X-men the last stand; gays need a cure?

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Can we try to do be civil here?  I’m not denying that was really is the message the writers and director, wanted to convey but in my opinion it’s undercut with the fact the Heroes defeat the main antagonist of the trilogy through forcibly curing him, in order to pacify him and have said antagonist only recognizes he’s done wrong after he’s “supposedly” cured. They took Magneto’s powers, because he was a threat. 

I fuck civility with a rusty spoon. Daily.

If that was your opinion you should have conveyed that instead of a clickbait equivalent call for the nasties to chime in with their race theories.

[Gronzag]

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

And leave you all to promote exclusionary dogma? I'll stay. 

Do you really not understand how metaphors work? And that most racists construct nefarious or dangerous motivations around the people they discriminate against? 

"The Jews stabbed Germany in the back!"

"The Blacks are selling drugs to our kids!"

"The Mexicans are sending rapists and murderers!" 

"The Irish are drunken brawlers here to put us all out of work!" 

"The Slavs are weakening the human race!"

"The gays are raping our children!"

 

This is basic human interaction shit. I'm really not here to shit on you or anything but c'mon man!

Are you for real?! Who are you arguing against? Who said those things!?  I denied that mutants are a good metaphor for gays in my first two sentences:

16 hours ago, Gronzag said:

X-men being a metaphor for homosexuals is incredibly dumb. Gay people don't have the power to abuse or kill millions of people on the whim.  X-men are closer to being a metaphor for NRAs "good guys with guns" spiel, only 100 billion times worse. I assume most people here are in favor of some sort of gun control, or even a total ban, and yet mutants have incredibly destructive abilities, which they use as they see fit, and characters who want those powers under public control, or neutralized, are portrayed as bad guys.

I mean, Professor X's power is mind-rape. And he uses that power casually and very often to force ordinary people do whatever he wants, then forget about it. He also built a machine that magnifies his power so he could reach every person on a planet, because controlling only people in your immediate surrounding is just not enough. X-men movies only work because the audience is made to identify with the mutants, while ordinary humans are portrayed as a bunch of weak, intolerant bigots, who deserve everything that comes to them (including being mind-raped). You wouldn't want to live on the same planet with the mutants, even only the 'good' ones.

Also, check out who (badly) directed The Last Stand.

In the rest I elaborated why in universe, ordinary people would be perfectly right to fear mutants. Nobody said "we should persecute Jews and gay people in real life"!

Holy shit, talk about a straw man argument. 

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

Are you for real?! Who are you arguing against? Who said those things!?  I denied that mutants are a good metaphor for gays in my first two sentences:

In the rest I elaborated why in universe, ordinary people would be perfectly right to fear mutants. Nobody said "we should persecute Jews and gay people in real life"!

Holy shit, talk about a straw man argument. 

Now you're just being obtuse or you have the mental capacity of a goldfish. The entire post was to highlight that racists throughout history turn marginalized groups into something to be feared. Which counteracts your assertion that the metaphor doesn't fit. 

Can you even read?

 

ETA: I don't know how I could have been more clear. I started off with the most well known anti-Semitic genocidal justification in the history of the fucking species.

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 hours ago, divica said:

I think the interesting thing about the x-men is that they are descriminated because of their powers. However, contrary to most descriminations that are irrational (jews, black people, women…) there are powers that simply must be descriminated.

It isn t possible to treat a telepath like a normal person… No information would be safe near these people. Or people like ciclops for exemple. A little accident and he causes lots of destruction… And this is only using real easy exemples! For exemple, how would you investigate a crime made by a mutante without some list of mutants and their abilities?

This post makes me think of of “My hero academia” a manga and anime series about a society that basically has it the vast majority of people develop power of some kind. It’s interesting to note how heavy regulations on super-powered humans, is still in effect even after they are they are the majority and now accepted as the normal thing to be. Like it is illegal for one to use their powers to even defend themselves or others without a license. That type of regulation would typically be decrided as fascist, way too far, insane, by the standards of many comic-book heroes in the West. Rightly so imo. I think this is an example of America’s value of individuality vs Japan’s value of unity and conformity. To be clear I’m not praising Japan and saying  America needs to respect individual liberties less.  Unless an individual has actually committed a crime, they should not be treated as a criminal or given any more restriction than his or her fellow citizens. I just find it interesting to ponder the differences between the super-heroes in “My hero academia” and many of their American counterparts and the cultures that influences them.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

59 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I fuck civility with a rusty spoon. Daily.

If that was your opinion you should have conveyed that instead of a clickbait equivalent call for the nasties to chime in with their race theories.

I did covey this in my first post. From my OP” it seems unintentionally the film supports the idea of it being totally okay to try to forcefully convert gays to straight. I mean it’s only after Magneto is cured does he see anything wrong with what he did”  It’s clear what my opinion was/is. If you disagree, please explain why you don’t think the curing of Magneto does not give credence to this idea of it being justified to “cure” mutants in order to pacify them and unintentionally this idea of it ever being ok to try “curing” a someone of homosexuality. 

[Gronzag]

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Now you're just being obtuse or you have the mental capacity of a goldfish. The entire post was to highlight that racists throughout history turn marginalized groups into something to be feared. Which counteracts your assertion that the metaphor doesn't fit. 

Can you even read?

ETA: I don't know how I could have been more clear. I started off with the most well known anti-Semitic genocidal justification in the history of the fucking species.

The metaphor does NOT fit because gays, jews and others from that list do not have the power to abuse ordinary people if they only choose to, like the X-men. Keep throwing insults kid.

[Jace, Extat]

27 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

The metaphor does NOT fit because gays, jews and others from that list do not have the power to abuse ordinary people if they only choose to, like the X-men. Keep throwing insults kid.

