Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[St Daga]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Is her palm black, or are the pedals black? I vote flower pedals.

Quote

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

 

From my first read of the story, I thought this wording was so odd, how the emphasis is so vague. What does the dead and black refer to? The rose petals or the palms? For years and years, I felt like it was a reference to Lyanna's palms, which could fit the idea that Stark's end up like wights, regardless of where they die and all that is hinted at in the idea of Stark's as being hard to kill. It is only in the last year that I have looked again at the rose petals. And not that I think Lyanna is clutching the very rose crown that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal (blech ) as many people who support the Rhaegar and Lyanna sitting in a tree, KISSING love story version, BUT Lyanna is connected to blue roses outside of Rhaegar's gift. Blue roses are associated with Stark maidens and blue roses are associated with the glass garden's of Winterfell, and strangely enough, we are told the glass in those gardens is yellow and green, which stands out to me as an odd detail, something to pay attention too.

In that Heresy a while back, I think it was @Tucu that posted the color filter chart, and it highlighted that a filter of yellow and green could make blue roses appear black, and also that a red filter could make blue roses look black. Of course, it would not surprise me if Lyanna did die in a brothel (since brothels seem to be a trigger for the Neddard), but I think the glass gardens at Winterfell are just as likely. It ties to Bran and Jon's thoughts. This reveal will be important to Jon, since I do think Lyanna was his mother, and this also fits my idea for years now that Jon was born in the north, most likely at Winterfell but also the Wolf's Den in White Harbor is possible, This reveal will probably come to us through Bran in the story, since he is connected to the visions of the weirnet, which is why we get some of the glass garden imagery from him. 

So, I can see both options, but I am currently thinking it's the roses that are black. But if it turns out to be Lyanna's palms, it will not surprise me a bit!

[JNR]

12 hours ago, Mullocose said:

Can you point us toward this 'frequently cited passage' from the app? 

Sure:

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Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

This is simply not the truth, and you don't need any special insight into the text to see why. 

You just need to understand that Aerys would have had, halfway into the war, much better things to do with Lyanna Stark, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the Sword of the Morning, and another member of the Kingsguard... than leave them in an isolated tower so small, Ned and Howland were able to pull it down alone.

This is why I asked Ran how it was that Aerys did not, for instance, take Lyanna hostage and notify Ned and Robert.

He said Aerys was too insane to think of that.

So I pointed out Aerys did take Elia Martell hostage, he did notify the Martells of that, and he did it at the exact same time he supposedly knew where Lyanna was.

Ran had no reply to that at all.

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Is her palm black, or are the pedals black? I vote flower pedals.

 

That's what I'm going with as well. 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's what I'm going with as well. 

How can there be any debate?  GRRM does not hide twists by poor wording.   If Lyanna's palm was dead and black, that would be extremely unusual and GRRM or editor would have realized the reader would think about the rose petals being dead and black.   The way it is worded now, a hundred people can read it without one noticing it could refer to a black palm.

If this were his intention, he would have written 

"rose petals spilling from her dead, black hand."

Note that the way it is worded now, only 1 palm, not even a whole hand, is dead and black. 

This still is an interesting passage.   Why would she be holding rose petals so far gone they turned black?  If she loved Rheagar, and he gave her the roses before he died, she may have wanted to hold them until they decayed and fell apart. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

From my first read of the story, I thought this wording was so odd, how the emphasis is so vague. What does the dead and black refer to? The rose petals or the palms? For years and years, I felt like it was a reference to Lyanna's palms, which could fit the idea that Stark's end up like wights, regardless of where they die and all that is hinted at in the idea of Stark's as being hard to kill. It is only in the last year that I have looked again at the rose petals. And not that I think Lyanna is clutching the very rose crown that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal (blech ) as many people who support the Rhaegar and Lyanna sitting in a tree, KISSING love story version, BUT Lyanna is connected to blue roses outside of Rhaegar's gift. Blue roses are associated with Stark maidens and blue roses are associated with the glass garden's of Winterfell, and strangely enough, we are told the glass in those gardens is yellow and green, which stands out to me as an odd detail, something to pay attention too.

