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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

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On 3/25/2019 at 9:35 PM, Springwatch said:

Yes, or at least more likely than not.

The eyes aren't an issue for me. We don't really know if purple eyes are anything remarkable in Essos. The people of Lys have them, and that's a whole city state.

Besides - grrm is not careless with the facts, he's carefree. If he thinks Lemore should have rainbow eyes that no-one actually notices, that's what she'll have.

Purple eyes are a big deal in Essos too, though. It signifies valyrian descent.

Lys has the highest occurrence but Lys sits non an island separate from Essos; so sure there'd be travellers but they tend to be noticed, like Salladhor Saan and the Lyseni pirates from Hardhome, noticed both on the Wall and in Braavos, or sample chapter WoW:

Spoiler

Lysono Marr who makes quite the impression on Arianne. 

Also in Volantis the blood of old Valyria lives behind a black wall.

 

Giving Ashara haunting purple eyes and most beautiful woman in Westeros and then claiming she is actually a handsome septa with unremarkable eyes seems on the carefree side of your scale, to me.

I don't think GRRM is carefree with facts at all - him taking on Linda and Elio speaks very strongly for him wanting stuff to be as correct as he can get them. 

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5 hours ago, corbon said:

This is misleading though.
Earlier (Tyrion IV) Tyrion has already decided he has no interest in Lemore. 

Later he briefly wonders more about her. This is Tyrion XI.

Thats literally the first time Tyrion actually displays any interest in Lemore beyond her body, and lasts only a minute or so. After Tyrion notices her change of garb, it makes Tyrion think more about her. Haldon also notices the change and comments, so we know Tyrion's only just watching her closely for a moment, having just now realised she might have something of interest she's hiding, she makes the remark YG not being the only one with things to hide, then Tyrion's off distracting YG with Cyvasse. Its literally a minute or less and we never see Tyrion and Lemore together again.

Misleading how? A visual observation does not need a prolonged period of time, a minute is more than sufficient.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

As a youthful beauty at court, at literally the greatest party in a generation for a whole continent, when she was all dolled up, in a Targaryen court (so purple eyes are very much a thing), Ashara Dayne had either laughing or haunting purple eyes. But the truth of purple eyes is that they mostly don't actually look purple. Even less so when you are deliberately not trying to bring the colour out. And the truth of people is that dolled up girls having fun at a huge party have far more noticeable eyes (and really, what else are you going to say about a pretty young noblewoman - that she has the most exquisite chiseled nose?) than even an attractive middle aged woman who is un-dolled up. 

 

This whole "Ashara's eyes are soooo amazing its impossible that 20 years later when she's trying to hide her identity they don't immediately attract notice" idea is entirely unreasonable.

I think you're conflating the present debate with the past ones (yeah, I remember those, even that bit about a girl who had wonderful eyes on one occasion and plain on another). Currently, it's purely the colour that is being discussed, not the impression. Eye colour purple in GRRMth is perceived as dark blue (YG, Egg, Ned Dayne) or black (Egg, Darkstar). It is subdued by blue colour of clothes or hair, and enhanced by purple clothes. If GRRM didn't want to be too explicit by stating purple, he could have mentioned Lemore having dark eyes, and only later have e.g. JonCon make a comment similar to Arianne, that you need to look closer to see the eyes are actually purple.

- Hm. What I don't recall is if we debated what JonCon would think about the presence of a purple-eyed woman when bringing up a purple-eyed boy. Would he considered it an advantage, a drawback, or not be concerned at all? 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

It was only for a moment. It is likely her eyes didn't actually look purple at that time. Nor is it likely he studied her physically, looked deeper into her eyes than before or anything. Its just a phrase that shows that he actually thought about her for a change, instead of metaphorically drooling.

He watched her closely. That doesn't rule out observation of physical features. Especially for a guy who has actually figured someone out based on eye colour.

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4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GRRM is certainly free to tell his story how he wishes to, but I will be highly disappointed if it turns out that Lemore has Ashara's purple eyes and he had Tyrion's POV fail to observe this. No matter the reason, I would find that to be the most extremely poor case of writing in the series, and not wanting people to jump to the conclusion that it was Ashara would be the worst possible reason for him to have withheld that information from Tyrion's POV.

You and me both. Especially as GRRM is clever with giving small hints, and it is unlike him to leave them out this time.

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On 3/26/2019 at 2:40 PM, Ygrain said:

I doubt he would have figured Ashara out, but the line of thought about her purple eyes should have been present, if that was the case. A middle-aged woman with stretchmarks or her belly, is travelling in a peculiar company with a boy of about sixteen who is masking himself. If there were similarities between the two, such as eye colour, an inquisitive mind should start wondering if the woman might be the boy's mother. Yet, no such thought ever occurs

Ashara's eyes were violet. Aegon's eyes are a dark blue, black in lamplight, seemingly purple at dusk. Not really the same.

