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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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17 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You didna tink people twere gonna read it now did ya?

Ohhh no mate, martin makes no mistakes and when it suits a someone to say so ebery arse in da books has faulty memory.

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Fair enough. I don't have muxh time to elaborate now, but my take on your previous post was that you were firmly on the "lemon tree in braavos = impossible" camp. 

 

I'm definitely open to it especially with so many missing details which may flesh it out later somehow. What I'm firmly against is that the narrative that Dany holds to now is the perfect and exact truth and ignoring the stuff the author's thrown out to make the reader question it, most especially the memories being shaky and filled with doubt. 

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In addition to what Lollygag posted we have from

WOW Mercy I

Spoiler

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

And from also from WOW Alyayne I:

Spoiler

And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.

      For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out.  Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites.  The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

 

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49 minutes ago, corbon said:

Nothing of relevance here. Lemons trees are common in private gardens in all sorts of completely unnatural real world locations because we are an incredibly wealthy society. And lemons in AsoIaF are clearly connected to wealth and luxury outside their natural climes. Nothing complicated and no special knowledge needed.

 Just some very perverse thinking to find a lemon tree in a big house in Bravos 'out of place'.
Plus ignoring her other memories of wandering from Bravos to Myr and more after being kicked out of the big house. 

Its right there in black and white, there is no reason to lie or deceive by the data giver, its backed up by other data points and there is nothing at all out of place.

Even though GRRM himself, has indicated that noting a lemon tree in Braavos being out of place is “very perceptive”.

 

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Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Even though GRRM himself, has indicated that noting a lemon tree in Braavos being out of place is “very perceptive”.

 

I've already addressed trying to make too much of George being coy, but the fact that Dany wasn't just in any old house but one of the "courts and gardens of the mighty" is a pretty sharp thing to recognize!

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've already addressed trying to make too much of George being coy, but the fact that Dany wasn't just in any old house but one of the "courts and gardens of the mighty" is a pretty sharp thing to recognize!

Maybe, but this is probably the least coy I’ve seen George answer a question, since his answer that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany.

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've already addressed trying to make too much of George being coy, but the fact that Dany wasn't just in any old house but one of the "courts and gardens of the mighty" is a pretty sharp thing to recognize!

I don't buy that GRRM wrote ASOIAF expecting the average reader to know Medieval/Medieval-based fantasy rich folk gardening habits. That's awful esoteric in a world where what should be common knowledge is woefully lacking (like 20% of British teens think Churchill is a fictional character!!!) And the text shows in the examples above that lemons aren't exclusive to the upper classes. 

Edited by Lollygag

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18 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Isn't this argument a bit out of date?  GRRM seems to have made it clear enough that he stands by his text.  

But the argument was never a good one.   Later drafts take precedence over early drafts.  Using early drafts to prove that later drafts are in error is ass-backwards logic.  And amateur investigators who try to reconstruct an author's creative process are almost always wrong.

In any event, the only thing that happened between the 2 drafts is that he changed the NAME of Dany's exile city.  Your assumption that, by changing the name, he also accidentally moved the city 1,500 miles north, is highly illogical.  If anything, the NAME of the city should have associated it with the South, not the North.  It is named after Italian-style "bravos" and has a culture roughly modeled on Venice. 

More likely, his decision to make his version of Venice into Dany's exile city, was also tied to his decision to take his version of Venice out of the Mediterranian, and move it north past the Farao Islands.

 

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7 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

More likely, his decision to make his version of Venice into Dany's exile city, was also tied to his decision to take his version of Venice out of the Mediterranian, and move it north past the Farao Islands.

 

Not quite.

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

This. Have a lemon tree in West Sussex 

West Sussex, is one of the sunnier regions of Southern England.  You'd have a much harder time in relatively cloudy cities like Edinburg, or Dublin.   And Braavos is apparently the cloudiest city imaginable, better to hide it from Valyria's dragons as they scout the coast from above.  It sometimes gets a little sunlight in the mornings, when the sun peaks in sideways under the cloud cover.  It's probably worse than the Farao Islands.

GRRM placed Braavos roughly 1,500 miles north of his version of the Mediterranean.  Do the math.  It's not West Sussex.  Seawater freezes in Braavos.

