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UK Politics: Awaiting MV3

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On 5/6/2019 at 12:56 PM, Heartofice said:

Not really.

Well, both movements harness deep instincts of xenophobia with a goal of protecting the local elite from oversight.

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6 minutes ago, Seli said:

Well, both movements harness deep instincts of xenophobia with a goal of protecting the local elite from oversight.

Which local elite are you referring to? 

One of the goals of Brexit is removing ourselves from an institution that lacks oversight, so pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Which local elite are you referring to? 

One of the goals of Brexit is removing ourselves from an institution that lacks oversight, so pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.

The goal of Brexit seems to be to remove the UK from the oversight of EU regulations (such as those against tax avoidance), hell the whole reason Corbyn seems to want Brexit is to be able to nationalize things again without EU regulations intervening. And of course there is the whole sentiment against the European Human Rights Court, which tends to run with the same people who are for leaving the EU. They seem allergic to having judges they can't control point out UK citizens and citizens in the UK actually have rights.

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Posted (edited)

That what party are you thing told me I was a Liberal Democrat!!! And I bashed migrants and everything. 

71% Liberal Democrat

70% Change

68% Plaid (what the hell)

66% Conservative

65% Labour

It was a bit useless though as it also told me I was 59% Sinn Fein. I was least like the SDLP. To be fair I have been giving some thought to voting liberal at the euros ...

edit: interesting, if I turn off the weighting though I come out as DUP ...

Edited by Nothing Has Changed

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18 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah it’s funny how that story is framed.  The guy was rebuked for calling someone a Nazi, yet it’s written as if he’s the Nazi himself. Standard Guardian journalism.

( not that the guy in question seem particularly nice but it’s a good indication of the press strategy here)

 

16 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I’m not defending anyone, I’m highlighting the Guardians rather obvious agenda with its reporting and sly way of wording things. 

 

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Its perfectly possible that I am not supporting or defending anyone from Brexit party or UKIP whilst also noticing that the Guardian , like most news outlets ,is often quite a biased website that has no problem using misleading headlines to tell stories.

Except of course you seem to be wrong. The headline aligns with the article, and makes no reference to “The guy was rebuked for calling someone a Nazi”. It says he congratulated and supported a UKIO member who had just been ejected from the EU parliament for using Nazi slogans. So it appears you’re mischaracterising their article. 

As to the idea this is being run because the MSM is scared, does that mean you don’t think we should be told when politicians or candidates have declared support for people using nazi slogans?

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2 hours ago, ants said:

 

 

Except of course you seem to be wrong. The headline aligns with the article, and makes no reference to “The guy was rebuked for calling someone a Nazi”. It says he congratulated and supported a UKIO member who had just been ejected from the EU parliament for using Nazi slogans. So it appears you’re mischaracterising their article. 

As to the idea this is being run because the MSM is scared, does that mean you don’t think we should be told when politicians or candidates have declared support for people using nazi slogans?

Not really, he was ejected for using nazi slogans as a way of describing someone else as a Nazi. Bad taste for sure but not the same as being a Nazi yourself, which is how the Guardian is happy to frame the situation. It’s unsurprising  that people are happy to throw around accusations of racism or being a Nazi with the MSM has little problem in doing the same.

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Quote

In November 2010, he praised Godfrey Bloom, then a Ukip MEP, on the day he was ejected from the European parliament for directing a Nazi slogan at a German colleague, writing online: “Godfrey Bloom you are a legend! Say no more.”

Quote

Godfrey Bloom said "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer" - one people, one empire, one leader - as Martin Schulz was making a speech.

He was ordered out of the chamber and will face disciplinary measures.

Mr Bloom told the BBC he stood by his words, describing the leader of the socialist group in the parliament, as "a national socialist".

Mr Bloom made the heckle as Mr Schulz, a member of Germany's Social Democratic Party and leader of the socialist bloc in the Parliament, was speaking during a debate on the economic crisis in the Irish Republic.

First quote box is the Guardian, it seems a sparse description of what happened but not misleading. He's an Englishman using a Nazi slogan in German to try silence a German socialist speaking about nothing related to German nationalism. Due to its disconnection from anything that was being said its clearly just trying to be inflammatory and offensive. Hence "directing a Nazi slogan at a German colleague". Even the headline isn't saying what you're trying to claim:

Quote

Brexit party MEP candidate praised use of Nazi slogan

You need to read the article to get the context of what happened but its factually correct which isn't the worst crime I've seen a headline commit.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Not really, he was ejected for using nazi slogans as a way of describing someone else as a Nazi. Bad taste for sure but not the same as being a Nazi yourself, which is how the Guardian is happy to frame the situation. It’s unsurprising  that people are happy to throw around accusations of racism or being a Nazi with the MSM has little problem in doing the same.

Of course, the UKIP member describing a German as a Nazi was Godfrey Bloom. That would be Godfrey Bloom, he who said that foreign aid should not be sent to 'Bongo Bongo Land', stood by his remarks, and said that he saw nothing racist in them: who proposed that the unemployed and public sector workers should be banned from voting: who applauded the Rainbow Warrior bombing: who described Goldman Sachs as an 'international Jewish bank' and who has a long, long history of remarks disparaging equal rights for women. 