In the face of such awesome ignorance, I give up. You've defeated me with your superior brain. 

There's a new Dan Carlin out, I'm going to make a good decision for once. 

Peace be with you.

 

[red snow]

32 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

The metaphor does NOT fit because gays, jews and others from that list do not have the power to abuse ordinary people if they only choose to, like the X-men. Keep throwing insults kid.

You are placing strict qualifiers to fit your definition, allegory is usually much more flexible than this so your claim it doesn't fit is based solely on your restrictions.

Not all mutants have super powers. Not all mutants have uncontrollable powers. So curing (or neutering) or monitoring all mutants has parallels with monitoring or treating all muslims as if they were jihadists in the sense that it's wrong.

I'm honestly surprised there are posters who see the X-men as films where the treatment of mutants is justified. But I guess that is a possible interpretation even if I'm confident stan lee and chris Claremont didn't intend this

[red snow]

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

In the face of such awesome ignorance, I give up. You've defeated me with your superior brain. 

There's a new Dan Carlin out, I'm going to make a good decision for once. 

Peace be with you.

 

Thanks for the dan carlin heads up! Although if it's part 2 of his Japan series I'm hoping it's not 3 hours of him using imperial Japan to justify war and assumption of race fear and superiority.

[Jace, Extat]

25 minutes ago, red snow said:

Thanks for the dan carlin heads up! Although if it's part 2 of his Japan series I'm hoping it's not 3 hours of him using imperial Japan to justify war and assumption of race fear and superiority.

Nah, seems evenhanded as usual so far. He spent at least a half hour on Nanjing, and cited Crimona (as he's done before) to help provide historical perspective. Less "garrr! War Crimes!" And more the usual in depth analysis of why human beings are so fucking nasty to each other and why you can't allow folks to try and explain away their cultures' genocides if we ever want to be better.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Nah, seems evenhanded as usual so far. He spent at least a half hour on Nanjing, and cited Crimona (as he's done before) to help provide historical perspective. Less "garrr! War Crimes!" And more the usual in depth analysis of why human beings are so fucking nasty to each other and why you can't allow folks to try and explain away their cultures' genocides if we ever want to be better.

A safer space

I picked up Max Hastings Vietnam off the back of his interview with Dan. Although i should take this over to the podcast threat - wouldn't want to derail this one.

[Darth Richard II]

Well this went nuts while I slept but no, I was not trolling in any shape or form, and I think Jace covered my thoughts pretty well.

[Heartofice]

I'm surprised anyone has seen this movie enough times to remember anything about it, let alone have an argument over it.

[divica]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This post makes me think of of “My hero academia” a manga and anime series about a society that basically has it the vast majority of people develop power of some kind. It’s interesting to note how heavy regulations on super-powered humans, is still in effect even after they are they are the majority and now accepted as the normal thing to be. Like it is illegal for one to use their powers to even defend themselves or others without a license. That type of regulation would typically be decrided as fascist, way too far, insane, by the standards of many comic-book heroes in the West. Rightly so imo. I think this is an example of America’s value of individuality vs Japan’s value of unity and conformity. To be clear I’m not praising Japan and saying  America needs to respect individual liberties less.  Unless an individual has actually committed a crime, they should not be treated as a criminal or given any more restriction than his or her fellow citizens. I just find it interesting to ponder the differences between the super-heroes in “My hero academia” and many of their American counterparts and the cultures that influences them.  

I think you are being very simplistic.

As long as a telepath reads your mind it should be a crime. It doesn t matter how mainstream mutants and powers are. There are some powers that have to be monitored! You can t have someone with the ability to destroy buildings and not test that person in order to know if he can safely control his power or analise his profile in order to know if he has the mental capacity to control that power.

For example, you do not let everyone be a cop and handle weapons. However you would be ok with letting people with super destructive or invasive powers walking freely without being checked? We are not talking about imprisioning anyone with a dangerous power. But they would need to be regurlarly checked to see if they can still safely control their power and monitored like we do nowadays for potential terrorists. 

Talking about civil rights and liberties is very good, but if your neighbor can explode your street or control your mind you would like someone to keep tabs on him and make sure that IT doesn t happen. And we just have to look at the things that professor X does during the movies to see how much he cares about the rights, privacy and liberties of the humans he uses! They are completly unaceptable in a normal society!

[felice]

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This action by our heroes conflicts with their stance against government curing mutants to which they see as too dangerous as having powers.

Would you say heroes killing a villain in self defence would conflict with their stance against genocide?

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, felice said:

Would you say heroes killing a villain in self defence would conflict with their stance against genocide?

I would say heroes committing genocide would conflict with their stance against genocide. When the heroes do the exact thing that they openly say they’re against, that is a contradiction.  The X-men in this instance tried to forcibly cure a mutant they saw as a threat. And the immediate aftermath have him suddenly become enlightened about how mad he’s been acting. 

[Darth Richard II]

Uh, there is no sudden enlightenment. At all. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

39 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Uh, there is no sudden enlightenment. At all. 

Yeah there kinda is;

on 2:29 Magneto asks “what have I done” showing himself finally realizing how colossally he’s fucked up. Mutant-Magneto would have greeted with Jean’s outburst with applause given his enemies would have likely been killed in the crossfire. Cured-Magneto greeted it with absolute horror. It’s not as if when he was a mutant that he didn’t know Jean was was that dangerous. It’s why he tried very much to recruit her.

He actively urges her to let loose when a mutant, yet only expresses regret for that after he’s been “cured”

[Darth Richard II]

I stand by my original claim of bad drugs.

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I stand by my original claim of bad drugs.

Instead of admitting you were wrong and conceding Magneto hadn’t become more enlightened upon his curing. Or at the very least, explaining why his expression of dismay at Jean going beserk does not show such a thing.