In that Heresy a while back, I think it was @Tucu that posted the color filter chart, and it highlighted that a filter of yellow and green could make blue roses appear black, and also that a red filter could make blue roses look black. Of course, it would not surprise me if Lyanna did die in a brothel (since brothels seem to be a trigger for the Neddard), but I think the glass gardens at Winterfell are just as likely. It ties to Bran and Jon's thoughts. This reveal will be important to Jon, since I do think Lyanna was his mother, and this also fits my idea for years now that Jon was born in the north, most likely at Winterfell but also the Wolf's Den in White Harbor is possible, This reveal will probably come to us through Bran in the story, since he is connected to the visions of the weirnet, which is why we get some of the glass garden imagery from him. 

So, I can see both options, but I am currently thinking it's the roses that are black. But if it turns out to be Lyanna's palms, it will not surprise me a bit!

Right now I am leaning towards the explanation that the description is for the rose petals, however I don't believe Lyanna was actually holding any rose petals when she died. I think this is meant to be symbolic just as I think the hidden thorns and the color of the roses are also symbolic. If Rhaegar intended the laurel to be an honor, then you could view the acknowledgement as having unforeseen "thorns", meaning consequences - death, with "blue" being symbolic of death.

I do appreciate the stained glass coloring making blue appear black, because I am now open to Lyanna being found in a sept! (I might be changing my mind again!) If memory serves, Egg (Aegon V) was kept hostage in a sept - in Stoney Sept, of all places!
 

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Dunk reached up and wrapped his good hand around Plumm's neck. "Speak plain. I am sick of hints and winks. Tell me where to find the boy, or I will snap your bloody neck, friend or no."

"The Sept. You would do well to go armed." Ser Maynard smiled. "Is that plain enough for you, Dunk?"

 

If you believe my theory that the titled chapters tell two stories with one hidden among the parallels, symbolism, and metaphors, then you might be interested in some of my first impressions from the Mercy chapter in Winds. I was puzzling over something that didn't make sense until just now. First a couple possible parallels for various characters in this chapter:

Mercy = Lyanna

Izembaro (aka King of the Mummers) = Robert Baratheon

Big Brusco = Hoster Tully

The Bloody Hand = Tywin's plan

Bobono = not totally sure who this person is a mirror to, but he is described as a dwarf with a (fake) foot-long cock with a bulbous plumb colored head, which is how Brown Ben Plumm is described except that it's said his father had a six-foot long cock, because he was long dead and in the grave when Ben was born.

Ser Maynard Plumm is the one that told Dunk where to find Egg - in the sept in Stoney Sept. In the Mercy chapter, Bobono is supposed to rape Mercy on stage in a play titled, The Bloody Hand, which makes me wonder if Brown Ben Plumm raped or at least found Lyanna in the sept in Stoney Sept? Alternately, perhaps we're only to make the connection from Brown Ben Plumm to his relative, Maynard Plumm, because Maynard knew where Egg was - in the sept. Brown Ben then is just our clue that Lyanna was held and found in the sept in Stoney Sept.

I had already identified Brusco as being Hoster Tully in the Cat of the Canals chapter. In the Mercy chapter he tells Mercy that Izembaro keeps asking for her. To me this sounds like Robert asked Hoster for Lyanna, which makes it sound like they both knew she was being held somewhere in Stoney Sept. In the Dunk and Egg story, Lord Ambrose Butterwell was responsible for hiding Egg in the sept. I haven't figured out who might be Lyanna's Lord Butterwell.

At the end of the chapter, Mercy kills Raff the Sweetling in such a way as to mirror her old friend Lommy. Lommy couldn't walk and had asked Raff to carry him, but Raff put a spear through his throat. I had identified Lommy as being (maybe) a parallel to Howland, and wondered if he had been injured and couldn't walk, and that is how he got separated from Lyanna. 

