Heresy 215 - Hammering Out the Timeline

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I really don't have any text to offer for support, just impressions. Having the Battle of Stoney Sept a whole year after Lyanna went missing leaves lots of time for Robert's movements to be sure - allowing roughly 2 1/2 months on average for each significant movement. But wait - scratch that - we have to go from when Jon Arryn called his banners. Having the Sack in the third quarter of 283 makes Aegon closer to two years old rather than one year old. Also, if the Sack is in the 3rd quarter of 283, then Jon Arryn didn't call his banners until the 3rd quarter of 282? Brandon came from the shorter distance of Riverrun, while his father was already coming down from Winterfell, so you'd think they could've arrived to Kings Landing during the first quarter of 282, right???

If Lyanna disappeared at the start of the year, perhaps. But we don't know when Lyanna went missing, so we have no idea when Brandon and subsequently Rickard traveled to King's Landing.

We know that Rhaegar left Dragonstone at the start of 282 AC, and that he "ultimately" returned to the riverlands on that journey, where he came across Lyanna. How much time passed in between Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone and him finally disappearing with Lyanna, is still undefined. But dictionary definitions of "ultimately" imply some passage of time in between these two events. It's only the exact amount that still remains a mystery.

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands

In fact, imo this phrasing of this quote implies that the riverlands was not where Rhaegar went to first, (Where he might have gone to first, I have no idea!) and that Lyanna's disappearance, however long it was after the start of the year, did not occur in the first quarter at the very least.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Is there room for error? Sure. But what we have at the moment implies that the battle should be seen as occurring in 283 AC, and all that we know further tells us that it should then be very early in the year.

Hmm. Something is off in my opinion. There is a very early Bells (during winter ?) and a late sack (to get dany's birthday). But the time in between is not filled with much, compared with the speed the armies were marching earlier (Robert) and later (Ned to KL). We know that between Bells and Trident two KG were riding to Stoney Sept to rally the troops, that Rhaegar has been summoned and that he marshalled a host, that the dornish army was moving north and that Tywin was waiting it out. All while Aerys was preparing to burn KL, and most people closed their eyes for the preparations. 

What do the rebels do in the time in between ? Riding to Riverrun, Ned spends 2 weeks with Cat and then what ? As far as my understanding of the text, the time between Bells and Trident is short, as everything was done in a haste. The Targaryen host was made of lesser qualified troops, indicating there was not enough time to train, switch with the host at Storm's End or wait for further reinforcements. The dornish troops were pressed into service through Elia.

As far as I understand it, the main reason for the timing of the sack is the birthday of Dany, everything else is in relation to the sack and the 1 year period.

I have no certain timeperiod, as I cannot tell exactly how long Robb nedded to call his banners and get to the Riverlands. I assume 3-4 month, but I do not know exactly. The same time period would apply for Ned, shortening the time of the Riverland campaign with northern forces involved to about 8-9 months. This would line up with the sep date of the sack. But would not include the time Ned needed to move to the North to call the troops (although this could be made by raven) or any more time Robb needed to move. As far as I understand it, both move in winter and if Robb needs any longer than my estimated timeline and the battle of the Green Fork is later than in mar 299, then the sack should be earlier. It all depends how long the northern troops need to arrive at Stoney Sept before Bells. 

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Having the Battle of the Bells beginning in 283 now seems too late, even with all the battles Robert had. If Aegon was born late spring 282, he'd be 18 months old if the Sack were in the fall of 283.

Interesting, I have come to a different interpretation. But I think we both believe the oct is too late for the sack I assume.

[Lady Rhodes]

Ok, if I concede that Harrenhal was in late 281, can we reconcile things by putting Lyanna’s abduction later in 282?

[Melifeather]

45 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If Lyanna disappeared at the start of the year, perhaps. But we don't know when Lyanna went missing, so we have no idea when Brandon and subsequently Rickard traveled to King's Landing.

