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Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

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5 hours ago, St Daga said:

maiden. I think at one point @Feather Crystal had mentioned the idea that Robert was somehow behind or part of Lyanna's kidnapping, and this idea suddenly struck me as fitting the Thief/Smith stealing a maid, and how that could apply to Robert and Lyanna. 

Yes, I thought Robert was very Smith-like with his war hammer and as a Storm Lord a very good parallel to Durran Godsgrief with Lyanna as a parallel to Elenei.

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Since things have stalled a bit...this little tidbit could also be considered a walk on the dark side, but in a different way. It's predicting the death of a major character: Sam Tarly.

There's a thread on this forum discussing who people think the Prologue of Winds will be. I think it was @St Daga that pointed out there is a pattern to the Prologues:

AGOT - Beyond the Wall - Royce then Will dies. Gared executed.

ACOK - Maester Cressen

ASOS - Beyond the Wall - Chett dies

AFFC - Acolyte at the Citadel - Pate dies

ADWD - Beyond the Wall - Varamyr dies

TWOW - Should be a maester or someone at the Citadel. It could be Sam, because the pattern with the maesters has gone from very old maester to very new maester, which might be a hint at someone that has just arrived to enroll - which is Sam.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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There is also Sam's dream:

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

Gilly smelled of milk and garlic and musty old fur, but he was used to that by now. They were good smells, so far as Sam was concerned. He liked sleeping next to her. It made him remember times long past, when he had shared a huge bed at Horn Hill with two of his sisters. That had ended when Lord Randyll decided it was making him soft as a girl. Sleeping alone in my own cold cell never made me any harder or braver, though. He wondered what his father would say if he could see him now. I killed one of the Others, my lord, he imagined saying. I stabbed him with an obsidian dagger, and my Sworn Brothers call me Sam the Slayer now. But even in his fancies, Lord Randyll only scowled, disbelieving.
His dreams were strange that night. He was back at Horn Hill, at the castle, but his father was not there. It was Sam's castle now. Jon Snow was with him. Lord Mormont too, the Old Bear, and Grenn and Dolorous Edd and Pyp and Toad and all his other brothers from the Watch, but they wore bright colors instead of black. Sam sat at the high table and feasted them all, cutting thick slices off a roast with his father's greatsword Heartsbane. There were sweet cakes to eat and honeyed wine to drink, there was singing and dancing, and everyone was warm. When the feast was done he went up to sleep; not to the lord's bedchamber where his mother and father lived but to the room he had once shared with his sisters. Only instead of his sisters it was Gilly waiting in the huge soft bed, wearing nothing but a big shaggy fur, milk leaking from her breasts.
He woke suddenly, in cold and dread.

 

This seems like foreshadowing to me.  Same presiding over a feast of the dead.

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Hmm, I have no idea who (if anyone) will die in the TWOW prologue (if there is one).

However, I'd be surprised if Sam ever dies in the series, and I think the dream above is a pretty standard wish fulfillment sort of thing. 

The last thought he has before he falls asleep is that his father wouldn't even credit him with killing a  Popsicle, if he were told so.  This is probably true, and the fatherless dream seems a reaction to Sam's annoyance at that situation. 

Basically: "Dad's a total asswipe, so I'm going to dream of being Lord of Horn Hill instead of him.  In this dream, I have totally taken Dad's place, I control everything, and he is completely gone.  So I get to do whatever I want, like hold a feast for all the people I like best."

The people in it, dressed in bright colors, are quite happy, Sam owns and uses Heartsbane instead of his father, there's excellent food (Sam's oldest joy), and he sleeps in his favorite bedroom again... but with Gilly now instead of his sisters.  

GRRM's own relationship  with his father seems not to have been a completely happy one.  I suspect that if he'd told his father all the success he was going  to have, his father would never have believed that, either.

Also, the reason Sam wakes up in dread isn't the dream.  It's that a wight (Small Paul) has just turned up and he's aware of that on an unconscious level.

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22 minutes ago, JNR said:

Hmm, I have no idea who (if anyone) will die in the TWOW prologue (if there is one).

However, I'd be surprised if Sam ever dies in the series, and I think the dream above is a pretty standard wish fulfillment sort of thing. 

The last thought he has before he falls asleep is that his father wouldn't even credit him with killing a  Popsicle, if he were told so.  This is probably true, and the fatherless dream seems a reaction to Sam's annoyance at that situation. 

Basically: "Dad's a total asswipe, so I'm going to dream of being Lord of Horn Hill instead of him.  In this dream, I have totally taken Dad's place, I control everything, and he is completely gone.  So I get to do whatever I want, like hold a feast for all the people I like best."

The people in it, dressed in bright colors, are quite happy, Sam owns and uses Heartsbane instead of his father, there's excellent food (Sam's oldest joy), and he sleeps in his favorite bedroom again... but with Gilly now instead of his sisters.  

GRRM's own relationship  with his father seems not to have been a completely happy one.  I suspect that if he'd told his father all the success he was going  to have, his father would never have believed that, either.

Also, the reason Sam wakes up in dread isn't the dream.  It's that a wight (Small Paul) has just turned up and he's aware of that on an unconscious level.

