Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[BlackLightning]

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I know it’s a bit controversial on this board, but I’m pretty sure that person is Sandor.

https://media.giphy.com/media/mxDZecDOOsWCA/giphy.gif

All I'm going to say about that is that if Sansa marries Sandor, she could technically keep her last name and pass it onto any children they would have as she outranks him by a lot.

I mean, come on...if you had a choice, would you rather be a Clegane or a Stark?

Frankly, I think the series might be better off with an ending where Arya is the girl who settles down, get married and has a castle full of children and Sansa is the one who decides to remain (mostly) single and childless for the sake of politics and personal freedom. Like a Barbrey Dustin. Or maybe she becomes like a Donella Hornwood who, despite desiring a spouse and an heir, is very selective.

I'll never forget how inspired Sansa was by the relationship between Ellaria Sand and Oberyn Martell. Maybe Sansa is becoming the Oberyn and she has to kiss a couple more frogs and fight off a couple more dogs before she finds an Ellaria.

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I always interpreted the Unkiss as some kind of premonition/green dream, but the analyses I’ve seen from people who have read George’s other work have said that it’s very reminiscent of how he writes empaths/telepaths, which would point towards a warging situation. (I’m not a big sci-fi fan, so I haven’t read any of George’s other stuff, although I plan on reading Fevre Dream eventually).

If we have to get back on the SanSan merry-go-round, I do think that there was a lot more to the whole UnKiss situation than what meets the eye.

For one, it's one of the biggest examples of the unreliable narrator/false memory thing that is one of keystones of the entire series. Honestly, it's a huge thing that doesn't get talked about enough in the fandom. GRRM has gone on record to say that there will be more instances of the Unkiss situation in the future with one of them being huge.

Secondly (and most importantly), I have heard only a little about the green dream thing. I don't think it's a green dream. I think what happened was a warging situation. Because don't forget, Sandor wanted to take Sansa away and leave King's Landing....and then he wanted rape Sansa?! I'm still very confused about his logic but I think that he has always been more than just fond of Sansa. He ended up doing none of those things when he could have. Instead, he stopped short at holding her at swordpoint and asked her to sing to him before he dipped. As if he was under some sort of spell.

Why couldn't it be a situation where Sansa did some low-level skinchanging. Why not? She did some skinchanging later on in A Storm of Swords with that one blind dog in the Vale.

 

By the way, Nightflyers and A Song for Lya are very good stories written by GRRM and both (here's a minor spoiler alert) deal with some type of empath and telepath

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

https://media.giphy.com/media/mxDZecDOOsWCA/giphy.gif

All I'm going to say about that is that if Sansa marries Sandor, she could technically keep her last name and pass it onto any children they would have as she outranks him by a lot.

I mean, come on...if you had a choice, would you rather be a Clegane or a Stark?

Frankly, I think the series might be better off with an ending where Arya is the girl who settles down, get married and has a castle full of children and Sansa is the one who decides to remain (mostly) single and childless for the sake of politics and personal freedom. Like a Barbrey Dustin. Or maybe she becomes like a Donella Hornwood who, despite desiring a spouse and an heir, is very selective.

I'll never forget how inspired Sansa was by the relationship between Ellaria Sand and Oberyn Martell. Maybe Sansa is becoming the Oberyn and she has to kiss a couple more frogs and fight off a couple more dogs before she finds an Ellaria.

If we have to get back on the SanSan merry-go-round, I do think that there was a lot more to the whole UnKiss situation than what meets the eye.

For one, it's one of the biggest examples of the unreliable narrator/false memory thing that is one of keystones of the entire series. Honestly, it's a huge thing that doesn't get talked about enough in the fandom. GRRM has gone on record to say that there will be more instances of the Unkiss situation in the future with one of them being huge.