We know that Rhaegar left Dragonstone at the start of 282 AC, and that he "ultimately" returned to the riverlands on that journey, where he came across Lyanna. How much time passed in between Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone and him finally disappearing with Lyanna, is still undefined. But dictionary definitions of "ultimately" imply some passage of time in between these two events. It's only the exact amount that still remains a mystery.

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands

In fact, imo this phrasing of this quote implies that the riverlands was not where Rhaegar went to first, (Where he might have gone to first, I have no idea!) and that Lyanna's disappearance, however long it was after the start of the year, did not occur in the first quarter at the very least.

 

This text is from the World book, which as you well know, is an “in world” reference book written by Maester Yandel as a gift for King Robert. As such it was written to please Robert and to fit a specific narrative, but I feel the text of the books suggest a different story. IMO Rhaegar was on Dragonstone with Elia when Lyanna went missing, and another group deceived the small folk into believing they saw Rhaegar.  I apologize in advance. We are leaving the timeline and heading into a theory!

There are a few examples to insert first. 

 Example #1: After Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, Tywin called his banners and sent out Ser Gregor Clegane to raid the riverlands, but curiously he and his men rode under cover of night, without banners: 

 

Quote

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage— and Ned did not doubt that he had— he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

 Ser Gregor didn't use any flags, because Tywin didn't want any of the blame for the raiders to come back on him.

Example #2: Arianne and Arys come up with a plan to slip Myrcella out of the castle, by using stand-ins. Not just by using Myrcella's handmaiden, but for Arys too - using his armor:

    

Quote

 

“Did you meet with any problems?”

"Only Trystane. He wanted to sit beside Myrcella’s bedside and play cyvasse with her.”

“He had redspots when he was four, I told you. You can only get it once. You should have put out that Myrcella was suffering from greyscale, that would have kept him well away.”

"The boy perhaps, but not your father’s maester.”

“Caleotte,” she said. “Did he try to see her?”

“Not once I described the red spots on her face. He said that nothing could be done until the disease had run its course, and gave me a pot  of salve to soothe her itching.”

No one under ten ever died of redspots, but it could be mortal in adults, and Maester Caleotte had never suffered it as a child. Arianne learned that when she suffered her own spots, at eight. “Good,” she said. “And the handmaid? Is she convincing?”

“From a distance. The Imp picked her for this purpose, over many girls of nobler birth. Myrcella helped her curl her hair, and painted the dots on her face herself. They are distant kin. Lannisport teems with Lannys, Lannetts, Lantells, and lesser Lannisters, and half of them have that yellow hair. Dressed in Myrcella’s bedrobe with the maester’s salve smeared across her face . . . she might even have fooled me, in a dim light. It was a deal harder to find a man to take my place. Dake is closest to my height, but he’s too fat, so I put Rolder in my armor and told him to keep his visor down. The man is three inches shorter than I am, but perhaps no one will notice if I’m not there to stand beside him. He’ll keep to Myrcella’s chambers in any case.”

 “All we need is a few days. By that time the princess will be beyond my father’s reach.”

“Where?” He drew her close and nuzzled at her neck. “It’s time you told me the rest of the plan, don’t you think?”

She laughed, pushing him away. “No, it’s time we rode.”

 

There is actually a third example, which I’ve heard is GRRMs way of revealing something. The third example is Renlys armor at the Battle of Blackwater.

My theory is that when Ser Gregor continued the search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree long after Rhaegar had given up, it was under Tywin's orders and not Aerys. Tywin had a duplicate made of Rhaegar's armor and had Ser Gregor wear it while raiding. It's my belief that Tywin was against Rhaegar from the time he resigned Hand. The common folk would see Rhaegar's armor and banners while Ser Gregor and his men raided, raped, and pillaged, and support for Rhaegar's cause would crumble. So when Ser Gregor came upon Lyanna, everyone thought it was Rhaegar. It was the talk of the common folk throughout the Riverlands.

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ok, if I concede that Harrenhal was in late 281, can we reconcile things by putting Lyanna’s abduction later in 282?

