertaining, and still enjoy rewatching the earlier seasons. That said, it seems crazy to reboot the show only a few years later, and with a brand new cast playing the same characters. Maybe they want to stay more faithful to the books, but I read a few of the books and they were pretty terrible, to be honest. 

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think Sansa will become Lady of Winterfell rather than queen, but other than that, I agree. D&D were not going to open themselves up to more sexism accusations by having their feminist icon go postal and then get shanked by her boyfriend. (There's also the fact that GRRM added a new Daenerys in Fire and Blood, which came out a few months before season 8, only to have her die from something called "the Shivers." That sounds like foreshadowing to me).

. . . WHAT?

I personally really liked True Blood. I found it funny and entertaining, and still enjoy rewatching the earlier seasons. That said, it seems crazy to reboot the show only a few years later, and with a brand new cast playing the same characters. Maybe they want to stay more faithful to the books, but I read a few of the books and they were pretty terrible, to be honest. 

D & D thought Jon stabbing Daenerys was wonderfully romantic, the same way they thought of Tyrion strangling Shae (a very ugly act in the books).  I don’t think they expected it (or Season 8 generally) to be so badly received.  They had their own take on the story, in which the people to be admired were not characters like Ned, Dany, Jon, but rather Tywin, Tyrion, Cersei, LF and Ramsay.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 12/9/2020 at 12:26 AM, The Dragon Demands said:

The problem we're facing has been repeated since Season 5:  major news outlets don't want to report on criticism.

It varied from one news outlet to the next, but whichever season they turned against the show....they just plain stopped reporting on it.

Think of how much...REALLY incriminating stuff, was in that Last Watch documentary alone.....and no news sites were reporting on it in detail.

Same thing is happening with "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon" now.   A handful of fans are scrutinizing it and circulating the worst parts.

There's this sharp dichotomy between "blind hype fans who love D&D unconditionally so they don't question the show" and "everyone who turned on D&D, so they're too disgusted to 'research' what happened behind the scenes, even to expose them"

REALLY no middle ground.  Investigative journalism.  I've seen more discussion about behind the scenes goings on in the Star Wars Prequel and Sequel trilogies, than for this decade-long TV show.  

How the heck do these sites decide what's "newsworthy"?  ( Io9, TheRinger, Vulture, etc.)  Because I STILL haven't finished unpacking all the behind the scenes Season 8 stuff (though I'm getting close).  

I think it's probably because most readers simply aren't very interested in FCKAD. It wasn't a bestseller. Most of the people who hated the way that GOT ended don't want to reminisce about the show.

[Mystical]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

Bran?  One could almost think the author has lost interest in him.  We’ve had three chapters in 20 Years.

So D&D were actually faithful to the books there. They left him out of an entire Season and when he came back he got little screentime and then became king. And it will be as nonsensical in the books as it was in the show (though not only because of Bran barely being in the story).

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

So D&D were actually faithful to the books there. They left him out of an entire Season and when he came back he got little screentime and then became king. And it will be as nonsensical in the books as it was in the show (though not only because of Bran barely being in the story).

They should have written Bran out of the story, as they had no idea what to do with him.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 12/6/2020 at 4:29 PM, Lord Varys said:

To be honest, I don't have high hopes for ASoIaF as a franchise. 'House of the Dragon' doesn't offer a new concept. It has more dragons, but fewer plot lines, and it is just another succession/civil war ... one with fewer sympathetic characters.

I'd not be surprised if this failed to revive the franchise. Granted, it is infinitely better than the 'Long Night' nonsense, but one has to wonder whether people are going to associate 'good storytelling' with dragons and women insisting they should be queen... Those are basically the main themes of the worst seasons of GoT.

I feel the same way. For all the valid complaints to make about GOT, most of the focus of the criticism lobbed at Season 8 surrounded how Daenerys went from being the Chosen One to a madwoman with a dagger in her heart. The Dance ends with Rhaenyra being chased out of King's Landing and fed to her brother's dragon. All the other prominent women die miserable deaths as well. It's not the type of ending that is going to go over well with today's hyper-critical media landscape.

[Mystical]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They should have written Bran out of the story, as they had no idea what to do with him.  

If they could have, they would have. As they did with Rickon. But clearly they were unable to get rid of Bran for some reason.

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I feel the same way. For all the valid complaints to make about GOT, most of the focus of the criticism lobbed at Season 8 surrounded how Daenerys went from being the Chosen One to a madwoman with a dagger in her heart. The Dance ends with Rhaenyra being chased out of King's Landing and fed to her brother's dragon. All the other prominent women die miserable deaths as well. It's not the type of ending that is going to go over well with today's hyper-critical media landscape.