Secondly (and most importantly), I have heard only a little about the green dream thing. I don't think it's a green dream. I think what happened was a warging situation. Because don't forget, Sandor wanted to take Sansa away and leave King's Landing....and then he wanted rape Sansa?! I'm still very confused about his logic but I think that he has always been more than just fond of Sansa. He ended up doing none of those things when he could have. Instead, he stopped short at holding her at swordpoint and asked her to sing to him before he dipped. As if he was under some sort of spell.

Why couldn't it be a situation where Sansa did some low-level skinchanging. Why not? She did some skinchanging later on in A Storm of Swords with that one blind dog in the Vale.

 

By the way, Nightflyers and A Song for Lya are very good stories written by GRRM and both (here's a minor spoiler alert) deal with some type of empath and telepath

 

I’m stunned Barbrey didn’t have a paramour or five at some point. I’ve seen plenty of guys on the forums thirsting for her—talk about the power of personality!

I remember Sansa finding Ellaria intriguing, but I don’t remember her being that interested in her relationship with Oberyn.

I wonder if George has decided on Arya’s ending yet? According to Ed Sheeran, they considered killing her off in season 7.

According to the app, the Hound had no intention of raping Sansa, and that when he spoke of “taking her,” he meant it as “take her with me.” I think this was one of those times when George meant one thing and the readers took it to mean another (i.e. Cat and Jon). It would explain why the BotB episode (which he wrote) and comic book were adapted differently.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I guess I'm personally uncomfortable with the idea of Sandor being Sansa's love, what with the whole Blackwater and UnKiss aspect and the fact that he's considerably older than her (he's older than Tyrion).

Yeah, George majorly screwed up the ages. That’s something EggBlue and I complain about like three times a week. Just retcon them, George!

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I know it’s a bit controversial on this board, but I’m pretty sure that person is Sandor. I always interpreted the Unkiss as some kind of premonition/green dream, but the analyses I’ve seen from people who have read George’s other work have said that it’s very reminiscent of how he writes empaths/telepaths, which would point towards a warging situation. (I’m not a big sci-fi fan, so I haven’t read any of George’s other stuff, although I plan on reading Fevre Dream eventually).

 

As much as I don’t like D&D, reading their comments about how they wanted season 8’s episodes to be the top fan-rated of all time makes me feel sorry for them. I can only imagine how much of a shock the backlash was. On the one hand, yes, it was delusional, but why wouldn’t they be confident about it, when all of their previous nonsense was resoundingly praised to the heavens?

 

GOT seems to have truly become a guilty pleasure, in that ratings show that people are still watching it, but pop culture indicates that they don’t talk about it. It used to be considered high caliber, now it’s considered schlock. I suspect that HOTD will also have a big audience, but I don’t know if it will be big enough to compensate for that enormous budget.

Season 7 deserved *a lot* of criticism for its sheer silliness, but that did not materialise.

[BlackLightning]

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As much as I don’t like D&D, reading their comments about how they wanted season 8’s episodes to be the top fan-rated of all time makes me feel sorry for them. I can only imagine how much of a shock the backlash was. On the one hand, yes, it was delusional, but why wouldn’t they be confident about it, when all of their previous nonsense was resoundingly praised to the heavens?

GOT seems to have truly become a guilty pleasure, in that ratings show that people are still watching it, but pop culture indicates that they don’t talk about it. It used to be considered high caliber, now it’s considered schlock. I suspect that HOTD will also have a big audience, but I don’t know if it will be big enough to compensate for that enormous budget.

Well, to be honest, season 7 did not get half of the praise that season 6 (mainly the last three episodes) got and season 5 got ENORMOUS amounts of backlash and bad press at the time. I wasn't even a fan at the time and even I knew about how problematic the series was. I also remember people complaining about the show as early as season two or three on account of how pornographic, amoral and sleazy it was.

Who is still watching GOT again? Because I tend to hear people complain about it more than praise it.

HOTD having a big audience? Maaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyybeeeeeee. But it seems that TPTB at HBO recognize that the Daenerys character got an awful deal as a lot of their recent advertisement seems to be honoring her.