Oh Lady Rhodes! It’s not a requirement to reach a consensus! 

its good to disagree, because usually it leads to new information.

[Lady Rhodes]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh Lady Rhodes! It’s not a requirement to reach a consensus! 

its good to disagree, because usually it leads to new information.

Haha! Thank you @Feather Crystal  my main point is not so much that the tourney was early versus late. My main point, wherever we position the tournament, is that there is a gap in time of a few months (5-6 I think) between the tourney and the disappearance of Lyanna. I think we are being led to believe they are closer than they really were. If we accept this, it raises some interesting questions. Why was Lyanna near the God’s Eye? What happened during that gap?

[asongofheresy]

@Lady Rhodes thank you for the purple cup ^•^ I will admit I am not so great when it comes to timeline of asoiaf and understanding months/weeks of the events - though I will recommend Order of the Greenhand's video about Ned + Ashara part 1 where they speak about their timeline - you don't have to agree with them/their theories just as an example, they talk about travel speeds too. 

BTW after mentioning Simon Toyne and Fletcher Dick I researched Wenda the White Fawn and remembered a Tumblr post of Aegor Bamfsteel about Calla Blackfyre's name. There is a Disney princess Calla from Adventures of the Gummi Bears - she is a tomboy, easily aggravated, feisty, etc. She has black eyes and long blonde hair in a pony tail, slender with fair skin. Her father didn't had any son but only her, she disliked royal duties and wanted adventures instead. Now I wouldn't say Wenda is a Blackfyre but I find the possible connection interesting, I also think Wenda could be Lady of the Leaves from Arya's chapter? 

[Lady Rhodes]

@Jova Snow@Feather Crystal@JNR@Rhaenys_Targaryen@SirArthur
I'm trying to hammer a few things out. Throw in any thoughts you may have.

When I am deciding if something is a lie or a misdirection, a big part of what I look for is verifiability.  What we have all discussed, such as the fact that A World of Ice and Fire is given a Baratheon/Lannister slant bias, is important and certainly exists, but even the most biased accounts have to have some aspect of verifiability.
The big one that is stuck in my head right now is the length of the false spring.  The world book calls it lasting a little less than 2 turns, which should be something easily verifiable. But the whole year is frequently referred to as "the year of the false spring"  This bothers me.  Think about all the events that happen in 281:
1.Kingswood Brotherhood Defeated
2.Tourney of Harrenhal - the grandest tournament Westeros had ever seen!
3. The first time that Aerys left the castle since Duskendale

Think about the real world - if a year is dubbed "the year of the (blank)" the (blank) is typically a predominant theme of the year. Winter's are bad, so I am sure that Spring is a time to rejoice and celebrate, but would it be enough, something that last barely two months, for the whole year to be considered "the year of the false spring"

My suggestion: I think the false spring lasted longer than 2 months.  a little less than two turns, I took that two mean months.  Maybe the maester's mean something else?

This is very circumstantial, but I think it can help us determine when certain events occurred.
 

[Melifeather]

13 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Haha! Thank you @Feather Crystal  my main point is not so much that the tourney was early versus late. My main point, wherever we position the tournament, is that there is a gap in time of a few months (5-6 I think) between the tourney and the disappearance of Lyanna. I think we are being led to believe they are closer than they really were. If we accept this, it raises some interesting questions. Why was Lyanna near the God’s Eye? What happened during that gap?

I think I've already introduced you to my titled chapters theory - where I believe there is a second story found amongst parallels, inversions, and metaphors? The Cat of the Canals chapter hints at a continued presence for Lyanna in the Riverlands, and that "three nights out of every thirty" are the atonement for defeating the three squires and knights at the tourney. Greywater Watch is a parallel to the House of Black and White. In this first part of my analysis of the chapter I lay out the parallels that describe the locations.  The descriptions are eerily familiar. For example, I had compared the geographical parallels between the Palace of Truth in Braavos with its green copper domes located on an island on the western end of the Green Canal to the Isle of Faces in God’s Eye. The green men are the parallel to the green copper domes. Howland reached the island by floating down the Green Fork of the Trident.