Sure, I can accept that interpretation as well. 

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GRRM teased years ago that Jeyne Westerling would appear in the TWOW Prologue (though not necessarily as the viewpoint character), and I believe she was last seen being sent off from Riverrun with the other Westerlings, along with an armed escort. My assumption is that the TWOW prologue will feature that group running afoul of either Nymeria's pack, or the BwB.

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8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There's a thread on this forum discussing who people think the Prologue of Winds will be. I think it was @St Daga that pointed out there is a pattern to the Prologues:

AGOT - Beyond the Wall - Royce then Will dies. Gared executed.

ACOK - Maester Cressen

ASOS - Beyond the Wall - Chett dies

AFFC - Acolyte at the Citadel - Pate dies

ADWD - Beyond the Wall - Varamyr dies

TWOW - Should be a maester or someone at the Citadel. It could be Sam, because the pattern with the maesters has gone from very old maester to very new maester, which might be a hint at someone that has just arrived to enroll - which is Sam.

It wasn't me, but there does seem to be some type of pattern. As someone mentioned, there has been some rumors that the Prologue of Winds might involve Jeyne Westerling or someone close to her. Whomever the Prologue POV is, they will most likely be ending their story at that point, so I hope it's not Sam. I think there is something more to his story, or I hope so. I almost assume that the prologue will involve Stoneheart and/or the Brotherhood w/o Banners.

 

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8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Since things have stalled a bit...this little tidbit could also be considered a walk on the dark side, but in a different way. It's predicting the death of a major character: Sam Tarly.

There's a thread on this forum discussing who people think the Prologue of Winds will be. I think it was @St Daga that pointed out there is a pattern to the Prologues:

AGOT - Beyond the Wall - Royce then Will dies. Gared executed.

ACOK - Maester Cressen

ASOS - Beyond the Wall - Chett dies

AFFC - Acolyte at the Citadel - Pate dies

ADWD - Beyond the Wall - Varamyr dies

TWOW - Should be a maester or someone at the Citadel. It could be Sam, because the pattern with the maesters has gone from very old maester to very new maester, which might be a hint at someone that has just arrived to enroll - which is Sam.

The more obvious pattern is every single prologue involves someone who never previously had a POV and dies in their prologue (including Cressen). 

I'd be shocked if GRRM breaks this pattern with Sam.  Very few characters are safe with GRRM, but I'd be shocked if Sam was killed off right away.  And even if he was, this pattern is still broken as Sam previously had a POV.

The pattern with the maester's alternating prologues seems interesting, but gets less interesting the more I think about it.  To start, is there any reason GRRM would do this?  I don't really seem him picking an arbitrary pattern for something so important.  And we only have 2 prologues to base this pattern on, and then they aren't the same - 1 is a maester who isn't at the citadel, the other is a character at the citadel who isn't a maester.

May as well say that Walder Frey is the next prologue chacter, since after Cressen they are all alphabetical.

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:
Quote
His dreams were strange that night. He was back at Horn Hill, at the castle, but his father was not there. It was Sam's castle now. Jon Snow was with him. Lord Mormont too, the Old Bear, and Grenn and Dolorous Edd and Pyp and Toad and all his other brothers from the Watch, but they wore bright colors instead of black. Sam sat at the high table and feasted them all, cutting thick slices off a roast with his father's greatsword Heartsbane. There were sweet cakes to eat and honeyed wine to drink, there was singing and dancing, and everyone was warm. When the feast was done he went up to sleep; not to the lord's bedchamber where his mother and father lived but to the room he had once shared with his sisters. Only instead of his sisters it was Gilly waiting in the huge soft bed, wearing nothing but a big shaggy fur, milk leaking from her breasts.
He woke suddenly, in cold and dread.
This seems like foreshadowing to me.  Same presiding over a feast of the dead.

Parts of this does remind of the imagery that Theon has of the feast for the dead at Winterfell, but in that dream all of those that are viewed are described with their injuries,  but in the case of Sam's dream, they seem to be whole. And Mormont is the only person confirmed dead, I think, of all the men listed. It does seem to be very driven towards the Night's Watch, but without the black cloths and cold accommodations. In some ways, the idea of feasting with plenty of foods, with singing and dancing and warmth, reminds  me of Robert talking about the benefit's of "summer" to Ned while they walked the halls of the Kings of Winter. It also reminds me of the idea of kingship in some way, but I can't quite describe it correctly. I am pretty confused by Sam's dream, really! Is it wishful on his part, or is someone sending him this dream?

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14 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The more obvious pattern is every single prologue involves someone who never previously had a POV and dies in their prologue (including Cressen). 

I'd be shocked if GRRM breaks this pattern with Sam.  Very few characters are safe with GRRM, but I'd be shocked if Sam was killed off right away.  And even if he was, this pattern is still broken as Sam previously had a POV.

The pattern with the maester's alternating prologues seems interesting, but gets less interesting the more I think about it.  To start, is there any reason GRRM would do this?  I don't really seem him picking an arbitrary pattern for something so important.  And we only have 2 prologues to base this pattern on, and then they aren't the same - 1 is a maester who isn't at the citadel, the other is a character at the citadel who isn't a maester.