In the end, I don't think people will like HOTD either. A lot of the plot beats at the end of the story are way too similar to the final season of GOT.

Multiple claims to the Iron Throne; a female Targaryen is the chosen heir and beloved by (almost) all; female Targaryen gets her birthright stolen out from under her by evil scheming politicians; war breaks out with dragons and heavy losses are taken on both sides; female Targaryen finally takes the Iron Throne; female Targaryen is so unstable and paranoia from the war that it prevents her from being a good ruler; it falls apart and almost all of the dragons die; female Targaryen is brutally murdered by male relative only for him to be taken out of the picture; and the traumatized, depressed little boy ends up becoming king...

We've seen this before!!!

Come to think of it, it seems like D&D had no real ideas of their own for the last season and were too lazy to just do what they were told so they just wrote a poor adaptation of the end of Fire and Blood

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

It was all so rushed that Daenerys’ ostensible allies and supporters were turning against her for no reason.  Instead of people reacting to an increasing unstable ruler, what we were shown was someone who had very good reason to fear that she was being betrayed and undermined.  

As we've discussed before, Kim Wexler's arc, in Better Call Saul, shows how Daenerys' arc could have been handled, by writers who understand characterisation/coherent plotting etc.

Kim Wexler's arc from Better Call Saul is another good example.

I bring up that plotline from The Walking Dead because that is how you create a showdown between two main characters with an intimate history in where one is hyperaggressive and misguided and the other stoops to the level of murder to accomplish a more peaceful solution.

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

According to the app, the Hound had no intention of raping Sansa, and that when he spoke of “taking her,” he meant it as “take her with me.” I think this was one of those times when George meant one thing and the readers took it to mean another (i.e. Cat and Jon). It would explain why the BotB episode (which he wrote) and comic book were adapted differently.

Well, I guess...that wasn't what the Hound told Arya. And I don't think he was just blowing smoke up her chimney in order to get her to kill him.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, George majorly screwed up the ages. That’s something EggBlue and I complain about like three times a week. Just retcon them, George!

Agreed.

Some characters are way too young while others are way too old. Sandor being one of the characters who are too old.

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Season 7 deserved *a lot* of criticism for its sheer silliness, but that did not materialise.

Are you sure? I feel like season 7 was amply criticized during and after its run.

The big complaints and criticisms of the day - across the board - were:

1. it felt like all of the characters that weren't named Daenerys, Arya or Jon were just spinning their wheels
2. it was extremely rushed (particularly the first half)
3. and that the Winterfell plot in the second half not only made zero sense, but that was bad (shocking!).

Up until the last season, I think the episode where they went beyond the Wall was the worst reviewed and worst received episode of the entire series.

I think most people were just holding out hope that the last season would more than make up for it. I know I was one of them. Remember hearing the reports (not rumors, reports) that the last season was going to be six episodes long but that each episode would be like a movie in terms of length? Ha!

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

For one, it's one of the biggest examples of the unreliable narrator/false memory thing that is one of keystones of the entire series. Honestly, it's a huge thing that doesn't get talked about enough in the fandom. GRRM has gone on record to say that there will be more instances of the Unkiss situation in the future with one of them being huge.

I don't recall correctly, did he say the Unkiss will be huge or that more instances like will be revealed that are huge?

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I wonder if George has decided on Arya’s ending yet? According to Ed Sheeran, they considered killing her off in season 7.

I still find it hilarious that they considered killing off the one who ultimately ended the long (short?) night! 

29 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

HOTD having a big audience? Maaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyybeeeeeee. But it seems that TPTB at HBO recognize that the Daenerys character got an awful deal as a lot of their recent advertisement seems to be honoring her.

I predict that HOTD will get a huge audience in season 1 for its costumes and dragons , then ratings and viewers drop in season 2 .. by season 4 nobody will remember the show..