The House of Black and White is a temple that sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Its wooden doors are twelve feet high and carved. The left door is white weirwood, the right ebony black. In the center of both doors is a carved moon face - ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony side. The knoll upon which it stands holds many passageways cut from the rock. There are three lower levels. Priests and acolytes sleep on the first level, servants sleep on the second, and the third level holds the holy sanctum and the many faces collected by the House. The faces hung on the walls are used in disguises. Upstairs on the main floor lies a pool ten feet across. Thirty statues of the world’s gods line the interior walls surrounding the pool. While there are no regular services, songs, or worship held within the temple, people can visit the gods, the pool, and even ask for a priest. It is this House where Arya meets the kindly man, and is initiated into the guild of the Faceless Men.

Greywater Watch is the seat of House Reed. It is roughly located in an eastern headwater of the Green Fork in the swamps of the Neck, southwest of Moat Cailin. It is a castle built upon a crannog, which is a man-made floating island, and it does not stay in the same place, making it impossible for ravens or enemies to find. It’s a mysterious place where many have died trying to find it. This seems to echo the HoBaw pool. You drink from that pool and you die. Any attempts to search for Greywater have ended with invaders sinking into the bogs. The Neck itself is centrally located in Westeros, with the North and its colder climes on one end, and the South with it’s warmer temperatures on the other. It’s a literal geographic manifestation of the artistic design of the doors of the House of Black and White. Greywater’s physical description of floating on a crannog may be an inversion to the rocky knoll of HoBaW, but it is equally mysterious and deathly.

Arya told the kindly man three new things she learned each time she returned to the House of Black and White to serve her three nights as an acolyte when the moon was black. Lyanna fought three squires, and then later combined with Howland as the Knight of the Laughing Tree to defeat three knights, but what is the significance of the three black moonless nights?

Lady Barbary claimed that Rickard Stark had “southron amitions”. I used to think this was in reference to the alliances that Rickard had made with southron Houses rather than with his own northern bannermen, but now I’m beginning to suspect that he may have been persuaded to send Lyanna to court. Or, it could just be in reference to his forcing his daughter into a marriage she did not want, like the southron Houses were want to do. Which makes me wonder if it's not typically what the northern Houses did?

The Harrenhal tourney may have changed all that. If it was a tourney to gather support for Rhaegar to overthrow his father, then this may have been when Rickard made his alliance with Houses Tully, Arryn, and Baratheon. The conversation between Lyanna and Ned may have taken place during the ten days of the tourney. Lyanna’s “sniffling” at the feast might have been more in response to her father’s decision, and seeing Ashara dancing with many men - including the man her father just promised her to - than to any sad song Rhaegar sang. The incident with “Sloey” might have already occurred and gossiped about, increasing Lyanna’s trepidation about the match. 

The tourney at Harrenhal lasted ten days. The three days that Arya must serve are symbolic of the three defeated knights. While Arya lives in Braavos she goes on various assignments. Living with Brusco and his daughters was one such assignment. After being crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty, I suspect Lyanna took off and lived for months in the Riverlands. What I’m wondering now is whether or not Lyanna was in frequent contact with Howland and the godhead, because of this:
 

Quote

“All men must serve.” And so she did, three days of every thirty. When the moon was black she was no one, a servant of the Many-Faced God in a robe of black and white. She walked beside the kindly man through the fragrant darkness, carrying her iron lantern. She washed the dead, went through their clothes, and counted out their coins. Some days she still helped Umma cook, chopping big white mushrooms and boning fish. But only when the moon was black. The rest of the time she was an orphan girl in a pair of battered boots too big for her feet and a brown cloak with a ragged hem, crying “Mussels and cockles and clams” as she wheeled her barrow through the Ragman’s Harbor.