There's not much reason to believe that Aegon is Lemore's son, so a likeness is not to be expected (and if there was, Lemore would have to go, because nothing must confuse the narrative of Aegon being Elia's son).

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But Lemore is from Westeros, not Essos, so for her, purple eyes would be highly unusual.

Would they? Westerosi Septa is a job title, it doesn't say anything about her ancestry. And I still don't know how rare purple shades are in Essos or even Westeros. People aren't startled by meeting someone with purple eyes. In fact, people are more likely to think Lyseni whore than the blood of Old Valyria, or drop of dragon blood. It's certainly not enough to trigger the thought, ah, probably a Dayne.

Tyrion is wise enough to know he hasn't enough evidence to make an informed guess at Lemore's identity. More than that, he switches off, he refuses to think, to observe. He's being shallow here - she's very sexy, and she appears to be of low status in the team. That's all he needs to know.

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Nonsense. If her eye colour was somehow prominent, even a plotpoint, he needs to make someone notice. Introducing notable eyes a book later makes about as much sense as claiming that Lemore had been walking around with a duck on her head the whole time but no-one ever commented on it.

 

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

<snip>

I don't think GRRM is carefree with facts at all - him taking on Linda and Elio speaks very strongly for him wanting stuff to be as correct as he can get them. 

Consider Strong Belwas:

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... "I am Belwas. Strong Belwas they name me in the fighting pits of Meereen. Never did I lose." He slapped his belly, covered with scars. "I let each man cut me once, before I kill him. Count the cuts and you will know how many Strong Belwas has slain."

Dany had no need to count the scars; there were many, she could see at a glance.

[ACOK - DAENERYS V]

The above is what I mean by carefree. Until I learn better, I put Belwas' chance of death at 95% per bout. And yet he lives. None of the skilled fighters around him has ever commented on it.

It's tosh, basically. No-one has served me such tripe since I was six.

After much heart-searching, I've decided to put my trust in the author; believing he's a clever, creative writer who for some obscure reason has chosen to write in this style. The books are full of it. I'm not going to choke over Lemore's unknown eye colour.

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48 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Consider Strong Belwas:

The above is what I mean by carefree. Until I learn better, I put Belwas' chance of death at 95% per bout. And yet he lives. None of the skilled fighters around him has ever commented on it.

Ive wondered that a few times. Its one thing in the fighting rings (still ridiculous) but Belwas fought in battels. Yunaki and Merreen. And he was part of the elite commando group in Merreen, so he let each man cut him once in battle too? 

 

Back to the eyes, and why Tyrion should have noticed them, like he noticed Ducks eyes, or Yandry and Ysillas eyes.

It takes about half the Mystery Knight for Dunk to realize the Fiddlers eye color.

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"Your dreams don't lie," said Dunk, "but you do. John is not your true name, is it?"

"No." The Fiddler's eyes sparkled with mischief.

He has Egg's eyes.

And Tyrion may have spent a large amount of time with Aegon the VI but not as much as Dunk with Aegon the V

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8 hours ago, lalt said:

In all seriusness, however, I believe there are pretty good chances (50%) that young Griff is a blackfire.

But, the other 50% for me is young Griff as Ashara and Brandon son. And therefore Ashara=Lemor

For the poll, are you willing to go 51% one way or the other?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Misleading how? A visual observation does not need a prolonged period of time, a minute is more than sufficient.

Misleading because the way it was stated infers he had all the time in the world to study her closely. In fact, the scene was very short, and its only this short time that Tyrion suddenly realizes she might have secrets worth knowing and starts to take her more seriously. Then he's gone.
And even during that short time, less than a minute, although he's suddenly aware she might be more interesting than he realised, and he 'studies her closely', he's still involved in the short conversation (making a dirty quip in response to Haldon's mention of her change of garb, and then he's off distracting YG (whom he's also been simultaneously observing well enough to tell us his unspoken moods). 

In short, 'studied her closely' is more an expression of a change in general interest and more 'looking afresh' rather than a deep study, and then they part, never to be seen together on screen again.

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I think you're conflating the present debate with the past ones (yeah, I remember those, even that bit about a girl who had wonderful eyes on one occasion and plain on another). Currently, it's purely the colour that is being discussed, not the impression. Eye colour purple in GRRMth is perceived as dark blue (YG, Egg, Ned Dayne) or black (Egg, Darkstar). It is subdued by blue colour of clothes or hair, and enhanced by purple clothes. If GRRM didn't want to be too explicit by stating purple, he could have mentioned Lemore having dark eyes, and only later have e.g. JonCon make a comment similar to Arianne, that you need to look closer to see the eyes are actually purple.