Raff the Sweetling is one of Gregor Clegane's men. When Mercy (Arya) kills him she cuts his femoral artery in his thigh so that he cannot walk. 

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“Help me,” he pleaded, as the crotch of his breeches reddened. “Mother have
mercy, girl. A healer… run and find a healer, quick now.”

“There’s one on the next canal, but he won’t come. You have to go to him. Can’t you walk?”

“Walk?” His fingers were slick with blood. “Are you blind, girl? I’m bleeding like a stuck pig. I can’t walk on this.”

“Well,” she said, “I don’t know how you’ll get there, then.”

“You’ll need to carry me.”

See? thought Mercy. You know your line, and so do I. “Think so?” asked Arya, sweetly.

 

I suspect that the femoral artery injury is meant to be symbolic of Lyanna's rape - the blood running down the thigh imagery seems like the aftermath of a rape to me. I'm also wondering if the reason why Arya is named "Mercy" in this chapter is perhaps due to someone giving Lyanna the "gift" of mercy? It makes me wonder if Ned found Lyanna raped and dying a slow agonizing death from her savage injuries, and that she pleaded with Ned to give her the gift of mercy? It could explain how Ned's killing of Lady caused him to think of Lyanna, and his thoughts that she deserved better than a butcher. 

Stoney Sept is old. It's a settlement that existed prior to Aegon's Conquest, and it has suffered from being the location of multiple battles and burnings. There's also an old tower by the sept, but it is still noted as standing in ASOS Arya chapter 29, so it couldn't be the tower Ned pulled down, but the sept itself is described as being "old" and on top of a hill, implying that there might be a newer sept. The bells that the town is known for are in the standing tower, so it is possible that the "old" sept once had a crumbling tower that Ned pulled down, and that the hill might be the locations of the cairns of Ned's men. I still think the three Kingsguard were fought at Maegor's Holdfast though.

 

6 hours ago, JNR said:

Sure:

This is simply not the truth, and you don't need any special insight into the text to see why. 

You just need to understand that Aerys would have had, halfway into the war, much better things to do with Lyanna Stark, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the Sword of the Morning, and another member of the Kingsguard... than leave them in an isolated tower so small, Ned and Howland were able to pull it down alone.

This is why I asked Ran how it was that Aerys did not, for instance, take Lyanna hostage and notify Ned and Robert.

He said Aerys was too insane to think of that.

So I pointed out Aerys did take Elia Martell hostage, he did notify the Martells of that, and he did it at the exact same time he supposedly knew where Lyanna was.

Ran had no reply to that at all.

Good point, JNR!

[alienarea]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Is her palm black, or are the pedals black? I vote flower pedals.

 

'... as she gave up her clutch on life.' Lyanna dies, she cannot be a wight. It's the petals.

No pedals, though  For a moment I thought we had cornered the teleporter.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

How can there be any debate?  GRRM does not hide twists by poor wording.   If Lyanna's palm was dead and black, that would be extremely unusual and GRRM or editor would have realized the reader would think about the rose petals being dead and black.   The way it is worded now, a hundred people can read it without one noticing it could refer to a black palm.

If this were his intention, he would have written 

"rose petals spilling from her dead, black hand."

Note that the way it is worded now, only 1 palm, not even a whole hand, is dead and black. 

This still is an interesting passage.   Why would she be holding rose petals so far gone they turned black?  If she loved Rheagar, and he gave her the roses before he died, she may have wanted to hold them until they decayed and fell apart. 

Yes, the wording leads me to believe that it's the rose petals that are black.  You might find this interesting from google:

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Frost. More often than not, this condition is caused by either Jack Frost kissing the rose blooms early or late in the season. ... There is no way for the rose bush, on its own, to move enough moisture to those extreme petal edges to stop the freeze burn effects, thus resulting in edges of rose petals turning black.Sep 14, 2016

I don't recall though, was this part of Ned's dream or a waking memory.   This doesn't say anything about where she died; but possibly when she died.