23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think most people were just holding out hope that the last season would more than make up for it. I know I was one of them. Remember hearing the reports (not rumors, reports) that the last season was going to be six episodes long but that each episode would be like a movie in terms of length? Ha!

this.

 

remember when Jaimie fell into a lake with full armor and a golden hand , yet , didn't die? .. still, that was better than Arya being stabbed twice as Jon did but she didn't need to get a haircut and be resurrected to stay in the show... 

why did we keep watching?!

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I don't recall correctly, did he say the Unkiss will be huge or that more instances like will be revealed that are huge?

That there will be more instances similar to the Unkiss and that one of those instances will be a huge plot-point. 

We have already had another Unkiss situation in Dance with Quentyn and his friends. I don't think that that one was the big moment but I think that Unkiss moment makes it impossible for Dorne to be civil with Dany.

[EggBlue]

7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

That there will be more instances similar to the Unkiss and that one of those instances will be a huge plot-point. 

hmmm... that is huge.. I wonder if that Unkiss has already happened and was just not revealed or if not what it will be...

7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

We have already had another Unkiss situation in Dance with Quentyn and his friends. I don't think that that one was the big moment but I think that Unkiss moment makes it impossible for Dorne to be civil with Dany.

that wasn't big but surely important. man , Barristan has a bad memory .. but that's understandable, right? he's like George's age..

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

That there will be more instances similar to the Unkiss and that one of those instances will be a huge plot-point. 

We have already had another Unkiss situation in Dance with Quentyn and his friends. I don't think that that one was the big moment but I think that Unkiss moment makes it impossible for Dorne to be civil with Dany.

You mean Barristan and Quentyn saying that Dany didn’t laugh at Quentyn when she clearly did? Yeah, that was weird.

If it’s a premonition, it could be a set up for Hold the Door, in that it’s a closed loop. Like if Sansa kisses Sandor, thinking that she’s reciprocating from the BotB, but she’s actually making that memory happen in real time. Then on a larger scale, Hodor gets Hodor’d because Bran was always meant to make it so. Just a theory. (Also, George hinging this weird mystery on an imaginary kiss is just further proof that he and Sansa are kindred spirits haha). 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Well, I guess...that wasn't what the Hound told Arya. And I don't think he was just blowing smoke up her chimney in order to get her to kill him.

Agreed.

Some characters are way too young while others are way too old. Sandor being one of the characters who are too old.

Are you sure? I feel like season 7 was amply criticized during and after its run.

The big complaints and criticisms of the day - across the board - were:

1. it felt like all of the characters that weren't named Daenerys, Arya or Jon were just spinning their wheels
2. it was extremely rushed (particularly the first half)
3. and that the Winterfell plot in the second half not only made zero sense, but that was bad (shocking!).

Up until the last season, I think the episode where they went beyond the Wall was the worst reviewed and worst received episode of the entire series.

I think most people were just holding out hope that the last season would more than make up for it. I know I was one of them. Remember hearing the reports (not rumors, reports) that the last season was going to be six episodes long but that each episode would be like a movie in terms of length? Ha!

People tend to only quote the first part of the sentence. The Hound tells Arya, “I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” Remember, the Hound despises Tyrion and thinks he’s a monster. So what he’s saying is that getting ravaged and killed would have been a kinder fate than being handed off like a present to Tyrion Lannister. 

[Le Cygne]

15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

People tend to only quote the first part of the sentence. The Hound tells Arya, “I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” Remember, the Hound despises Tyrion and thinks he’s a monster. So what he’s saying is that getting ravaged and killed would have been a kinder fate than being handed off like a present to Tyrion Lannister. 

Exactly what you said, and that's a huge thing to overlook - that's what is bugging him! Sandor is "sobbing" that Sansa is going through hell with the Lannisters, he blames himself because he left her, because he didn't take her with him. Even the stupid show had him say that in season 8.