Why must he be explicit at all? Tyrion was never interested in figuring out who she was. For whatever reason, GRRM didn't give us her eye colour. Thats a simple fact. Its also a simple fact that unless Tyrion actually noticed her eyes were purple when he wasn't caring, and purple eyes don't usually look purple unless its deliberately brought out, then her eyes were never important to him.
I mean, look, here, the most famous purple eyes in human history. But all I see is blue, and the left (her right) is maybe even more slate grey than blue. Not a hint of purple that I can tell. Do I have some weird certain-shades-of-purple colour blindness?

Image result for violet eyes (well, that didn't work... so here's a link)

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- Hm. What I don't recall is if we debated what JonCon would think about the presence of a purple-eyed woman when bringing up a purple-eyed boy. Would he considered it an advantage, a drawback, or not be concerned at all? 

He's not bringing up a purple eyed boy, he's bringing up his own blue-eyed son. So its not really relevant, all the more so that if Lemore's eyes are actually violet, its not very noticeable.

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He watched her closely. That doesn't rule out observation of physical features. Especially for a guy who has actually figured someone out based on eye colour.

Indeed. But its only a momentary thing, as much or more psychological than physical, and if the light wasn't right at that time her eyes may not have seemed purple.

 

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ashara's eyes were violet.

 

Edited by corbon

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Springwatch said:
Quote

... "I am Belwas. Strong Belwas they name me in the fighting pits of Meereen. Never did I lose." He slapped his belly, covered with scars. "I let each man cut me once, before I kill him. Count the cuts and you will know how many Strong Belwas has slain."

Dany had no need to count the scars; there were many, she could see at a glance.

[ACOK - DAENERYS V]

The above is what I mean by carefree. Until I learn better, I put Belwas' chance of death at 95% per bout. And yet he lives. None of the skilled fighters around him has ever commented on it.

It's tosh, basically. No-one has served me such tripe since I was six.

After much heart-searching, I've decided to put my trust in the author; believing he's a clever, creative writer who for some obscure reason has chosen to write in this style. The books are full of it. I'm not going to choke over Lemore's unknown eye colour.

That's not GRRM but Belwas being carefree with facts - which is in line with the character (bombastic and caricature-like as he is).

edit: Belwas isn't a favourite of mine either, I keep having to remind myself he isn't the genie from Aladdin.

Edited by Sigella

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13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

And I still don't know how rare purple shades are in Essos or even Westeros.

A discussion of Valyrian prevalence in Planetos:

 

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17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

For the poll, are you willing to go 51% one way or the other?

My bet on Ashara = Lemor.

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On 3/28/2019 at 10:11 AM, Sigella said:

That's not GRRM but Belwas being carefree with facts - which is in line with the character (bombastic and caricature-like as he is).

The only possible solution with realism, but still has problems because most injuries happen in the fighting pits under the eyes of many fans; and Belwas did achieve such a cut at least once, outside Meereen.

On 3/28/2019 at 10:11 AM, Sigella said:

edit: Belwas isn't a favourite of mine either, I keep having to remind myself he isn't the genie from Aladdin.

That's it! :D.  But I feel I've been a bit unfair to the writing of Belwas.

He does fit in with the word-play layer (bellicosity; having the belly for a fight (Sandor & others); Battle of the Bells....)

I think what he's got is a touch of the superheroes. The convention I've learned is that a character is either definitely a superhero, or definitely not; a convention that gets broken here: Belwas falls into the uncanny valley of being just a bit superhero, and no more. Also Barristan (too good for his age); Loras (too good for his age/build); Tyrion (too athletic for his physique)....

Anyway, Belwas is worth bringing up because he demonstrates that weird things can pass without comment, even by people who are looking critically (e.g. Dany and Jorah, in this case).

And if there is weirdness about eyes, that can't be proved directly, because we're in the realm of some things are mistakes, and some things are intentional, but look like mistakes. Several characters have their eyes described differently at different times - could be intentional, could be a mistake; there's no way of telling at this stage. (An official nudge would be nice....)

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:39 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I doubt he never bothered looking at her eyes since he looked at her face to be able to describe her as a handsome woman. Tyrion spent time with the woman while she was dressed. 

Thank you.  

Out of curiosity, do you commit to your own "Elia Martell = Septa Lemore" theory?

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4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Thank you.  

Out of curiosity, do you commit to your own "Elia Martell = Septa Lemore" theory?

 I do, but I also know it's a speculation based on very flimsy "proof." It also stems from the belief that Aegon is very much the real deal.

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No, I believe this for a while but Lemore is in her fourties while Ashara would be in her thirties, most likely thirty three, but I have no candidate about Lemore. I would say Malora being Lemore might make sense but her younger sisters Alerie and Lynesse has Targaryen-ish features so I am not sure. I don't believe Serra Mopatis ever existed if she did Tyrion will recognize her as he saw her picture, and hands are the first thing you lost to grey scale there is no way Illyrio kept them.