[Melifeather]

The symbolic nature of Egg being held in a sept in Stoney Sept, and Robert hiding out in a brothel (the Peach) in Stoney Sept, seems to indicate that we could view Egg as being "the kingship" that is about to be birthed, and Robert "prostituted" himself out to The Bloody Hand (Tywin). Robert is the dragon egg about to hatch and take the throne. Lyanna's disappearance sparked the rebellion, and her death was the sacrifice that was needed to hatch this dragon. 

The Mercy chapter also mentions that the play, The Bloody Hand, offered a choice between two kings:

Quote

The Bloody Hand offered two kings, the fat one and the boy. Izembaro would play the fat one. It was not a large part, but he had a fine speech as he lay dying, and a splendid fight with a demonic boar before that. Phario Forel had written it, and he had the bloodiest quill of all of Braavos.

The passage above describes the two kings as "the fat one" (Robert) and "the boy" (Rhaegar is Aerys's boy). Izembaro plays the fat one, and we know it's Robert, because the play has the fat king killed by a "demonic boar", and then gives a splendid deathbed speech. 

[Melifeather]

Hey! Oh boy, do I have a cracked pot wrapped in tinfoil for you! Or is this actually plausible?

I think the name of the author of the plays in the Mercy chapter, "Phario Forel", is meant to sound familiar. I think we're supposed to connect him to Syrio Forel and the story he told Arya about how he became the First Sword of Braavos: 

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"On the day I am speaking of, the first sword was newly dead, and the Sealord sent for me. Many bravos had come to him, and as many had been sent away, none could say why. When I came into his presence, he was seated, and in his lap was a fat yellow cat. He told me that one of his captains had brought the beast to him, from an island beyond the sunrise. 'Have you ever seen her like?' he asked of me.

"And to him I said, 'Each night in the alleys of Braavos I see a thousand like him,' and the Sealord laughed, and that day I was named the first sword."

Arya screwed up her face. "I don't understand."

Syrio clicked his teeth together. "The cat was an ordinary cat, no more. The others expected a fabulous beast, so that is what they saw. How large it was, they said. It was no larger than any other cat, only fat from indolence, for the Sealord fed it from his own table. What curious small ears, they said. Its ears had been chewed away in kitten fights. And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said 'her,' and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?"

Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there."

 

Now, in the Cat of Canals chapter I had determined that the Sealord was Ned. As Lord of Winterfell he is also the lord of the great northern "sea". (Patchface said that the north is underwater, which makes the Lord of Winterfell the Sealord)

What is particularly intriguing to me is how the Sealord convinced people that his male tomcat was a female by referring to it as "she". The others expected a "fabulous beast", and so that is what they saw. Doesn't this sound like Ned passed off a male corpse dressed as a woman and pretended it was "a cat"? "Cat" was Arya's name when she lived with Brusco, and "Cat" was Catelyn's nickname, and I also thought "Cat" was a mirror of Lyanna (and sometimes Petyr), but I'm fairly confident that Lyanna really did die, so I'm thinking that the story of the Sealord's Cat is about Ashara. If Ashara isn't really dead, then Ned needed a body to throw from the Palestone tower dressed in Ashara's clothing...OMG, do you think the corpse he used was none other than Lord Willem Dustin??? Is this why Ned never brought his body back? Is Lord Dustin buried in a grave marked as Ashara? It would make sense if he used Willem's body as a stand in for Ashara, it's not like he could bring the rest of his men back minus one, so they all had to remain "down south".

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Is this why Ned never brought his body back? Is Lord Dustin buried in a grave marked as Ashara? It would make sense that since he used Willem's body as a stand in for Ashara, it's not like he could bring the rest of his men back minus one, so they all had to remain "down south".

