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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Targaryen princess who doesn't want to marry her brother in F&B v2

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Will there be princess who thinks incest is wrong in F&B v2? We have examples of Baelor, Duncan Targaryen and maybe Egg (he is still child in stories) as princes who somehow managed to go against the rules . But even Naerys loved her brother Aemon. Shiera Seastar was paramour to her brother Bloodraven but she didn't want to marry. I find it artificial that all Targaryen princesses find their love in their incest marriages and none of them want to go against it Do Egg's sisters have potential for that?

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Posted (edited)

I don't doubt that we'll find out that a random Targaryen princess didn't want to marry her brother and defied people's expectations. Look at all the stuff we found out about Rhaena, Aerea, Alysanne, even Viserra or Saera. I won't be surprised if we get our minds blown in the second volume. 

Edited by Canon Claude

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5 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

 Look at all the stuff we found out about Rhaena, Aerea, Alysanne, even Viserra or Saera.

Rhaena and Alysanne did marry their brothers willingly. Viserra and Saera tried to sleep with their married brothers. 

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14 minutes ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Rhaena and Alysanne did marry their brothers willingly. Viserra and Saera tried to sleep with their married brothers. 

I just meant that Fire and Blood gave us a LOT of new information that we didn't know before about those aforementioned characters. Who knew that a girl rode Balerion to Valyria? That blew my mind reading about it.

Therefore, I have no doubt that we'll get an incredible amount of info in the next book, and it could very well include a Targaryen princess who did not wish to be married to her brother (personally, I'm betting on one of Baelor's sisters or Aerys II's wife). 

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Naerys didn't want to marry her brother - and considering her piety chances are not that bad that she also had no intention to marry Aemon.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Naerys didn't want to marry her brother - and considering her piety chances are not that bad that she also had no intention to marry Aemon.

Shouldn't Doctrine of Exceptionalism solve that problem for Naerys?

Quote

The singers like to claim that both Aemon and Naerys wept during the ceremony, but the truth is different: Aemon is known to have quarreled with Aegon during the feast, and Naerys wept during the bedding, not the actual wedding.

 

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4 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Shouldn't Doctrine of Exceptionalism solve that problem for Naerys?

How so? The Doctrine of Exceptionalism doesn't help you when you don't want to marry. Naerys' words about wanting to live 'as brother and sister' with Aegon after she had given birth to their son Daeron implies that her natural view of a sibling relationship wasn't an incestuous marriage.

But I don't think many Targaryens ever thought incest was bad. Why should they? It was part of their family identity since time immemorial. We see this, for instance, when the natural thing for King Aenys is to marry his children to each other - even though he knows that the Faith doesn't like this and he himself didn't exactly marry a very close cousin - or when the lesbian Rhaena also has no issue marrying her brother.

And George doesn't really give them 'empirical evidence' that this kind of thing is bad. They conquered an entire continent, made seven kingdoms into one, are the most famous royal dynasty this side of the Bones, and are blessed by a surpassing, inhumane beauty (which is preserved and refined by the incest they practice).

Interestingly enough, the opposition to incest in the books is also not based on 'empirical evidence'. It is strictly religious in nature, just as it was in the real world middle ages. If the noble and royal families had known and understood that continuous avuncular and cousin marriages would increase the risk of hereditary diseases and have bad effects on fertility then they sure as hell would have not done that. The entire point of noble/royal marriage was to produce healthy children - and most of the succession struggles and wars that ravaged medieval countries were caused by the absence of a clear heir - due to the result that monarchs died childless.

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Naerys obviously did not want to marry Aegon, and seeing how pious she was, probably considered incest to be a sin.

Rhaena (Aegon III's daughter) was also very pious like her brother Baelor and there's a chance she too did not like incest.

Rhaella also was less than happy on her wedding day, but she seems to have had a problem with the groom rather the incest.

Princesses whose opinion on incest is not clear include Elaena (she did bed a cousin, but a cousin is not incest), Aelora (was married to her brother, personal feelings not known), Daella, Daenora, Vaella and Rhaelle. Daena, Daenerys, Rhae and Shaera all seemed to be more than OK with incest.

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1 hour ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Naerys obviously did not want to marry Aegon, and seeing how pious she was, probably considered incest to be a sin.

Rhaena (Aegon III's daughter) was also very pious like her brother Baelor and there's a chance she too did not like incest.

With the Doctrine of Exceptionalism in place it is increasingly unlikely that even pious Targaryens considered incest a sin. I mean, the pious septon-king Baelor actually locked away his sisters because he was afraid they would seduce him or cause him to think unchaste thoughts. You have to completely absorbed the Targaryen incest mindset to actually have ridiculous thoughts/fears such as that. Only people who see their siblings as their natural sex partners/spouses would view them the way Baelor did.

There is a small chance that some Targaryens had septons and septas trying to instill in them the pre-Exceptionalism views of the Faith, but considering how futile that approach was with Alysanne - and how unlikely it is that any Targaryens after Jaehaerys I employed such septons and septas - I'd think the probability that this happened is very low.

Incest even comes very naturally to young Egg, meaning both the courts and the nobility the court usually interacted with had completely adopted the Exceptionalism thing. It seems the old views are mainly shared by the smallfolk in most rural areas. That's what influenced Dunk's view on the matter.

We also see this when Jaime and Cersei discuss their own incest - they both acknowledge that the Targaryen incest was fine because they were Targaryens. But Cersei cannot bring herself to openly acknowledge/legitimize her incestuous relationship by marrying Jaime.

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29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

With the Doctrine of Exceptionalism in place it is increasingly unlikely that even pious Targaryens considered incest a sin. I mean, the pious septon-king Baelor actually locked away his sisters because he was afraid they would seduce him or cause him to think unchaste thoughts. You have to completely absorbed the Targaryen incest mindset to actually have ridiculous thoughts/fears such as that. Only people who see their siblings as their natural sex partners/spouses would view them the way Baelor did.

There is a small chance that some Targaryens had septons and septas trying to instill in them the pre-Exceptionalism views of the Faith, but considering how futile that approach was with Alysanne - and how unlikely it is that any Targaryens after Jaehaerys I employed such septons and septas - I'd think the probability that this happened is very low.

Naerys asked Aegon to live as brother and sister - that is, without incest. The Faith considers incest to be a sin; so it's only natural that Naerys would hate it as well.

Whatever Baelor might have felt, it doesn't mean much for Rhaena; she's her own person. She was pious like Naerys, so I believe she too might have not looked very favourably at the Targ tradition.

Talking abput Baelor; all we've got about him is second-hand information. We don't know for sure that Baelor locked up Daena, Rhaena and Elaena because he was tempted by them. Cersei thinks so, but Cersei never met him. And even if he was attracted to them... it doesn't change the fact that he might have misliked incest. Conflicted feelings and attraction against one's better judgement is a thing, after all. The fact that he locked them away so he couldn't commit incest points to that, he, too, wasn't fond of the tradition.

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