And there are probably some people like me, who don't care at all. I'm tired of all things Targ. All the material we get takes place in the same 300 years of Targ reign over and over again. I haven't even read F&B because I just don't care. Something like Dunk&Egg I would be more interested in even though Egg is a Targ and it's in those 300 years as well. But a knight on adventures across the continent is more entertaining than those entitled, messiah-complex having, incest-loving, pyromaniac fuck ups and their meager 300 years of time in Westeros being revisited over and over again. Yawn.

I wanted the Long Night prequel not because of anything associated with the Long Night but because of the look we would have gotten into Westeros thousands of years ago. Finally something new. Or do something with the mysterious places on the planet where you can basically go crazy creatively because they are utterly unexplored in the story.

[Mystical]

double post

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Mystical said:

If they could have, they would have. As they did with Rickon. But clearly they were unable to get rid of Bran for some reason.

And there are probably some people like me, who don't care at all. I'm tired of all things Targ. All the material we get takes place in the same 300 years of Targ reign over and over again. I haven't even read F&B because I just don't care. Something like Dunk&Egg I would be more interested in even though Egg is a Targ and it's in those 300 years as well. But a knight on adventures across the continent is more entertaining than those entitled, messiah-complex having, incest-loving, pyromaniac fuck ups and their meager 300 years of time in Westeros being revisited over and over again. Yawn.

I wanted the Long Night prequel not because of anything associated with the Long Night but because of the look we would have gotten into Westeros thousands of years ago. Finally something new. Or do something with the mysterious places on the planet where you can basically go crazy creatively because they are utterly unexplored in the story.

I see it differently.  I never tire of reading about people like the Visconti, the Borgias, Roman Emperors and the Romanovs.

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think Sansa will become Lady of Winterfell rather than queen, but other than that, I agree. D&D were not going to open themselves up to more sexism accusations by having their feminist icon go postal and then get shanked by her boyfriend. (There's also the fact that GRRM added a new Daenerys in Fire and Blood, which came out a few months before season 8, only to have her die from something called "the Shivers." That sounds like foreshadowing to me).

It is noteworthy that so far no one confirmed that they got the Dany ending from George. Neither her as 'Mad Queen' nor her death are things that can be identified as the three big moments they took from George ... which are basically the only things from the book outline left in the story. For Shireen and 'Hold the Door' we have confirmation. Everything else would be their invention or very loosely based on ASoIaF - stuff like there being ice demons who are eventually defeated, there being a 'Euron Greyjoy', a Golden Company, etc.

Turning Daenerys into 'a villain' is exactly the cheap move they would do to have the best finale. And I'd have done that, too, since this was actually better than Cersei being the big bad in the end, of course ... because that would have just been boring. The moment they decided not to go with the War for the Dawn as the great and final climax - using the silly 'who gets the stupid chair' plot as finale - it was clear they would have to use a twist there to make things interesting.

Because, frankly, Cersei was ridiculously bad villain, and the entire plot of her getting power and staying there for how many seasons was neither very interesting nor did she work as a villain - in part because their Cersei has nothing to do with the book character, but also because she lacked the means to be particularly threatening or dangerous.

But the books will have Aegon and Arianne and Jon Connington ... and more importantly, Euron, most likely in combination with a mad Cersei, Qyburn, and his creature. Those will make both a powerful opposition as well as dreadful villains if it comes to death - especially Cersei-Euron, but also Aegon and his gang if they go off the deep end, acquire dragons, etc.

Meaning whatever clash is going to come there will be completely different.

32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I feel the same way. For all the valid complaints to make about GOT, most of the focus of the criticism lobbed at Season 8 surrounded how Daenerys went from being the Chosen One to a madwoman with a dagger in her heart. The Dance ends with Rhaenyra being chased out of King's Landing and fed to her brother's dragon. All the other prominent women die miserable deaths as well. It's not the type of ending that is going to go over well with today's hyper-critical media landscape.

Well, the Dance as such is likely going to be changed considerably in an adaptation. As I laid out repeatedly since we discuss the prospect of such a show, the entire story is completely anticlimactic - I think, we should even assume that it was written to resemble real history - which isn't always great material for an entertaining novel or movies - more than the outline of a novel.

Most big battles and tantalizing events happen either early on in the war (Storm's End, Blood & Cheese, dragon battle at Rook's Rest, Arrek and Erryk, etc.) or in the middle (fall of KL, storming of the Dragonpit, Riverlands and Tumbleton battles), while Rhaenyra's eventual end and the downfall of Aegon II all are pitiful little episodes nobody would want to watch as 'the grand finale' of a TV show. After all, you expect the stakes to rise, not to get lower with each season. But that's what happens during the Dance as the dragons and many Targaryens die in rather stupid little incidents, with nobody but Daeron the Daring using his dragon properly as a weapon of war.