I think you completely lost it. Not only was Ashara's body never found, there is also no reason why Lord Dustin's body should be the double instead of any other body and there is also no reason why he cannot bring back the other bodies. 

You try to cover a hole in a wall by tearing down the wall. 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I think you completely lost it. Not only was Ashara's body never found, there is also no reason why Lord Dustin's body should be the double instead of any other body and there is also no reason why he cannot bring back the other bodies. 

You try to cover a hole in a wall by tearing down the wall. 

I don't recall it being mentioned that her body was never found...only that she's said to have jumped from the Palestone tower. It wouldn't have to be Lord Dustin's body - it could be any of Ned's dead friends, but if he had to leave one body behind, then he had to leave all of them.

[SirArthur]

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

I don't recall it being mentioned that her body was never found...only that she's said to have jumped from the Palestone tower. It wouldn't have to be Lord Dustin's body - it could be any of Ned's dead friends, but if he had to leave one body behind, then he had to leave all of them.

Good thing he has to use his friends in your scenario and not the members of the KG...

[Melifeather]

Just now, SirArthur said:

Good thing he has to use his friends in your scenario and not the members of the KG...

I think the fight with the Kingsguard was a separate event, and that they were guarding Elia and her children in Maegor's Holdfast. This is also hinted at when all of Ned's men are wraiths in the fever dream. Even Howland is a wraith when he's also said to have been with Ned when he rode away. I think this means that none of them were with him when he fought the Kingsguard, and if they were stationed separately along the way to the royal apartments, then it would be single combat for Ned all the way to Elia's door.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

How can there be any debate?  GRRM does not hide twists by poor wording.   If Lyanna's palm was dead and black, that would be extremely unusual and GRRM or editor would have realized the reader would think about the rose petals being dead and black.   The way it is worded now, a hundred people can read it without one noticing it could refer to a black palm.

If this were his intention, he would have written 

"rose petals spilling from her dead, black hand."

Note that the way it is worded now, only 1 palm, not even a whole hand, is dead and black. 

This still is an interesting passage.   Why would she be holding rose petals so far gone they turned black?  If she loved Rheagar, and he gave her the roses before he died, she may have wanted to hold them until they decayed and fell apart. 

GRRM is pretty good with words but this phrasing he uses in this sentence is odd. I think it'is purposefully meant to be unclear.

Quote

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

Grammatically, the dead and black should modify the word just before it, which is palm, not the rose petals. I think GRRM wrote the sentence the way he did to make it unclear about what the dead and black is actually modifying! I think it could easily modify Lyanna's palm, and I did for many years. But of course, that's a personal opinion, but this sentence has always seemed almost clumsy, and GRRM isn't really clumsy in text. Besides all that Dany shatting stuff!  The whole sentence is kind of odd, like Lyanna's fingers are supposedly clutching Ned's own fingers, yet her palm seems to also able to hold rose petals. So, did Ned and Lyanna have rose petals clutched between them, holding hands? Just rose petals, without a stem or pistil or stamen? 

Also, I don't think the rose petals are black, I think they are blue, but the light shining on them makes them appear black. The green and yellow glass filter, or a red filter, if the answer is a brothel. What color do dead blue rose petal's turn, anyway? Darker blue, I would think.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Mercy chapter also mentions that the play, The Bloody Hand, offered a choice between two kings:

Quote

The Bloody Hand offered two kings, the fat one and the boy. Izembaro would play the fat one. It was not a large part, but he had a fine speech as he lay dying, and a splendid fight with a demonic boar before that. Phario Forel had written it, and he had the bloodiest quill of all of Braavos.

The passage above describes the two kings as "the fat one" (Robert) and "the boy" (Rhaegar is Aerys's boy). Izembaro plays the fat one, and we know it's Robert, because the play has the fat king killed by a "demonic boar", and then gives a splendid deathbed speech. 

I guess I thought the "fat one" and "the boy" was a more obvious idea of Robert Baratheon and Joffrey Baratheon, the king that was and the king that became. If The Bloody Hand is about Ned being Hand and dying, then the kings that matter to his story are Robert and Joffrey.