 

The kindly man is Howland Reed, and Arya walked beside him. The kindly man works in the House of Black and White, and the type of work he does seems to be a parallel to Howland. Howland for his part had these talents:

Quote

…breath mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.

 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Jova Snow@Feather Crystal@JNR@Rhaenys_Targaryen@SirArthur
I'm trying to hammer a few things out. Throw in any thoughts you may have.

When I am deciding if something is a lie or a misdirection, a big part of what I look for is verifiability.  What we have all discussed, such as the fact that A World of Ice and Fire is given a Baratheon/Lannister slant bias, is important and certainly exists, but even the most biased accounts have to have some aspect of verifiability.
The big one that is stuck in my head right now is the length of the false spring.  The world book calls it lasting a little less than 2 turns, which should be something easily verifiable. But the whole year is frequently referred to as "the year of the false spring"  This bothers me.  Think about all the events that happen in 281:
1.Kingswood Brotherhood Defeated
2.Tourney of Harrenhal - the grandest tournament Westeros had ever seen!
3. The first time that Aerys left the castle since Duskendale

Think about the real world - if a year is dubbed "the year of the (blank)" the (blank) is typically a predominant theme of the year. Winter's are bad, so I am sure that Spring is a time to rejoice and celebrate, but would it be enough, something that last barely two months, for the whole year to be considered "the year of the false spring"

My suggestion: I think the false spring lasted longer than 2 months.  a little less than two turns, I took that two mean months.  Maybe the maester's mean something else?

This is very circumstantial, but I think it can help us determine when certain events occurred.
 

I too thought the Year of the False Spring meant it lasted a year, but I can also see how it could be interpreted as the year that they thought they were heading into Spring. The two month Spring is something only found in the World book, but its not the type of detail that you'd think Maester Yandel would have a need to lie or embellish about.

[Lady Rhodes]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

I too thought the Year of the False Spring meant it lasted a year, but I can also see how it could be interpreted as the year that they thought they were heading into Spring. The two month Spring is something only found in the World book, but its not the type of detail that you'd think Maester Yandel would have a need to lie or embellish about

Exactly! Why would he lie, especially because it is something fairly verifiable? At the same time, it does not seem to mesh right with other information. Also, I am vaguely familiar with your inversions and parallels theory, but will need to read up on it more. 

I am wondering if two turns means something else - equinoxes and solstices, perhaps?  

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Exactly! Why would he lie, especially because it is something fairly verifiable? At the same time, it does not seem to mesh right with other information. Also, I am vaguely familiar with your inversions and parallels theory, but will need to read up on it more. 

I am wondering if two turns means something else - equinoxes and solstices, perhaps?  

Like Rhaenys pointed out up thread, nine turns was interchangeable with nine moons when describing pregnancy.

[Lady Rhodes]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Like Rhaenys pointed out up thread, nine turns was interchangeable with nine moons when describing pregnancy.

I figured as much, and thought it was two months as well.  Yet, it doesn't seem to mesh with the characters thoughts of "the year of the false spring"  I don't know, it just seems...weird to me.

[Lady Rhodes]

Very off topic, but when I was searching for text (the asearchoficeandfire.com is very useful!) I found this:
 

Quote

Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned's liking. He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher's boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

Heart of the Lands of Always Winter?

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Very off topic, but when I was searching for text (the asearchoficeandfire.com is very useful!) I found this:
 

Heart of the Lands of Always Winter?

Well, my personal theory is that the Starks rise from the dead to a state like Coldhands in order to protect the realm from white walkers and wights. I think that's what happened to the Last Hero, because in his story they talk about his sword breaking just like Waymar Royce. Waymar's sword broke when he fought a white walker, and they killed him. So when Bran remembers that the Children "helped" him, what I think really happened is that the Children knew of a way to free him from the bonds of becoming a wight, so that he could rise to fight again. He'd have the advantage of not having "hot blood" that the white walkers and wights could smell. And if he can walk during daylight hours he could gather the dead and burn them. I think this is the legacy of House Stark. They defeated winter.