He's goading Arya into killing him. He looked to see if what he said did the trick, and when it didn't, that's when he goaded her more: "When Arya did not move, he said..." That's when he brought up Sansa, and he sobbed when he did - that's another huge thing to overlook.

On the show, he looks away when he says "your pretty sister" as if to distance his feelings from his words (the director said he didn't mean the things he was saying). And in season 8, he blames himself for leaving her, and she tries to reassure him (as horribly written as that scene was).

In the books, he uses the words "leaving her" to describe what happened, and then she echoes his wording when she "remembers" he kissed her - she says "he left me" - and that's the crux of the story. They both regret that he left her. And that is the plot ball that's still in the air.

GRRM is telling a Beauty and the Beast story for Sansa and the Hound. A key plot point in BatB is when the Beast nearly dies of heartbreak while missing Beauty. And here the Hound (the Beast) is, sobbing about beautiful Sansa (Beauty) while dying. All that's missing is meeting again.

Here's the very obvious giveaway that he's telling a Beauty and the Beast story for them - La Belle et la Bête ~ Blackwater.

Sansa and Sandor are the only two main characters who never had consensual sexual sex on the show. In the everybody is shagging scene in season 8, she approaches him and says sex would make him happy, then holds his hand. After that episode, reviewers were like, well, did they do it?

They should have, and I think they will in the books. That they didn't let her have a moment of happiness, after gutting her and her story, says a lot about them.

[Le Cygne]

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, George majorly screwed up the ages. That’s something EggBlue and I complain about like three times a week. Just retcon them, George!

Agreed, just do a correction to the ages in the e-books, and print thereafter, everyone would be quite happy, they wouldn't have to ignore how messed up they are anymore.

[The Bard of Banefort]

35 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Exactly what you said, and that's a huge thing to overlook - that's what is bugging him! Sandor is "sobbing" that Sansa is going through hell with the Lannisters, he blames himself because he left her, because he didn't take her with him. Even the stupid show had him say that in season 8.

He's goading Arya into killing him. He looked to see if what he said did the trick, and when it didn't, that's when he goaded her more: "When Arya did not move, he said..." That's when he brought up Sansa, and he sobbed when he did - that's another huge thing to overlook.

On the show, he looks away when he says "your pretty sister" as if to distance his feelings from his words (the director said he didn't mean the things he was saying). And in season 8, he blames himself for leaving her, and she tries to reassure him (as horribly written as that scene was).

In the books, he uses the words "leaving her" to describe what happened, and then she echoes his wording when she "remembers" he kissed her - she says "he left me" - and that's the crux of the story. They both regret that he left her. And that is the plot ball that's still in the air.

GRRM is telling a Beauty and the Beast story for Sansa and the Hound. A key plot point in BatB is when the Beast nearly dies of heartbreak while missing Beauty. And here the Hound (the Beast) is, sobbing about beautiful Sansa (Beauty) while dying. All that's missing is meeting again.

Here's the very obvious giveaway that he's telling a Beauty and the Beast story for them - La Belle et la Bête ~ Blackwater.

Sansa and Sandor are the only two main characters who never had consensual sexual sex on the show. In the everybody is shagging scene in season 8, she approaches him and says sex would make him happy, then holds his hand. After that episode, reviewers were like, well, did they do it?

They should have, and I think they will in the books. That they didn't let her have a moment of happiness, after gutting her and her story, says a lot about them.

Agreed, plus it also implies that beneath the veneer, he does feel guilty for killing Mycah (and possibly even for what happened to Ned, since he mentions Ned’s execution the first time he brings up Mycah and Sansa to Arya). 