If it does mean Robert and Rhaegar, I really doubt Rhaegar is the boy, as he was older than Robert during the rebellion, and Robert wasn't fat then, he was tall and muscled like a maiden's fantasy!

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ser Maynard Plumm is the one that told Dunk where to find Egg - in the sept in Stoney Sept. In the Mercy chapter, Bobono is supposed to rape Mercy on stage in a play titled, The Bloody Hand, which makes me wonder if Brown Ben Plumm raped or at least found Lyanna in the sept in Stoney Sept? Alternately, perhaps we're only to make the connection from Brown Ben Plumm to his relative, Maynard Plumm, because Maynard knew where Egg was - in the sept. Brown Ben then is just our clue that Lyanna was held and found in the sept in Stoney Sept.

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The symbolic nature of Egg being held in a sept in Stoney Sept, and Robert hiding out in a brothel (the Peach) in Stoney Sept, seems to indicate that we could view Egg as being "the kingship" that is about to be birthed, and Robert "prostituted" himself out to The Bloody Hand (Tywin). Robert is the dragon egg about to hatch and take the throne. Lyanna's disappearance sparked the rebellion, and her death was the sacrifice that was needed to hatch this dragon. 

I only read The Mystery Knight last night and so it's fresh in my mind. Egg was held in a sept but not at Stoney Sept, he was held in the sept of the castle of Whitewalls. 

But, Stoney Sept has ton's of brothel commentary, since Robert was rumored to have spend plenty of time in the brothel's of Stoney Sept, and Arya seems to be part of retracing these steps, so perhaps Lyanna did find herself in a brothel in Stoney Sept. She even spends a night in The Peach, where Bella, Robert's rumored bastard was born and works.

It is possible that the brothel that Robert was hiding was quite close to the sept that Jon Con almost was killed at, it doesn't really tell us how far Robert might have battled, but it sounds like he had free access to much of the town.

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Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand, and almost slew Jon on the steps of the old sept that gave the town its name. ADWD-The Griffin Reborn

 

[St Daga]

35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't recall it being mentioned that her body was never found...only that she's said to have jumped from the Palestone tower. It wouldn't have to be Lord Dustin's body - it could be any of Ned's dead friends, but if he had to leave one body behind, then he had to leave all of them.

It's discussed in an SSM, that Ashara's body was never found. That is one of the reasons so many people speculate that she could still be alive. No body, no proof of death. However, I guess if someone saw a body fall out a window of a tower, then any body would do! I don't know if there is any remains from Lysa's dive from the Moon Door, but I believe she is dead. Still, I am more inclined to think that Ashara's fall mirror's Lysa's fall, and that means that Ashara was pushed, she didn't jump! Did Ned push her? I really wonder but it's hard to imagine Ned in Litterfinger's role.

Still, Ned seems to have a pretty clear memory of the cairns he built for his companions, although he certainly doesn't list them by name. And it doesn't mean a body lies under each cairn. 

 

[Melifeather]

I was musing on a possible mirror for Lord Butterwell - you know, the lord that hosted the tourney where Egg was abducted. I'm thinking it might be Lord Walter Whent since he was the host of the Harrenhal tourney, which many believe was financed by Tywin Lannister. 

In the Mercy chapter Brusco had painted over the title of the "last show" and written The Bloody Hand in it's place. This is perhaps a change of loyalties, much like Walder Frey's revenge turn on Robb Stark. He also painted an image of a bloody hand with a crooked thumb. If Tywin is the Bloody Hand, who was his crooked thumb?

Quote

 

Beside the entrance, Big Brusco had painted over the title of the last show, and written The Bloody Hand in its place in huge red letters. He was
painting a bloody hand beneath the words, for those who could not read. Mercy stopped to have a look.

“That’s a nice hand,” she told him.

“Thumb’s crooked.” Brusco dabbed at it with his brush.