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23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Isn't this argument a bit out of date?  GRRM seems to have made it clear enough that he stands by his text.  

But the argument was never a good one.   Later drafts take precedence over early drafts.  Using early drafts to prove that later drafts are in error is ass-backwards logic.  And amateur investigators who try to reconstruct an author's creative process are almost always wrong.

In any event, the only thing that happened between the 2 drafts is that he changed the NAME of Dany's exile city.  Your assumption that, by changing the name, he also accidentally moved the city 1,500 miles north, is highly illogical.  If anything, the NAME of the city should have associated it with the South, not the North.  It is named after Italian-style "bravos" and has a culture roughly modeled on Venice. 

More likely, his decision to make his version of Venice into Dany's exile city, was also tied to his decision to take his version of Venice out of the Mediterranian, and move it north past the Farao Islands.

 

The only accident was that the change from Tyrosh to Braavos was not picked up when he sent his text to Azimov's Science Fiction. Similar discrepancies between TWOIAF and Sons were the result of the same sort of thing. 

My point is that the George very much intended that lemon tree to be associated with Daenerys as a signal that her arc would end in bitter disappointment. 

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14 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Are you really trying to convince me that Braavos is analogous to the South of France?  

How about Seattle, which is just a little south of Paris? 

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10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How about Seattle, which is just a little south of Paris? 

Both are north of the South of France.  And neither are like Braavos.  Seattle is very cloudy, though.  It would not be easy to grow lemons there.  But it is not, I think, as cloudy as Braavos.

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't buy that GRRM wrote ASOIAF expecting the average reader to know Medieval/Medieval-based fantasy rich folk gardening habits. That's awful esoteric in a world where what should be common knowledge is woefully lacking (like 20% of British teens think Churchill is a fictional character!!!)

There is no need to know this. And frankly I don;t think GRRM is aiming his writing at the woefully ignorant. He's writing a rich story that works better and better the more understanding one has on almost any level (including levels that I'd regard myself as woefully ignorant, or at least, unobservant of, such as symbolism).
All a reader needs to do is see what various people think of lemons. In places where lemons are 'native' they are commonplace. In places where lemons are not 'native', they are common amongst the wealthy, rare amongst the 'common' people.

Quote

And the text shows in the examples above that lemons aren't exclusive to the upper classes. 

The text shows they almost are exclusive, in areas where they are not 'native'. You just didn't pay much attention.

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

ASOS Arya II

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

Commoner in the riverlands.
Lemons are a luxury item "you fool".

Quote

TWOW Alayne I

For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out. Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

The highest ranks of power. 
Lemons are a luxury item. The trader character promises to get more from the sources he knows.
I doubt that it literally required every lemon in the Vale, but its a fair expression for Sansa to use - they clearly needed to sources lemons for multiple places within the vale to get enough. 
Lemons are a luxury item.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

A second, rival High King of Dorne also existed during the times of the First Men, ruling from a great wooden motte-and-bailey castle on the south bank of Greenwood near Lemonwood, where the river flows into the Summer Sea. This was a curious kingship, for whenever a king died, his successor was chosen by election from amongst a dozen noble families that had settled along the river or the eastern shores. The Wades, Shells, Holts, Brooks, Hulls, Lakes, Brownhills, and Briars all threw up kings who ruled from the high hall amongst the lemon trees, but in the end this curious system broke down when a disputed election set the royal houses to warring against one another. After a generation of conflict, three of the old houses were wiped from the earth, and the once-powerful river realm had shattered into a dozen quarrelsome petty kingdoms.

Lemons are native to Dorne.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

Only three leagues of coast road divided Sunspear from the Water Gardens, yet they were two different worlds. There children frolicked naked in the sun, music played in tiled courtyards, and the air was sharp with the smell of lemons and blood oranges.

Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying "War! War! To the spears!" One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

Dorne again.
Though still with the super-rich and powerful actually.
Here they are in a luxury setting, even though it is their native area.