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On 5/28/2019 at 11:28 AM, Jova Snow said:

No, I believe this for a while but Lemore is in her fourties while Ashara would be in her thirties, most likely thirty three, but I have no candidate about Lemore. I would say Malora being Lemore might make sense but her younger sisters Alerie and Lynesse has Targaryen-ish features so I am not sure. I don't believe Serra Mopatis ever existed if she did Tyrion will recognize her as he saw her picture, and hands are the first thing you lost to grey scale there is no way Illyrio kept them.

Ashara would likely be in her late thirties at least. She was a companion to Elia, probably older than Ned.

Lemore is estimated to be in her forties by Tyrion.
Thats a man estimating a middle-aged woman's age.
A man who usually hangs out with prostitutes and noblewoman estimating the age of someone who has been living a different sort of life.
A man who has a bad record of estimating ages (Jon and fAegon).

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2 hours ago, corbon said:

Ashara would likely be in her late thirties at least.

That should be "late 30s at most".  That's generally how a fair-minded person would interpret GRRM's phrase "in her 30s".

2 hours ago, corbon said:

She was a companion to Elia, probably older than Ned.

So a teenager year old can rule a kingdom without a regent; lead an army in times of war; become Commander of the Nights Watch; and serve on the Kingsguard.  But a teenager cannot serve as a Lady in Waiting?  News to me.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Lemore is estimated to be in her forties by Tyrion.

Well then, perhaps she is in her fifties.

I agree that the clues GRRM has given us could be wrong.  But if we disregard the only clues we have, are we really following the evidence?

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2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

So a teenager year old can rule a kingdom without a regent; lead an army in times of war; become Commander of the Nights Watch; and serve on the Kingsguard.  But a teenager cannot serve as a Lady in Waiting?  News to me.

Sure, they can. 
But a sickly woman in a dangerous court with small children is more likely to choose companions that will help and be trustworthy, a bit more mature.

Add to that, Ashara at Harrenhal was dancing and hanging out with older men - Connington, Brandon Stark, Oberyn Martell and probably her brother Arthur, and clearly intimidates 18 year old Ned who is so shy he won't leave the benches until Brandon got her to dance with him (ask him to dance?).

Nothing conclusive, but everything we know points towards her being older rather than younger.

Note that the same SSM that places Ashara in her thirties places Howland Reed in his thirties:
 

6) How old is Howland Reed?

He'd be in his thirties.

7) And how would have been Ashara Dayne?

Ditto.

and we know HR would be at least 37-38 currently (based on him having attained manhood (16) before he travelled to the Isle of Faces, then staying there a full winter (2yrs long according to other TWoIaF) before leaving and finding the Harrenhal tourney).

2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well then, perhaps she is in her fifties.

Its possible. Tyrion must be developing the thing for older women all of a sudden.

2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I agree that the clues GRRM has given us could be wrong.  But if we disregard the only clues we have, are we really following the evidence?

Following the clues gives us late 30s as most likely. Nothing at all points to her being younger except the possible limitations of "30s".

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sure, they can. 
But a sickly woman in a dangerous court with small children is more likely to choose companions that will help and be trustworthy, a bit more mature.

So, the grizzled veterans of the Nights Watch don't care about maturity when they elect a commander; and King and Court do not care about maturity when choose a warrior sworn to defend the life of a the King and his family.  But somehow, a sickly woman's companion cannot be a few years younger?  I don't get it. 

It's not as though a Royal Princess cannot have as many servants and companions as she likes.  If one lacks maturity, another can supply the defect.

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Add to that, Ashara at Harrenhal was dancing and hanging out with older men - Connington, Brandon Stark, Oberyn Martell and probably her brother Arthur, and clearly intimidates 18 year old Ned who is so shy he won't leave the benches until Brandon got her to dance with him (ask him to dance?).

None of this rules out Ashara being a teenager.  

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Nothing conclusive, but everything we know points towards her being older rather than younger.

Then how come you can't come up with anything but non-sequiturs?

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Note that the same SSM that places Ashara in her thirties places Howland Reed in his thirties:
 

6) How old is Howland Reed?

He'd be in his thirties.

7) And how would have been Ashara Dayne?

Ditto.

and we know HR would be at least 37-38 currently (based on him having attained manhood (16) before he travelled to the Isle of Faces, then staying there a full winter (2yrs long according to other TWoIaF) before leaving and finding the Harrenhal tourney).

No problem here whatsoever.  GRRM said "in his 30s".  That potentially includes late thirties, as well as early 30s.   The difference is, in HR's case additional evidence narrows it down to "late 30s".  In Ashara's case, you have nothing, so you're grasping at non-sequiturs like this one.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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