 

I was reviewing House Whent, Lord Walter Whent, and then saw a curious name...Ben Blackthumb, who was an old blacksmith of Lady Shella Whent, and who also joined Tywin Lannister's army when he left Harrenhal to serve as his blacksmith. Does this mean Ben Blackthumb was crooked, or is his name supposed to be a clue fingering (har!) Lord Walter Whent as being Tywin's crooked thumb?

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I guess I thought the "fat one" and "the boy" was a more obvious idea of Robert Baratheon and Joffrey Baratheon, the king that was and the king that became. If The Bloody Hand is about Ned being Hand and dying, then the kings that matter to his story are Robert and Joffrey.

If it does mean Robert and Rhaegar, I really doubt Rhaegar is the boy, as he was older than Robert during the rebellion, and Robert wasn't fat then, he was tall and muscled like a maiden's fantasy!

Yes, I see your points as also being true, but since the play is about treachery done by the bloody hand, and Tywin tricked Aerys into opening the gates, and how people didn't know which side of the rebellion he was actually on....I was going with Robert and Rhaegar. Robert was once a maiden's dream, but he did become fat. And once Tywin wanted young Rhaegar as a match for his daughter...so I'm not thinking it's a literal interpretation.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I only read The Mystery Knight last night and so it's fresh in my mind. Egg was held in a sept but not at Stoney Sept, he was held in the sept of the castle of Whitewalls. 

Thank you for correcting me. Stoney Sept kept coming up when I was searching the Hedge Knight and I got sloppy. But you've got me very interested in Whitewalls - mostly due to it's location. From the wiki:

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Whitewalls, nicknamed the Milkhouse, was the second castle of House Butterwell. Its location on maps has not yet been published, but it was located in the riverlands. The castle was built near the Gods Eye, with the Butterwell lands on the eastern shore of the lake. Whitewalls was closer to Maidenpool than to King's Landing.

This is very interesting, because of what Mercy sees as she's leaving her room on the way to go to the play:

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“Mercy, Mercy, Mercy,” she sang as she descended the wooden stair to the street. The handrail was splintery, the steps steep, and there were five flights, but that was why she’d gotten the room so cheap. That, and Mercy’s smile. She might be bald and skinny, but Mercy had a pretty smile, and a certain grace. Even Izembaro agreed that she was graceful. She was not far from the Gate as the crows flies, but for girls with feet instead of wings the way was longer. Braavos was a crooked city. The streets were crooked, the alleys were crookeder, and the canals were crookedest of all. Most days she preferred to go the long way, down the Ragman’s Road along the Outer Harbor, where she had the sea before her and the sky above, and a clear view across the Great Lagoon to the Arsenal and the piney slopes of Sellagoro’s Shield. Sailors would hail her as she passed the docks, calling down from the decks of tarry Ibbenese whalers and big-bellied Westerosi cogs. Mercy could not always understand their words, but she knew what they were saying. Sometimes she would smile back and tell them they could find her at the Gate if they had the coin.

The long way also took her across the Bridge of Eyes with its carved stone faces. From the top of its span, she could look through the arches and see all the city: the green copper domes of the Hall of Truth, the masts rising like a forest from the Purple Harbor, the tall towers of the mighty, the golden thunderbolt turning on its spire atop the Sealord’s Palace…even the Titan’s bronze shoulders, off across the dark green waters. But that was only when the sun was shining down on Braavos. If the fog was thick there was nothing to see but grey, so today Mercy chose the shorter route to save some wear on her poor cracked boots.

 

Mercy can see the "green copper domes of the Hall of Truth", which are mirrors to the weirwood trees on the Isle of Faces. The Purple Harbor is a mirror to the God's Eye lake itself. 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

It's discussed in an SSM, that Ashara's body was never found. That is one of the reasons so many people speculate that she could still be alive. No body, no proof of death. However, I guess if someone saw a body fall out a window of a tower, then any body would do! I don't know if there is any remains from Lysa's dive from the Moon Door, but I believe she is dead. Still, I am more inclined to think that Ashara's fall mirror's Lysa's fall, and that means that Ashara was pushed, she didn't jump! Did Ned push her? I really wonder but it's hard to imagine Ned in Litterfinger's role.