Quote

A Feast for Crows—The Queenmaker

"We're almost there, Your Grace," Garin told Myrcella cheerfully when they spied more sandbeggars up ahead, a thicket of them growing all around the dry bed of a stream. The sun was beating down like a fiery hammer, but it did not matter with their journey at its end. They stopped to water the horses again, drank deep from their skins and wet their veils, then mounted for the last push. Within half a league they were riding over devilgrass and past olive groves. Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green. He gave a shout and raced ahead.

Dorne.
Native setting, not a luxury item.

Quote

ASOS Arya II

Lem took off his yellow cloak and waded in knee-deep to retrieve it, complaining all the while. "Do you think Sharna might have lemons down in that cellar of hers?" said Anguy to Tom as they watched Lem splash around, cursing. "A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons." He sounded wistful.

Riverlands. 

A commoner has had lemons once. Cooked by a Dornish girl.
Lemons are a luxury item outside Dorne and other hot climes.

Quote

ASOS Tyrion V

"Lemons?" Pod said hopefully. "A purple field strewn with lemons? For House Dalt? Of, of Lemonwood."  

These are Dornish coming to KL. Oddly enough, a Dornish house has lemons on its sigil.

Quote

And as to lemons being only for the rich see above and more below (and how would the average reader know this unless told)  

 

ADWD Tyrion VI

By the time Griff appeared on deck, the pike was spitting and sizzling over the brazier whilst Ysilla hovered over it with a lemon, squeezing.

In Essos near parts where lemons are native (Free Cities, not the most northern ones)
Plus Griff and crew are from major wealth and power, funded by Illyrio, a Lord and a hidden King. 

Quote

AGOT Arya V

She tied the pigeon to her belt and started down the street. A man was pushing a load of tarts by on a two-wheeled cart; the smells sang of blueberries and lemons and apricots. Her stomach made a hollow rumbly noise. "Could I have one?" she heard herself say. "A lemon, or … or any kind."

The pushcart man looked her up and down. Plainly he did not like what he saw. "Three coppers."

Kings Landing. So a more southern clime. Lemons are available to commoners, though not exactly cheap.

Quote

AGOT Jon IX (yeah, the NW is wealthy)

Jon opened a shuttered window, took the flagon of beer off the outside ledge, and filled a horn. Hobb had given him a lemon, still cold from the Wall. Jon crushed it in his fist. The juice trickled through his fingers. Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day, and claimed that was why he still had his own teeth.

Yes, the LC of the NW counts as wealth and power.

Quote

The Hedgeknight

The lamb was as good as any he had ever eaten, and the duck was even better, cooked with cherries and lemons and not near as greasy as most. The innkeep brought buttered pease as well, and oaten bread still hot from her oven. This is what it means to be a knight, he told himself as he sucked the last bit of meat off the bone. Good food, and ale whenever I want it, and no one to clout me in the head. He had a second tankard of ale with the meal, a third to wash it down, and a fourth because there was no one to tell him he couldn't, and when he was done he paid the woman with a silver stag and still got back a fistful of coppers.

Dunk is heading to Ashford, in the south, Not far from Dorne. Lemons are available to all, though too expensive for most commoners. Dunk is 'splashing out' here spending money on things he wouldn't normally have been able to afford.

More you missed:
The Dany memories (multiple references): A single memorable tree in a garden of wealth and power.
Illyrio's Manse is scented with among other things, lemons. Wealth and power, even in parts of Essos where they are native.
Sansa's love of Lemoncakes at Winterfell (multiple references): wealth and power.
Sam's upbringing (AGoT JonIV): lemoncakes in a place of wealth and power, in the Reach.
Lord Caswell serves Lemoncakes when Catelyn is hosted by King Renly. Wealth and power.
The Queen of Thorns (and later Margery' and her cousins) hosting Sansa with Lemoncakes: wealth and power.
Varys smelling of lemon: wealth and power
Ryman Frey bathed in lemonwater before teh Red Wedding: wealth and power
Nights Watch/King Stannis at the wall, using lemon water or wine: wealth and power

The list goes on. The simple fact is that lemons are relatively more common (native, cheap enough for poorer people to afford) in Dorne and other hot climates. In other climes they are still relatively common in the story, but always in immediate proximity of wealth and power. The sole, single exception, is Anguy's one time (cooked by a Dornish girl), which rather proves the rule that they are a luxury item in cool climes, though available pretty much everywhere for those who can afford such luxury, and only common in warmer climes.

