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Was Ser Waymar Royce a proper prick to Gared because he made fun of him?

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"His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. “Bet he killed them all himself, he did,” Gared told the barracks over wine, “twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior.” They had all shared the laugh. It is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups,"

 

Let's think of GRRM creating this character who's not a big part of the series (well, depends on how you look at it). He's going to figure out a backstory for him, think about what he looks and most importantly get into his mind. Maybe Royce had heard or overheard Gared's jape towards him? Royce is dismissive of Will and Gared's concerns when it comes to the danger while they are ranging but when it comes to Will he's more respectful to him and even kinda mentors a little bit, not something you would expect out of a character who is portrayed as young, cocky lord who has a superiority complex -

 

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“My mother told me that dead men sing no songs,”

 

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“My wet nurse said the same thing, Will,” Royce replied. “Never believe anything you hear at a woman’s tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead.

 

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“They couldn’t have froze. Not if the Wall was weeping. It wasn’t cold enough.”

 

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Bright lad. We’ve had a few light frosts this past week, and a quick flurry of snow now and then, but surely no cold fierce enough to kill eight grown men.

 

But when it comes to Gared he's a lot more prickly -

 

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“Do the dead frighten you?”

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“It does that every day about this time. Are you unmanned by the dark, Gared?”

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“Such eloquence, Gared,” Ser Waymar observed. “I never suspected you had it in you.”

 

Could the way Ser Waymar treated be payback for Gared's little jape and it's not just him being a shit to him for no reason since he doesn't do it to Will? 

 

NOTE: This is my first time analysing/theorising with the text like this. Usually I don't do this but ASOIAF is a special case and I thought why not do something original like analyse the first page (there wasn't much but there was something lol). Would like to hear your thoughts

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The Watch is a rather small group so him hearing or being told about it  isn't outta the question.

Edited by M.Alhazred

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I suppose he could've overheard him. I mean, Jon Snow made one jape at Alliser Thorne's expense, and they have been sworn enemies ever since. If we have learnt anything from ASOIAF, its that the highborn Lords are prickly cunts. 

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I don’t think it has to do with an insult from Gared as perceived by Royce. Gared insults Royce in the first place because Gared thinks he’s a jerk in general, and Royce’s behavior in the text bears that out.

I find it odd that Royce is leading the party in the first place. Doesn’t everyone start over at the Wall, highborn or not? Shouldn’t Gared be commanding Royce?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Sarah Michelle Gellar said:

I don’t think it has to do with an insult from Gared as perceived by Royce. Gared insults Royce in the first place because Gared thinks he’s a jerk in general, and Royce’s behavior in the text bears that out.

I find it odd that Royce is leading the party in the first place. Doesn’t everyone start over at the Wall, highborn or not? Shouldn’t Gared be commanding Royce?

I think it was said that since they get so few highborns at the wall in the prologue, the watch kind of let him take the lead on such an insignificant outing. But he should have been low man on the totem pole like you said.

Edited by The Last Storm

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On 6/12/2019 at 12:28 PM, The Last Storm said:

I think it was said that since they get so few highborns at the wall in the prologue, the watch kind of let him take the lead on such an insignificant outing

If it says this somewhere, I'm fairly certain it isn't the prologue. I just finished rereading that, and no mention. Maybe later in the story?

On 6/12/2019 at 7:41 AM, Sarah Michelle Gellar said:

I find it odd that Royce is leading the party in the first place. Doesn’t everyone start over at the Wall, highborn or not? Shouldn’t Gared be commanding Royce?

Especially since Ser Waymar had less than half a year's experience in the Night's Watch to Gared's forty. Either the meritocratic party line is empty rhetoric, or... Gared was super incompetent? It doesn't really jive.

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@Sarah Michelle Gellar

@The Last Storm

@Tibbie

Tyrion III, GoT

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Mormont scarcely seemed to hear him. The old man warmed his hands before the fire. "I sent Benjen Stark to search after Yohn Royce's son, lost on his first ranging. The Royce boy was green as summer grass, yet he insisted on the honor of his own command, saying it was his due as a knight. I did not wish to offend his lord father, so I yielded. I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I."

 

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On 2/1/2019 at 1:08 AM, flaydagawd said:

 

Let's think of GRRM creating this character who's not a big part of the series (well, depends on how you look at it). He's going to figure out a backstory for him, think about what he looks and most importantly get into his mind. Maybe Royce had heard or overheard Gared's jape towards him? Royce is dismissive of Will and Gared's concerns when it comes to the danger while they are ranging but when it comes to Will he's more respectful to him and even kinda mentors a little bit, not something you would expect out of a character who is portrayed as young, cocky lord who has a superiority complex -

 

 

 

 

 

But when it comes to Gared he's a lot more prickly -

 

 

Could the way Ser Waymar treated be payback for Gared's little jape and it's not just him being a shit to him for no reason since he doesn't do it to Will? 

