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GeorgeIAF

Do we have concrete proof or confirmation ?

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17 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

That Jon really loves Dany or he manipulated her into thinking that he does, while he was just after her support in the war against the dead ?

It would really be bitter if he will reveal to her that he never loved her and only needed her help in the wars against NK and Cersei.

What would be concrete proof of love? Asking for a friend. 

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15 hours ago, btfu806 said:

He loves her, I don't think Jon Snow is a smart enough character to do anything that complicated.

Indeed :)

His an honorable dumb c&nt :D Just like his adopted dad.

'three fires must you light… one for life and one for death and one to love… three mounts must you ride… one to bed and one to dread and one to love… three treasons will you know… once for blood and once for gold and once for love…'

Seems to me pretty obvious, in hindsight, that Jon was always meant to be Dany's greatest love, break her heart and help drive her mad. Show is just not doing a good job of portraying it.

 

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22 minutes ago, darmody said:

What would be concrete proof of love? Asking for a friend. 

This is a good point - everyone loves their own way, right?

Jon obviously loves Dany because she agreed to help him with the undead. The two things are not mutually exclusive, in his case.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Wik said:

We know that much like his uncle, Jon has a very low (read non existent) talent for subterfuge and deception.  

You know, Ned wasn't a schemer. He was in the viper's den with men like Little Finger and the Spider, back when those characters made sense. He wasn't ready for the big leagues. 

What got him killed was wishing to spare Jaime and Cersei's bastard kids from death. It's not exactly the mistake of a fool, though the way he went about trying to help was stupid. 

Jon is presented as Ned-like because he's honest to the point of dumbassery. But this mistakes Ned's character.

Edited by darmody

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1 hour ago, LadyOlenna said:

I think that's it's weird that Varys considers odd a marriage between aunt and niece. Incest in Westeros (as it was in medieval Europe), is only between siblings or between parents and sons/daughters. So that shouldn't matter at all for Jon.

I was sure he loved Dany, but the scene in the bedroom was a bit weird. They were kissing but then he distanced himself. Is that because he finds disgusting kissing his aunt (sadly, D&D decided that in Westeros kissing an aunt is gross), or because he doesn't love her anymore?

 

No. Incest in this world also includes cousins, aunts, uncles and was not practiced as the norm. The norm was to marry different families to expand blood and alliances. Those characters that do in some way practice or push the incest boundaries are meant as warning signs that something wrong is in the works. Targs were the o my expecting because they had dragons. Even still, the Faith, families and smallfolk still revolted. 

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Twice in one episode Jon was referred to as being ‘of the north’, and one of those times being when Varys asked Tyrion if aunt/nephew marriage is normal in the north. It isn’t and that’s why Tyrion answers the way he does. 

Besides, even the showrunners say that Jon is bothered by his familial connections to Dany. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

I was sure he loved Dany, but the scene in the bedroom was a bit weird. They were kissing but then he distanced himself. Is that because he finds disgusting kissing his aunt

 

I understood the scene to be: "I want it to be like before Jon!"

And when he distanced himself, it indicated that it cannot be like before.

Kinda like Betty's audition in Mulholland Drive when after kissing they separate and realize the gravity of the situation.

Edited by Hoo

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No. Incest in this world also includes cousins, aunts, uncles and was not practiced as the norm. The norm was to marry different families to expand blood and alliances. Those characters that do in some way practice or push the incest boundaries are meant as warning signs that something wrong is in the works. Targs were the o my expecting because they had dragons. Even still, the Faith, families and smallfolk still revolted. 

Oh well, I didn't know that. It seemed to me that the fact Tywin married his cousin Joanna was perceived as normal. But then again... they did have a dwarf child. Thanks for your answer!

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

This episode made me certain that Varys has actively been looking for a way out of Team-Daenerys for quite some time, and that all his talk about "serving the realm" is pure bullshit. He's in it for himself, he wants power which requires a ruler he can influence and manipulate, and Daenerys is evidently not that ruler.
He also continuously tries to manipulate Tyrion, who's essentially being the 2nd-in-command,  but when he notices that Tyrion hesitates and won't move against his queen in the manner Varys wants, he essentially goes "I've said all I can" and leaves to start plotting Daenerys' downfall on his own.
He basically admitted to being addicted to power when he spoke with Melisandre last season, and he knows he will gain more power at this stage by "advising" Jon than Daenerys. And being a turn-cloak is basically his thing.

And Varys' reply to a potential Jon/Daenerys marriage fits his agenda:
Remember that Varys is the one who continuously shoots down the idea of a marriage between Jon and Daenerys: 
He did back in E1 when Davos brought it up, and he did now when Tyrion brought it up. 
He claims that Jon would be, if not repulsed, then at least reluctant to the idea of marrying his aunt - we know from this very episode that this isn't true.
He then claims that Daenerys would be "too strong for Jon" (which woman isn't at this point, really?) and bend him to her will - we know in hindsight that again, this isn't true. Jon has shown no qualms about defying Daenerys in the past, and has yet to show any signs of fear in her presence. Jon might be slightly pussy-whipped and honorbound to Daenerys (and has actually seen who she can be when she's at her best), but he has yet to follow her out of fear. 