Dany's  Bravos memory is a luxury situation. A large house, with servants. It is entirely appropriate for such a house to have a luxury item and for this to be memorable.
Heck, if she was in Dorne, a lemon tree would not be memorable at all!

Plus, still, everyone arguing against Bravos ignores her memories of what happened after the house in Bravos. How her and her brother wandered from Bravos to Myr to Tyrosh to Qohor and Volantis after being kicked out of the Bravos house.
 

Edited by corbon

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

West Sussex, is one of the sunnier regions of Southern England.  You'd have a much harder time in relatively cloudy cities like Edinburg,

Try Dunedin. Same (southern) latitude as Venice. Dun Edin. Where scots settlers thought the place so much like Edinburg they tried to replicate it. Where lemon trees are common in back yards.

 

Try London - cold, cloudy, seaport (nearly, up the Thames), damp.
https://www.alamy.com/the-lemon-tree-trust-garden-at-the-rhs-chelsea-flower-show-at-the-royal-hospital-chelsea-london-image185874732.html
https://plewsgardendesign.co.uk/3-trees-for-london-balconies-london-national-park-city-week/
https://dianacranstoun.com/tag/london-in-december/
https://www.batterseaflowerstation.co.uk/product/large-lemon-tree/
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-lemon-tree-in-the-pirelli-garden-victoria-and-albert-museum-cromwell-12576134.html

 

Edited by corbon

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

I've already addressed trying to make too much of George being coy, but the fact that Dany wasn't just in any old house but one of the "courts and gardens of the mighty" is a pretty sharp thing to recognize!

I agree that would be a pretty sharp thing to recognize and people generally parse his spoken words too much. But here's the thing I don't get: why did George go out of his way to give Sharna that line about lemons in ASOS, while being perfectly aware of Dany's backstory? Because to me it seems like a simple and straightforward clue that the lemon tree was in Dorne. I don't know how else to explain it. That's my Occam's razor take on it.

If it turns out to be nothing, and Dany did grow up in Braavos, I won't be super surprised but I will be confused about the purpose of that dialogue.

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51 minutes ago, corbon said:

There is no need to know this. And frankly I don;t think GRRM is aiming his writing at the woefully ignorant. He's writing a rich story that works better and better the more understanding one has on almost any level (including levels that I'd regard myself as woefully ignorant, or at least, unobservant of, such as symbolism).
All a reader needs to do is see what various people think of lemons. In places where lemons are 'native' they are commonplace. In places where lemons are not 'native', they are common amongst the wealthy, rare amongst the 'common' people.

The text shows they almost are exclusive, in areas where they are not 'native'. You just didn't pay much attention.

Commoner in the riverlands.
Lemons are a luxury item "you fool".

The highest ranks of power. 
Lemons are a luxury item. The trader character promises to get more from the sources he knows.
I doubt that it literally required every lemon in the Vale, but its a fair expression for Sansa to use - they clearly needed to sources lemons for multiple places within the vale to get enough. 
Lemons are a luxury item.

Lemons are native to Dorne.

Dorne again.
Though still with the super-rich and powerful actually.
Here they are in a luxury setting, even though it is their native area.

Dorne.
Native setting, not a luxury item.

Riverlands. 

A commoner has had lemons once. Cooked by a Dornish girl.
Lemons are a luxury item outside Dorne and other hot climes.

These are Dornish coming to KL. Oddly enough, a Dornish house has lemons on its sigil.

In Essos near parts where lemons are native (Free Cities, not the most northern ones)
Plus Griff and crew are from major wealth and power, funded by Illyrio, a Lord and a hidden King. 

Kings Landing. So a more southern clime. Lemons are available to commoners, though not exactly cheap.

Yes, the LC of the NW counts as wealth and power.

Dunk is heading to Ashford, in the south, Not far from Dorne. Lemons are available to all, though too expensive for most commoners. Dunk is 'splashing out' here spending money on things he wouldn't normally have been able to afford.