Still, Ned seems to have a pretty clear memory of the cairns he built for his companions, although he certainly doesn't list them by name. And it doesn't mean a body lies under each cairn. 

Good points, and I like the reasoning. If Ned did dress a corpse in a dress and pushed it from the tower, people would only see a woman's dress and make assumptions. It would be a lot easier this way to conceal a man in a woman's dress if the body were lost into the sea.

I'm glad you brought up Lysa and her attempt to push Sansa out the Moon Door, because I think Sansa is a mirror to Ashara. The intention to push Sansa, but having Lysa fall instead confirms the swap.

 

[Melifeather]

Oh, here's something else interesting from the wiki regarding Dunk and Egg's route to attend the wedding at Whitewalls:

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While journeying from Stoney Sept to the kingsroad, Ser Duncan the Tall and Prince Aegon Targaryen took Ned's ferry across the Gods Eye to attend the festivities.

So, the route Dunk and Egg took from Stoney Sept...they had to take Ned's ferry across the God's Eye to get to Whitewalls. If this is a prior repeat to Ned's route after the Battle of the Bells, how did he know to stop at Whitewalls? I had noticed that there appeared to be an unexplained gap between the Battle of Stoney Sept and the Trident, and also the perceived retreat on the part of the rebel forces. If you look at where Stoney Sept is and then look at the Trident - why did the rebel forces retreat north like that? There's no need to take this particular route to get to the Ruby Ford of the Trident from Stoney Sept - you could just march north over land - so if Ned did indeed take a ferry across the God's Eye, then he had some intelligence that told him where to find Lyanna, which now appears to be Whitewalls.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

GRRM is pretty good with words but this phrasing he uses in this sentence is odd. I think it'is purposefully meant to be unclear.

Grammatically, the dead and black should modify the word just before it, which is palm, not the rose petals. I think GRRM wrote the sentence the way he did to make it unclear about what the dead and black is actually modifying! I think it could easily modify Lyanna's palm, and I did for many years. But of course, that's a personal opinion, but this sentence has always seemed almost clumsy, and GRRM isn't really clumsy in text. Besides all that Dany shatting stuff!  The whole sentence is kind of odd, like Lyanna's fingers are supposedly clutching Ned's own fingers, yet her palm seems to also able to hold rose petals. So, did Ned and Lyanna have rose petals clutched between them, holding hands? Just rose petals, without a stem or pistil or stamen? 

Also, I don't think the rose petals are black, I think they are blue, but the light shining on them makes them appear black. The green and yellow glass filter, or a red filter, if the answer is a brothel. What color do dead blue rose petal's turn, anyway? Darker blue, I would think.

I believe it was a Time magazine article titled "Scientists study whales from space".  This was discussed in language theory because grammatically, it appears the whales are extraterrestrials.  However readers were not confused, nor did the editor see a problem with this title, as we all have enough background information to know the article is about whales from Earth being observed by satellite.

Lyanna's palm being either dead or black is just plain silly, and I am surprised anyone even picked up on the slightly clumsy wording.

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I believe it was a Time magazine article titled "Scientists study whales from space".  This was discussed in language theory because grammatically, it appears the whales are extraterrestrials.  However readers were not confused, nor did the editor see a problem with this title, as we all have enough background information to know the article is about whales from Earth being observed by satellite.

Lyanna's palm being either dead or black is just plain silly, and I am surprised anyone even picked up on the slightly clumsy wording.

Well if the rose turned black because of frost; then it's also possible her hands were frostbitten causing the fingers to be black.  But I'm still of a mind that the rose petals were dead and black.  This suggests that Lyanna died sometime late winter or early spring.