Now, if you feel that Godfrey Bloom is being unfairly traduced as a Nazi, that's your hill to die on. It's a choice. Yes, the media sometimes distort things but the decisions we make about when to complain about that can fairly be interrogated. 

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3 hours ago, mormont said:

Of course, the UKIP member describing a German as a Nazi was Godfrey Bloom. That would be Godfrey Bloom, he who said that foreign aid should not be sent to 'Bongo Bongo Land', stood by his remarks, and said that he saw nothing racist in them: who proposed that the unemployed and public sector workers should be banned from voting: who applauded the Rainbow Warrior bombing: who described Goldman Sachs as an 'international Jewish bank' and who has a long, long history of remarks disparaging equal rights for women. 

Now, if you feel that Godfrey Bloom is being unfairly traduced as a Nazi, that's your hill to die on. It's a choice. Yes, the media sometimes distort things but the decisions we make about when to complain about that can fairly be interrogated. 

You haven't been reading very carefully. I haven't defended anyone. However Godfrey Bloom is a member of UKIP, or should i say WAS a member of UKIP. He is not a member of the Brexit party. 

This 'news' story is about something a member of The Brexit Party said 9 years ago on a facebook post in response to Bloom suggesting someone in the EU was acting a bit like the nazis did ( how many people on the left like to compare people to nazis these days?) 

And yet this is headline news, mainly of course because the Brexit Party is doing well and the Guardian has to try and pull something out if its pocket to discredit them, so playing headline word association with them is a great tactic. 
 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

You haven't been reading very carefully.

Nor have you, I think. 

I didn't say you had been defending Bloom: I said that you appeared to be complaining that he was being unfairly traduced. And you do. I didn't say Bloom was currently a member of UKIP, or of the Brexit party. He was at the time he used that phrase, though. (He later resigned after refusing to retract a description of women as 'sluts', I believe.) Bloom's use of the phrase was indeed intended to accuse the target of his remarks of acting like a Nazi, but this was on any objective analysis an entirely spurious accusation which was largely made because the person happened to be German. 

John Tennant made the post applauding Bloom nine years ago but has not since then retracted it, or given any indication that he regrets it or does not still stand by it. 

This is not headline news, except in the very technical sense that it was reported in a paper: it isn't making the front pages, though perhaps it should. And your decision to complain about media bias in this particular instance remains something on which people may make valid inferences. 

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20 minutes ago, mormont said:

This is not headline news, except in the very technical sense that it was reported in a paper: it isn't making the front pages, though perhaps it should. And your decision to complain about media bias in this particular instance remains something on which people may make valid inferences. 

It was a link posted up here as some sort of proof of.. something. Its also one of a number of stories I've seen on the Guardian in the past week using a similar tactic, with a clear strategy to create an association of the Brexit Party with.. I dunno.. Nazis or something. Clearly from some of the reactions and comments on here it's been working. I'm kind of sick of this kind of journalism, digging up every like and comment everyone has ever made online as a way of defaming them. The use of suggestive headlines is just as depressing.

I have no love for bigots like Bloom, but when you see the media make moves like this it is irritating. This is a really mild case of it, the Daily Mail and Telegraph do the same things of course. But then you have cases like New Statesmen and Roger Scruton which is another level of dishonest journalism. 

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I'm sorry, but you're all over the place here.

Bloom is a bigot. OK. We agree. But it's unfair to characterise the Brexit party as bigots by pointing out that one of their candidates supported his bigotry? Or is it that you think there's an important moral distinction between bigotry and Nazism that means one shouldn't call bigots Nazis? 

You're sick of and get irritated by journalists pointing out links between the Brexit party and bigotry. OK. Do you care at all about the fact that those links do actually exist? That many Brexit party candidates are, in fact, bigots? 

The Guardian aren't making stuff up here. They're doing journalism. Their 'strategy' here is to investigate and publish stories of legitimate public interest. Maybe it's 'working' because it's true?

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13 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm sorry, but you're all over the place here.

Bloom is a bigot. OK. We agree. But it's unfair to characterise the Brexit party as bigots by pointing out that one of their candidates supported his bigotry? Or is it that you think there's an important moral distinction between bigotry and Nazism that means one shouldn't call bigots Nazis? 

You're sick of and get irritated by journalists pointing out links between the Brexit party and bigotry. OK. Do you care at all about the fact that those links do actually exist? That many Brexit party candidates are, in fact, bigots? 

The Guardian aren't making stuff up here. They're doing journalism. Their 'strategy' here is to investigate and publish stories of legitimate public interest. Maybe it's 'working' because it's true?

Don't be sorry. I know you aren't.

My very clear point is that creating an association between a member of the Brexit party and 'being a nazi' was a very clear goal here. It has connetations of racism that suits the Guardian and fits its picture of Brexit overall (and yours obviously). 

'Brexit Party Candidate praised use of Nazi Slogan' could have been phrased a number of different ways, many of them would have been more accurate and closer to the spirit of what happened. 'Brexit party candidate supported slurs calling german party 'Nazis' would be more accurate, but do less to make you assume that he's supporting nazi language.
In fact the article doesn't really go into detail as to what happened with Bloom, it relies on you to link off to another site to get that info (which is too much work for most people as they well know). 