 

NOTE: This is my first time analysing/theorising with the text like this. Usually I don't do this but ASOIAF is a special case and I thought why not do something original like analyse the first page (there wasn't much but there was something lol). Would like to hear your thoughts

This might factor into it, to some degree. But like most highborn's, Waymar was probably haughty and dismissive of commoners in general.

But I don't think Waymar was being unreasonable in insisting they investigate the dead wildlings. He is right that it is too warm for them to have frozen to death, so something else must have killed them. And no, he can't very well just go back to Castle Black and report that they were dead but offer no explanation as to who or what killed them and why, or confess that he himself never actually saw the bodies.

And when you think about it, we still don't have a satisfactory answer to this mystery. If the Others had killed them, there would have been signs of a struggle, wounds on the victims, blood on the ground . . . There's none of that.

At the end of the chapter, we find that Waymar has some moxie by bravely confronting this utterly unknown alien being and his five companions, and even puts up a good fight until his own sword gave out. Prick or not, Waymar died doing his duty while Gared cut and ran.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/15/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

This might factor into it, to some degree. But like most highborn's, Waymar was probably haughty and dismissive of commoners in general.

But I don't think Waymar was being unreasonable in insisting they investigate the dead wildlings. He is right that it is too warm for them to have frozen to death, so something else must have killed them. And no, he can't very well just go back to Castle Black and report that they were dead but offer no explanation as to who or what killed them and why, or confess that he himself never actually saw the bodies.

And when you think about it, we still don't have a satisfactory answer to this mystery. If the Others had killed them, there would have been signs of a struggle, wounds on the victims, blood on the ground . . . There's none of that.

At the end of the chapter, we find that Waymar has some moxie by bravely confronting this utterly unknown alien being and his five companions, and even puts up a good fight until his own sword gave out. Prick or not, Waymar died doing his duty while Gared cut and ran.

To be fair Royce obviously didnt think it was anything other than a wilding at first. His ego wouldnt let him run. Gared knew wtf that was and did what he should have. not die and let the knowledge die with him. If only Ned listened

Edited by The Last Storm

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On 7/17/2019 at 1:20 AM, The Last Storm said:

To be fair Royce obviously didnt think it was anything other than a wilding at first. His ego wouldnt let him run. Gared knew wtf that was and did what he should have. not die and let the knowledge die with him. If only Ned listened

I think it's pretty clear that by the time their swords met Waymar knows he was dealing with something other than human. He even tries to talk to it, his voice cracking in fear, and then 

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Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. Has hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

And Gared didn't run because he had knowledge to report back. He never reports back at all, in fact. When he finally gets caught, it is clear that he is being driven by fear.

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"The deserter died bravely," Robb said . . . "He had courage at the least."

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead with fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark."

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"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him."

So while Waymar confronted his fear and performed bravely, Gared surrendered to his and not only ran but deserted his order.

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Posted (edited)

Waymars cloak doesnt even have any wear yet. Gared had been with the watch for what, 20 years? Im saying Waymars ego more than anything is what drove him. His highborn ass  believes hes better than these rapists and horse-thiefs. Out of the 3 who went beyond the wall who is the least qualified to be leading? 

Edited by The Last Storm

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18 hours ago, The Last Storm said:

Waymars cloak doesnt even have any wear yet. Gared had been with the watch for what, 20 years? Im saying Waymars ego more than anything is what drove him. His highborn ass  believes hes better than these rapists and horse-thiefs. Out of the 3 who went beyond the wall who is the least qualified to be leading? 

OK, but I'm talking about who acted bravely in the end and who was the coward. Waymar made the right decision to investigate the bodies -- partly because of his ego, but partly because it was the right thing to do -- while Gared wanted to just split back to Castle Black, and then Waymar faced his fears and confronted the enemy while Gared cut and ran -- not to report back to The Night's Watch but to save his own skin.

In the end, it was Waymar who lived up to his vows as a watchman, not Gared.

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On 7/19/2019 at 10:15 AM, John Suburbs said:

 

i guess if we look at it in terms of who did their duty to the watch in this instance, we would have to say Royce . But its his first rodeo, and it was more out of ignorance than anything. I will say I admire his balls. 

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On 7/15/2019 at 4:56 PM, John Suburbs said:

And when you think about it, we still don't have a satisfactory answer to this mystery. If the Others had killed them, there would have been signs of a struggle, wounds on the victims, blood on the ground . . . There's none of that.

Will mentioning that the far-eye in the tree also did not move suggests the Others froze them to death. No, you don't need to see a struggle, wounds or blood for the Others to kill you. They're so cold they manage to make a steel blade frost up and lower it temperature so much that steel becomes too brittle and breaks. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2019 at 6:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

And Gared didn't run because he had knowledge to report back. He never reports back at all, in fact. When he finally gets caught, it is clear that he is being driven by fear.