[Lady Rhodes]

@Feather CrystalInteresting.  I am going to review more. Anyway - I am back to my timeline hunt!

So far, I have search Eddard's chapters of Game for the words: Harrenhal, tourney, Rhaegar, Lyanna, false spring, Brandon, and dream.  It has gleaned some interesting passages, but again, nothing that particularly notes length. The biggest piece that I have found is an excerpt from when Eddard is in the crypts of Winterfell, he mentions that Brandon died a few days before what would have been his wedding to Catelyn.
I am doing the same searches for Catelyn now.  I am wondering if we can get an idea of when Brandon and Catelyn's wedding was supposed to be if that would help us.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Jova Snow@Feather Crystal@JNR@Rhaenys_Targaryen@SirArthur
I'm trying to hammer a few things out. Throw in any thoughts you may have.

When I am deciding if something is a lie or a misdirection, a big part of what I look for is verifiability.  What we have all discussed, such as the fact that A World of Ice and Fire is given a Baratheon/Lannister slant bias, is important and certainly exists, but even the most biased accounts have to have some aspect of verifiability.
The big one that is stuck in my head right now is the length of the false spring.  The world book calls it lasting a little less than 2 turns, which should be something easily verifiable. But the whole year is frequently referred to as "the year of the false spring"  This bothers me.  Think about all the events that happen in 281:
1.Kingswood Brotherhood Defeated
2.Tourney of Harrenhal - the grandest tournament Westeros had ever seen!
3. The first time that Aerys left the castle since Duskendale

Think about the real world - if a year is dubbed "the year of the (blank)" the (blank) is typically a predominant theme of the year. Winter's are bad, so I am sure that Spring is a time to rejoice and celebrate, but would it be enough, something that last barely two months, for the whole year to be considered "the year of the false spring"

My suggestion: I think the false spring lasted longer than 2 months.  a little less than two turns, I took that two mean months.  Maybe the maester's mean something else?

This is very circumstantial, but I think it can help us determine when certain events occurred.
 

As someone who doesn't trust maesters I would say their accounts are dubious and most of the time they are flat out lies. But I also have this views on Andals. *shrug emoji* 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather CrystalInteresting.  I am going to review more. Anyway - I am back to my timeline hunt!

So far, I have search Eddard's chapters of Game for the words: Harrenhal, tourney, Rhaegar, Lyanna, false spring, Brandon, and dream.  It has gleaned some interesting passages, but again, nothing that particularly notes length. The biggest piece that I have found is an excerpt from when Eddard is in the crypts of Winterfell, he mentions that Brandon died a few days before what would have been his wedding to Catelyn.
I am doing the same searches for Catelyn now.  I am wondering if we can get an idea of when Brandon and Catelyn's wedding was supposed to be if that would help us.

Speaking of bethorals do we know when Lyanna and Robert were bethored that Lyanna spoke wisdom to her older brother? (God I hate her sometimes) 

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Very off topic,

The beauty of Heresy is that we wander off topic frequently and nobody seems to mind. 

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

As someone who doesn't trust maesters I would say their accounts are dubious and most of the time they are flat out lies. But I also have this views on Andals. *shrug emoji* 

Speaking of bethorals do we know when Lyanna and Robert were bethored that Lyanna spoke wisdom to her older brother? (God I hate her sometimes) 

The books don't give us a date for Ned and Lyanna's talk, but to me it makes sense that they talked during the tourney, because otherwise Ned was already a ward of Jon Arryn and they wouldn't have had an opportunity to talk while he was away. I think it also helps explain why she "sniffled" during Rhaegar's song. I don't see Lyanna as someone that would tear up about a song. Could you imagine Arya tearing up? But if your father just told you that you're to marry a known cheater and you don't have a choice in the matter, then she could have been thinking about that during the song and then teared up...more like angry tears. I think these three things go together: Rickard promises Lyanna to Robert, Lyanna gets upset during Rhaegar's song, and then Ned and Lyanna have their talk - all during the ten days of the tourney.