If you were writing a novel or a series of novels then there would be at least one - or the - deciding dragon battle take place at the very end of the war and not in the middle of the war (which is what happens with Aemond and Daemon). I expect George to rectify this by giving us a late epilogue to the Dance with Aemond's son by Alys and Rhaena/Morning and whoever else might claim the Cannibal, Silverwing, and whatever dragons are going to hatch during the reign of Aegon III.

But, of course, with Daenerys actually pretty much being turned into Rhaenyra in GoT there is actually little point in telling exactly the same story again in HoD. And the parallels there are pretty obvious - Dany executes people left and right, just as Rhaenyra does ... with the difference that Rhaenyra in FaB actually has a better motivation to do this than Dany.

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is noteworthy that so far no one confirmed that they got the Dany ending from George. Neither her as 'Mad Queen' nor her death are things that can be identified as the three big moments they took from George ... which are basically the only things from the book outline left in the story. For Shireen and 'Hold the Door' we have confirmation. Everything else would be their invention or very loosely based on ASoIaF - stuff like there being ice demons who are eventually defeated, there being a 'Euron Greyjoy', a Golden Company, etc.

Turning Daenerys into 'a villain' is exactly the cheap move they would do to have the best finale. And I'd have done that, too, since this was actually better than Cersei being the big bad in the end, of course ... because that would have just been boring. The moment they decided not to go with the War for the Dawn as the great and final climax - using the silly 'who gets the stupid chair' plot as finale - it was clear they would have to use a twist there to make things interesting.

Because, frankly, Cersei was ridiculously bad villain, and the entire plot of her getting power and staying there for how many seasons was neither very interesting nor did she work as a villain - in part because their Cersei has nothing to do with the book character, but also because she lacked the means to be particularly threatening or dangerous.

But the books will have Aegon and Arianne and Jon Connington ... and more importantly, Euron, most likely in combination with a mad Cersei, Qyburn, and his creature. Those will make both a powerful opposition as well as dreadful villains if it comes to death - especially Cersei-Euron, but also Aegon and his gang if they go off the deep end, acquire dragons, etc.

Meaning whatever clash is going to come there will be completely different.

Well, the Dance as such is likely going to be changed considerably in an adaptation. As I laid out repeatedly since we discuss the prospect of such a show, the entire story is completely anticlimactic - I think, we should even assume that it was written to resemble real history - which isn't always great material for an entertaining novel or movies - more than the outline of a novel.

Most big battles and tantalizing events happen either early on in the war (Storm's End, Blood & Cheese, dragon battle at Rook's Rest, Arrek and Erryk, etc.) or in the middle (fall of KL, storming of the Dragonpit, Riverlands and Tumbleton battles), while Rhaenyra's eventual end and the downfall of Aegon II all are pitiful little episodes nobody would want to watch as 'the grand finale' of a TV show. After all, you expect the stakes to rise, not to get lower with each season. But that's what happens during the Dance as the dragons and many Targaryens die in rather stupid little incidents, with nobody but Daeron the Daring using his dragon properly as a weapon of war.

If you were writing a novel or a series of novels then there would be at least one - or the - deciding dragon battle take place at the very end of the war and not in the middle of the war (which is what happens with Aemond and Daemon). I expect George to rectify this by giving us a late epilogue to the Dance with Aemond's son by Alys and Rhaena/Morning and whoever else might claim the Cannibal, Silverwing, and whatever dragons are going to hatch during the reign of Aegon III.

But, of course, with Daenerys actually pretty much being turned into Rhaenyra in GoT there is actually little point in telling exactly the same story again in HoD. And the parallels there are pretty obvious - Dany executes people left and right, just as Rhaenyra does ... with the difference that Rhaenyra in FaB actually has a better motivation to do this than Dany.

What I find puzzling though, is if you are going for Daenerys as villain, why leave it to the last moment?  They could actually have portrayed her acting like Timur the Lame in Essos, leaving cities in flames and pyramids of heads in her wake, and then pursuing a ruthless scorched-earth policy against her enemies in Westeros (and I don’t think it would have damaged her popularity among fans, either).  Then, the sack and burning of Kings Landing would seem natural.  Instead, they tried to make out that the execution of slavers and the Tarlys was evidence of villainy.  That’s like saying that killing Frey’s and Boltons and Janos Slynt is evidence of villainy.