This is far from good journalism, Its just a cobbled together bunch of attacks. It carries little to no weight and most people will shrug their shoulders at almost everything written within it. Its only real effect will be to rile up regular Guardian readers and help them to confirm their own biases. 

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

My very clear point is that creating an association between a member of the Brexit party and 'being a nazi' was a very clear goal here.

Right. It is not an inaccurate association.

Let's put it this way: Bloom's use of a Nazi slogan was one way of making the accusation. It is not a way, I'd suggest, that most of us would use. Most of us would consider voicing a Nazi slogan in any context to be beyond the pale. That Bloom chose to voice a Nazi slogan in the European Parliament to make a bad faith accusation that someone else is a Nazi because they happen to be German, amounting to a slur, and that Tennant cheered him on, tells us quite a lot about the sort of people they are. Specifically, they are bigots: they are idiots: they are knowledgeable about Nazism and uncaring about anyone who would be upset by hearing that slogan, in any context.

But in all of this, the thing that really upsets you is that you think the headline was badly phrased.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, mormont said:

Let's put it this way: Bloom's use of a Nazi slogan was one way of making the accusation. It is not a way, I'd suggest, that most of us would use. Most of us would consider voicing a Nazi slogan in any context to be beyond the pale. That Bloom chose to voice a Nazi slogan in the European Parliament to make a bad faith accusation that someone else is a Nazi because they happen to be German, amounting to a slur, and that Tennant cheered him on, tells us quite a lot about the sort of people they are. Specifically, they are bigots: they are idiots: they are knowledgeable about Nazism and uncaring about anyone who would be upset by hearing that slogan, in any context.

Well it is inaccurate because being a stupid bigot isn’t the same as being a Nazi, and liking it when someone compares someone’s behaviour to being a Nazi is not the same as being racist. 

Implying that someone is a Nazi is pretty extreme , even if it seems to be a well worn out insult these days. 

But yeah I do care when I see so called reliable news sources using dishonest tactics, rather than to report the news, to try and change opinion. Obviously it wouldn’t bother anyone here because it’s against people you hate anyway. 

Edited by Heartofice

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On 7 May 2019 at 8:36 PM, Nothing Has Changed said:

That what party are you thing told me I was a Liberal Democrat!!! And I bashed migrants and everything. 

71% Liberal Democrat

70% Change

68% Plaid (what the hell)

66% Conservative

65% Labour

It was a bit useless though as it also told me I was 59% Sinn Fein. I was least like the SDLP. To be fair I have been giving some thought to voting liberal at the euros ...

edit: interesting, if I turn off the weighting though I come out as DUP ...

I've not yet decided whether I'll vote Conservative or Brexit Party.  I'll keep an eye on the polling.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well it is inaccurate because being a stupid bigot isn’t the same as being a Nazi, and liking it when someone compares someone’s behaviour to being a Nazi is not the same as being racist

And, of course, nobody has suggested anyone is a racist.

 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Implying that someone is a Nazi is pretty extreme , even if it seems to be a well worn out insult these days. 

Indeed we can all agree that Bloom is beyond the pale. Except Tennant clearly doesn't think so.

 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

But yeah I do care when I see so called reliable news sources using dishonest tactics, rather than to report the news, to try and change opinion. Obviously it wouldn’t bother anyone here because it’s against people you hate anyway.

This feels somewhat Trumpian. The Brexit media can and does put out all sorts of spin and fake news, and that is fine because they are not "reliable" and so no one takes them seriously (except of course that is not true, they have a massive impact). However it seems that the Remain supporting media is being held to an impossibly high standard of not only having to tell the exact truth, but also of having to be more than scrupulously fair. Pointing out the evidence of dubious attitudes and beliefs of politicians standing for election is beyond the pale. The general implication is that the slightest mote in the "reliable" media's eye implies that everything they say should be ignored.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Implying that someone is a Nazi is pretty extreme , even if it seems to be a well worn out insult these days. 

You labelled me extreme for not wanting to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people. 

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5 hours ago, mormont said:

Most of us would consider voicing a Nazi slogan in any context to be beyond the pale. That Bloom chose to voice a Nazi slogan in the European Parliament to make a bad faith accusation that someone else is a Nazi because they happen to be German, amounting to a slur, and that Tennant cheered him on, tells us quite a lot about the sort of people they are. Specifically, they are bigots: they are idiots: they are knowledgeable about Nazism and uncaring about anyone who would be upset by hearing that slogan, in any context.

Yup, when I'm calling someone a Nazi - which is sadly something that happens but because I'm being hyperbolic but because we are in the midst of a resurgence in literal open nazism - I just call them a Nazi. I wouldn't rattle off the 14 words to imply someone suggested them, I wouldn't say the phrase I refuse to even type that is being alluded to by the Nazi in my neighborhood with "VIII" behind each of his ears.

People that are appalled by Nazis don't think their slogans are harmless things that you can trot out as a rhetorical device.

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