More you missed:
The Dany memories (multiple references): A single memorable tree in a garden of wealth and power.
Illyrio's Manse is scented with among other things, lemons. Wealth and power, even in parts of Essos where they are native.
Sansa's love of Lemoncakes at Winterfell (multiple references): wealth and power.
Sam's upbringing (AGoT JonIV): lemoncakes in a place of wealth and power, in the Reach.
Lord Caswell serves Lemoncakes when Catelyn is hosted by King Renly. Wealth and power.
The Queen of Thorns (and later Margery' and her cousins) hosting Sansa with Lemoncakes: wealth and power.
Varys smelling of lemon: wealth and power
Ryman Frey bathed in lemonwater before teh Red Wedding: wealth and power
Nights Watch/King Stannis at the wall, using lemon water or wine: wealth and power

The list goes on. The simple fact is that lemons are relatively more common (native, cheap enough for poorer people to afford) in Dorne and other hot climates. In other climes they are still relatively common in the story, but always in immediate proximity of wealth and power. The sole, single exception, is Anguy's one time (cooked by a Dornish girl), which rather proves the rule that they are a luxury item in cool climes, though available pretty much everywhere for those who can afford such luxury, and only common in warmer climes.

Dany's  Bravos memory is a luxury situation. A large house, with servants. It is entirely appropriate for such a house to have a luxury item and for this to be memorable.
Heck, if she was in Dorne, a lemon tree would not be memorable at all!

Plus, still, everyone arguing against Bravos ignores her memories of what happened after the house in Bravos. How her and her brother wandered from Bravos to Myr to Tyrosh to Qohor and Volantis after being kicked out of the Bravos house.
 

People who don't know Medieval/Medieval-based fantasy rich folk gardening habits are woefully ignorant? 

Lemon trees are overwhelmingly linked to Dorne contrary to what you initially claimed, not chilly, cloudy climates. I already showed this. Underscore Dany's memories being full of doubt meaning doubt has been planted into the readers' heads for some reason. Arya gets the no citrus in Braavos lecture. Dude doesn't tell her that only rich folk have citrus. He just says the trees aren't there. Would've been a great opportunity to clear that up, no? But it wasn't. There's also the great wooden beams when Arya says there are no trees. It doesn't add up. If you want to ignore that, go ahead. I'm staying on the fence on this one, but I'm not ignoring the Dorne/lemon thing as GRRM has seen fit to repeat it over and over and over. 

And for the record, lemon trees are very easy to grow from seed and seeds are easy to transport and plentiful in Dorne. You only need the right climate to grow it. But I don't expect the typical reader to know this and I don't think GRRM expected knowledge of this. Just FYI. So no, lemon trees or any tree easy to grow from seed when the seed is plentiful aren't just for the rich. 

Edited by Lollygag

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8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Assuming that Dany may have at least a memory of Dorne through her memory of the lemon tree, I think the most probable explanation is that Oberyn brought Dany with him when he signed the marriage contract with Darry.

That is a bit risky keeping Dany in Dorne ... can everyone be trusted? Dany doesn't look like your average Dornish 4 year old girl.

And if Dany was in Dorne after TOJ, how come she only sees one lemon tree? Why not a farm of lemon trees?

Was Viserys in on all this too? Knowing Dany was in Dorne the whole time? He is at an age where he would remember this.

 

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Right, and that's why I said I'm open to the possibility that she really did grow up in Braavos, just not at the sealord's palace as many people suggest

Now I'm giving the lemongaters the benefit of the doubt, let's say her lemon tree and red door was in Dorne....what is the point of all it?

R+L=D? B+A=J?

Daenerys Targaryen is a KNOWN Targaryen in the books, but wait she is a SECRET Targaryen instead?? How does her story change?

As a secret Stark, does she have claims to Winterfell? She has higher ambitions than just Winterfell you know?

 

Jon being a secret Dayne? To wield Dawn? It is all the way at the other side of the country, away from the fight he wants to fight.  Also, I guess he doesn't need Longclaw anymore.

 

I don't understand the objective of R+L=D and B+A=J.

Is it to be different than all the R+L=J believers? Technically I am on that same boat to be different too.

 

 

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