May as well say that Walder Frey is the next prologue chacter, since after Cressen they are all alphabetical.

Beyond the Wall, Maester, Beyond the Wall, Maester, Beyond the Wall - looks like some maester's number is up. If it's not Sam it's some other maester.

I've seen Jeyne mentioned before as a possible prologue, but I cannot locate the SSM. Please share if you have it.

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The Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer stuff was all a prophetic fable about Brexit,was it not?

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Beyond the Wall, Maester, Beyond the Wall, Apprentice, Beyond the Wall

Can GRRM even kill another prologue character?  It kind of ruins a chapter when you know the main character dies at the end.

Oh my God, they killed Kenny! 

Edited by Brad Stark

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I've seen Jeyne mentioned before as a possible prologue, but I cannot locate the SSM. Please share if you have it.

Sure... it's here.

Quote

“Let me make this clear here: I didn’t say she was the viewpoint character. I said she was in the prologue. It’s the viewpoint character who always dies,” he says. “I like to break rules. Just when I get it established what the rule is, I like to break it. So maybe the viewpoint character will die in the prologue, and maybe they won’t.”

Typical evasive and ambiguous GRRM.  All we know is that Jeyne Westerling is in the prologue, full stop.

What we don't know: that anyone besides him will ever read the prologue, that TWOW will ever be published, that he won't change his mind about any of this stuff prior to pub date if it is published, etc.

Edited by JNR

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I remember Jeyne's mother giving her potions to prevent pregnancy.  If that is correct, did we ever learn why? 

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24 minutes ago, JNR said:

Sure... it's here.

Typical evasive and ambiguous GRRM.  All we know is that Jeyne Westerling is in the prologue, full stop.

What we don't know: that anyone besides him will ever read the prologue, that TWOW will ever be published, that he won't change his mind about any of this stuff prior to pub date if it is published, etc.

Interesting, thank you. Well, surely the Crag has a maester?

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It is plausible that Jeyne's mother gave Rob a love potion similar to what Maggy the frog sold, then gave her a potion to keep her from getting pregnant, all while working for Tywin.  She may have directly caused the Red Wedding on purpose.  But why? 

Why sacrifice a daughter to help the Lannisters?  She got her brother a minor title and a few arranged marriages, but that is nothing compared to what Rob would have given her.  Jeyne would be Queen and her son would be King and I am sure they could have found titles and marriages for the rest of the family. 

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4 hours ago, redriver said:

The Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer stuff was all a prophetic fable about Brexit,was it not?

Yes, because Azor Ahai sounds like a sailor from Portugal with a pronounciation issue (Azores Ahoi?).

But if the Lion (England) and Nissa Nissa (?) have to die to win the endgame, who is the big bad?

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Why sacrifice a daughter to help the Lannisters?  She got her brother a minor title and a few arranged marriages, but that is nothing compared to what Rob would have given her.  Jeyne would be Queen and her son would be King and I am sure they could have found titles and marriages for the rest of the family. 

This is a good question. Perhaps Sybell Spicer Westerling feared Tywin's revenge so much that she felt she must dig her family out of the hole that the marriage might have created. Of course, in this scenario, then she would not have been part of trapping Robb. As you mention, it seems like the Westerling's only would benefit from their new association with the north, so why Sybell would try to keep Robb and Jeyne from conceiving has always puzzled me IF they truly wanted to better their position. Even in the end, if Sybell knowingly helped destroy Robb, she didn't really receive much in recompense from Tywin. 

But perhaps with Sybell being a descendant of Maggy the Frog, some family prophecy was handed down that Sybell thinks she is helping to fulfill. We have certainly seen a lot of people do questionable things in hopes of fulfilling some ancient prophecy. :dunno:

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Just now, alienarea said:

Yes, because Azor Ahai sounds like a sailor from Portugal with a pronounciation issue (Azores Ahoi?).

But if the Lion (England) and Nissa Nissa (?) have to die to win the endgame, who is the big bad?

As far as the average reader is concerned that's the EU,but we secretly know it's Jacob R-Mogg really.

Wrt to your question posed in OP thoughts are forthcoming.Although to give you a preview,the answer is essentially no.

But it is a good question.......

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12 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is a good question. Perhaps Sybell Spicer Westerling feared Tywin's revenge so much that she felt she must dig her family out of the hole that the marriage might have created. Of course, in this scenario, then she would not have been part of trapping Robb. As you mention, it seems like the Westerling's only would benefit from their new association with the north, so why Sybell would try to keep Robb and Jeyne from conceiving has always puzzled me IF they truly wanted to better their position. Even in the end, if Sybell knowingly helped destroy Robb, she didn't really receive much in recompense from Tywin. 

But perhaps with Sybell being a descendant of Maggy the Frog, some family prophecy was handed down that Sybell thinks she is helping to fulfill. We have certainly seen a lot of people do questionable things in hopes of fulfilling some ancient prophecy. :dunno:

What if Sybell lied to Tywin that that Jeyne had been stuffed with potions. After all carrying Robb's child would be a death sentence. A secret but legitimate Stark heir could be interesting

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