It’s kind of like how after Lancel confesses his affair with Cersei to Jaime, Jaime starts telling Illyn Payne about how he would have killed Arya if he caught her at the Ruby Ford. For some reason, everyone took that to be Jaime’s way of saying, “Mwahahaha I wanted to kill Arya! I like to murder children!” When what we were really seeing, given the context and the way the scene was written, was Jaime’s dawning horror as he realized that he was willing to attack another child to please his love, Cersei, only to now learn that she never really loved him. He did terrible things because he believed that loved justified anything, and now he has to live with the consequences.

(And by the way, I’m not being smug here. I missed most of the clues and hints within this series before reading the forums. I didn’t even realize that Dunk wasn’t knighted until I saw someone mention it online. I completely missed the gay subtext—somehow—with Daemon II Blackfyre).

12 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agreed, just do a correction to the ages in the e-books, and print thereafter, everyone would be quite happy, they wouldn't have to ignore how messed up they are anymore.

We need a petition. We live in a world where the Snyder Cut exists, anything can happen.

[Le Cygne]

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I don't recall correctly, did he say the Unkiss will be huge or that more instances like will be revealed that are huge?

He said this, and I think it's cute that he didn't think most people would pick up on it. Tale as old as time, we learned that story as kids. The Beast has to seem dangerous, and if we don't buy into that, it messes up the twist. The unkiss is the twist, Sansa is grooving on the danger (and danger is the code word for sexy).

ASOIAF is a very sexy story,  and I think people who don't want it to be, and take things literally, miss the fun. He likes phallic symbolism (daggers, swords, etc.) Like Hitchcock, he puts visual cues in the writing, and it would have been nice if the showrunners had the remotest knowledge of how to tell a story, but alas...

"You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes [there's only been one so far], that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on."

[EggBlue]

I've been searching for SanSan interviews with Martin and I found this:

now, I don't know what to think anymore! I mean.. in the show I thought there's a big chance that SanSan ultimately get together .  in the books ,with Sandor being a much harsher guy, I started to assume their very problematic connection might take a platonic turn after Sandor becomes a true knight and with that assumption a kingsgaurd or that their love becomes doomed with Sandor's death.. the point is the romantic aspect of their connection is undeniable

 

I also found this little clip in which George talks only about unreliable narrator when asked about SanSan scene in Blackwater and nothing more, obviously! 

 

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I've been searching for SanSan interviews with Martin and I found this:

now, I don't know what to think anymore! I mean.. in the show I thought there's a big chance that SanSan ultimately get together .  in the books ,with Sandor being a much harsher guy, I started to assume their very problematic connection might take a platonic turn after Sandor becomes a true knight and with that assumption a kingsgaurd or that their love becomes doomed with Sandor's death.. the point is the romantic aspect of their connection is undeniable

 

I also found this little clip in which George talks only about unreliable narrator when asked about SanSan scene in Blackwater and nothing more, obviously! 

 

 

I know I’ve said it before, but George basically sent the Hound to rehab. I suspect he’ll be a lot calmer the next time we see him. (Just think of how much Theon and Thoros changed in the span of a few months). 

[EggBlue]

27 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I know I’ve said it before, but George basically sent the Hound to rehab. I suspect he’ll be a lot calmer the next time we see him. (Just think of how much Theon and Thoros changed in the span of a few months). 

I know.. I know.. but in this clip , George talks about it as if all his teasing with SanSan is not gonna pay off as we suspect, rehab or not .

[The Bard of Banefort]

14 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I know.. I know.. but in this clip , George talks about it as if all his teasing with SanSan is not gonna pay off as we suspect, rehab or not .

I’d say “we shall see,” but I’m feeling pretty pessimistic about ever getting to read TWOW or ADOS these days 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Alright, I watched the clips. I think George enjoys talking to shippers, to be honest (for any ship), he’s such a mush  I didn’t find him too dismissive, personally. It is absolutely hilarious that he says he doesn’t understand why people like characters like Jaime and Theon, though. It’s not like he’s been deliberately improving their characters for hundreds of pages now, right? 
 

On a more dour note, how sad is it seeing comments from nine years ago saying how excited they are for the next book?