Gared was ordered to remain with the horses and no fire. Meanwhile the missing wildlings we are sure have turned into something like Waymar Royce at the end (wights). They certainly were not at the scene of Waymar, so it is entirely possible they shambled into Gared. Did he run immediately? Or did he put up a fight? He might have, until more came and even more and a dagger does nothing against them. It's not as if NW brothers running from wights can be argued to be cowardly given later events. 

He gets through the Wall somewhere, but not via Castle Black (which is entirely possible). George avoids giving us a word per word account of what Gared says to the men who "captured" him and to Ned. We only learn of Ned's and Jon's general assessment of it, which may be a very mistaken assessment. It is entirely possible that Gared wished to alert the Starks. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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Waymar had the arrogance of being a knight, being of nobility and being youthful. It is clear that Will is amenable, someone who tries to make compromises and be helpful. Will is not one to debate with Royce and thus will not question his authority. Gared as the far more experienced ranger can characteristically question Royce's authority far easier. Men who've ranged for two decades are well respected amongst the NW. And though the NW does lean to putting men of nobility in commanding positions, common born men with experience can rise high in ranks too. 

Gared heeds the warnings of the trees, the wolf and the wind, because they actually mean something, something that Royce would have considered old Nan tales. And ye, kudoz on mistaken Royce making a brave but pointless stand.  

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18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Will mentioning that the far-eye in the tree also did not move suggests the Others froze them to death. No, you don't need to see a struggle, wounds or blood for the Others to kill you. They're so cold they manage to make a steel blade frost up and lower it temperature so much that steel becomes too brittle and breaks. 

The way Will described the dead bodies, there was no fight at all. The battleaxe was leaning against a tree, not shattered into a million shards like Waymar's sword. If the Others can just freeze you where you lie, then why didn't they do that to Will and Waymar. Why do they bother with swords at all?

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Gared was ordered to remain with the horses and no fire. Meanwhile the missing wildlings we are sure have turned into something like Waymar Royce at the end (wights). They certainly were not at the scene of Waymar, so it is entirely possible they shambled into Gared. Did he run immediately? Or did he put up a fight? He might have, until more came and even more and a dagger does nothing against them. It's not as if NW brothers running from wights can be argued to be cowardly given later events. 

He gets through the Wall somewhere, but not via Castle Black (which is entirely possible). George avoids giving us a word per word account of what Gared says to the men who "captured" him and to Ned. We only learn of Ned's and Jon's general assessment of it, which may be a very mistaken assessment. It is entirely possible that Gared wished to alert the Starks. 

It's not just that he ran, but that he then abandoned the NW without telling his superiors what happened. That is dereliction of duty and disputes the notion that Gared simply retreated from battle in order to tell the tale.

Why would he sneak past the Wall in order to inform the Starks but not his own Lord Commander? Gared has no connection to the Starks as far as we know, and both Jon and Ned say he was mad with fear. Understandable as that may be given what he experienced, he nevertheless failed to face his fears and do what was right. He just cut and ran. The only person in the trio to actually lives up to the ideals of the Night's Watch is Waymar, the least experienced ranger on the scene.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2019 at 11:41 PM, Sarah Michelle Gellar said:

I find it odd that Royce is leading the party in the first place. Doesn’t everyone start over at the Wall, highborn or not? Shouldn’t Gared be commanding Royce?

The thing is that highborns have been trained all their lives to lead and fight. They've had masters at arms and maesters teaching them, and have been able to practice daily at their castle yards. They've been better nurtured since birth. And they've brought their own equipment to the wall, meaning that they'll have better horses, better armors, and better swords.

And I'm completely with John Suburbs on that one. Wymar proved that he was worthy of the command. He was insightful, courageous, and loyal. Meanwhile, Gared acted cowardly and failed the Watch.

Edited by The hairy bear

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21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The thing is that highborns have been trained all their lives to lead and fight. They've had masters at arms and maesters teaching them, and have been able to practice daily at their castle yards. They've been better nurtured since birth. And they've brought they're own equipment to the wall, meaning that they've have better horses, better armors, and better swords.

And I'm completely with John Suburbs on that one. Wymar proved that he was worthy of the command. He was insightful, courageous, and loyal. Meanwhile, Gared acted cowardly and failed the Watch.

There's also the fact that if the Old Bear expects to get more recruits from the Royce's, he needs to treat this young lordling with some deference.

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Posted (edited)

Mourmount probably looked at Royce as a potential successor someday, or at the very least someone who would likely become a high ranking officer.  

By their very nature, nobles who volunteer for the watch are going to end up being trusted leaders.  They've got the skills, the connections, and they're there because they WANT to be.   Its going to be a rare penal draftee who goes far in the watch.  They lack upbringing and training, and most often they lack motivation unless the watch instills it into them.

If Royce hadn't run into the others, he'd have gone on a regular ranging, learned from it, and become a better brother.  A few more and he might have gotten over his ego, and his skills would certainly have earned the respect of the men eventually.

Edited by argonak

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