And him talking about treason and having Daenerys assassinated a) before Cersei is even dealt with and b) before seeing Daenerys actually commit any atrocities, makes no god damn sense. 

Mmmm, that would make sense but I'm not sure that's the direction D&D chose. I think show Varys really is in for the people (since the show removed the  motivation he has in the books.)

He started to be concerned about Daenerys in season 7, and he actually saw that Jon is a bit weak when it comes to her. When Sansa suggested to let the troops rest and recover, I was expecting Jon to agree. But instead he agreed with Dany, probably to show her that he doesn't want to be the one who takes decisions, she's his queen and he's no threat to that. I didn't like Jon there... I'm sorry to say this, but the loss of Rhaegal and Missandei was Daenerys fault.

As for your last point, we can't be sure Varys wants Dany killed right now.

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2 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

Oh well, I didn't know that. It seemed to me that the fact Tywin married his cousin Joanna was perceived as normal. But then again... they did have a dwarf child. Thanks for your answer!

Ned’s parents were also cousins...

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7 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Ned’s parents were also cousins...

Second cousins once removed. Other bloodlines added in. That seems to be the threshold. 

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Twice in one episode Jon was referred to as being ‘of the north’, and one of those times being when Varys asked Tyrion if aunt/nephew marriage is normal in the north. It isn’t and that’s why Tyrion answers the way he does. 

Besides, even the showrunners say that Jon is bothered by his familial connections to Dany. 

 

Jonnel Stark married his niece Sansa Stark... :blink: Current Sansa and Current Jon are getting together. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jonnel Stark married his niece Sansa Stark... :blink: Current Sansa and Current Jon are getting together. 

No, That is not what that means. First off, I believe this Jonnel issue is only book canon info and not something ever brought up in the show. Please correct me if I am forgetting a scene where it is discussed.

Second, as far as book info goes, that Jonnel issue was an attempted power grab by the (most likely) Manderly's at the time. That's it. The two marriages never went anywhere, or never created children, and the incest relation was never practiced again. The plan died. This is a warning, not something to base a "ship" on... unless you want that ship to sink like the Titanic. Never, ever in any GRRM story that I have read where he does touch on incest in his magical-SciFi-medieval types worlds, never does it win. It always ends in a downfall of a dynasty, clan, power couple, whatever the scale may be. This isn't so much about copying reality of our time, but GRRM using a plot device the way he wants to.

And then we have both GRRM for the books as well as the showrunners explaining things like why marriages are arranged in Westeros (to strengthen clans and increase lands and loyalties) as well as telling us that Jon is put off by the aspect of his blood relationship to Daenerys.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Varys' character is one of the many ruined. Not only has he lost all of his smarts like so many others - I guess D&D forget who started the whole Targs back to throne thing (among many other things).

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2 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Varys' character is one of the many ruined. Not only has he lost all of his smarts like so many others - I guess D&D forget who started the whole Targs back to throne thing (among many other things).

Agreed. Varys has been a flip flop character for a while now... and Illyrio I guess just doesn't exist anymore :dunno: I get the rushed scenes to keep things moving, but they have ended up removing the logical progression of ideas and characters which in turn creates uneven plot structures.

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9 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

Oh well, I didn't know that. It seemed to me that the fact Tywin married his cousin Joanna was perceived as normal. But then again... they did have a dwarf child. Thanks for your answer!

There is a GRRM quote out there (I'll look in a little bit) where GRRM explains that what Tywin did was abnormal in this world. Tywin was a Targophile and just as obsessed with the purity of blood/elitism. People didn't push Tywin on the issue because he put the fear of the Reynes of Castamere into their minds, just as it is stated that the Targs got an 'exception' because they had dragons.

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16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, That is not what that means. First off, I believe this Jonnel issue is only book canon info and not something ever brought up in the show. Please correct me if I am forgetting a scene where it is discussed.

Second, as far as book info goes, that Jonnel issue was an attempted power grab by the (most likely) Manderly's at the time. That's it. The two marriages never went anywhere, or never created children, and the incest relation was never practiced again. The plan died. This is a warning, not something to base a "ship" on... unless you want that ship to sink like the Titanic. Never, ever in any GRRM story that I have read where he does touch on incest in his magical-SciFi-medieval types worlds, never does it win. It always ends in a downfall of a dynasty, clan, power couple, whatever the scale may be. This isn't so much about copying reality of our time, but GRRM using a plot device the way he wants to.

And then we have both GRRM for the books as well as the showrunners explaining things like why marriages are arranged in Westeros (to strengthen clans and increase lands and loyalties) as well as telling us that Jon is put off by the aspect of his blood relationship to Daenerys.

I am joking. 

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Just now, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I am joking. 

Ah, my fault :blushing:

In that case :cheers:

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45 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jonnel Stark married his niece Sansa Stark... :blink: Current Sansa and Current Jon are getting together. 

I posted in another thread but based more on books research than show, ,I feel like a VERY distinct possibility that Jon and Sansa end up together. 

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