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It would make all the difference in the world...

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, this is the primary issue for Daenerys in general, but for the concrete feast scene the primary issue is everyone loving, adoring, hailing Jon. Jon the resurrected. Jon the dragon rider. Jon the successful commander of the great War. Jon the wonderful boy. Jon the KING. They even say it.

Everyone wants Jon and no one of the Northerners there adore her or want her as queen. That's the primary issue of the scene.

Danny was Khaleesi and Mhysa, but Jon has a step up on her by having been installed as King in the North (for reasons still unknown) by Westerosi. At most, Danny has had several houses back her. She's an outsider. 

Edited by darmody

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4 minutes ago, darmody said:

Yes. It would be good for companionship and security. But Barry was never a strategist or political player, was he? He couldn't do anything about Aerys' murder. He couldn't save Robert from Cersei. He did nothing to help Ned. He allowed himself to be pushed aside as soon as Joffrey was in power. 

Barristan Selmy was more than qualified as a military commander "He couldn't do anything about Aerys murder" He was mortally wounded fighting alongside Rhaegar more importantly that was far away from kingslanding so he can't be blamed for that. "He couldn't save Robert from Cersei" How could he be to blame for that? Roberts wine was spiked and he was jumping around after a vicious wild boar, hardly something a military strategist could prevent. "He allowed himself to be pushed aside as soon as joffrey was in power" Joffrey dismissed him from the kings guard, can't be a kingsguard when the king doesn't want you.

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Posted (edited)

I had forgotten what I wanted to say the most in my initial post. D&D should've had the brains/ balls enough to give Daenerys an alternate outcome to Georges Daenerys. Why couldn't they just have her deciding that Jon is the rightful heir to Westeros and have her returning to the bay of dragons where people still actual respect her. They should know by now that the show Daenerys is perceived in a different light than book Daenerys and gone with that.

Edited by darksellsword

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10 minutes ago, darmody said:

Yes. It would be good for companionship and security. But Barry was never a strategist or political player, was he? He couldn't do anything about Aerys' murder. He couldn't save Robert from Cersei. He did nothing to help Ned. He allowed himself to be pushed aside as soon as Joffrey was in power. 

As a soldier and Lord Commander, he had mind for military strategy, though. But first and foremost he was a soldier and in GoT soldiers tend to have a certain mindset that usually makes them ill suited for politics at the same time. Selmy was occasionally even rather naive in his remarks, whereas Jorah had seen more of the world and would sometimes give Dany more realistic advice. For example, in season 4 soon after taking Meereen, Selmy urges her to sail to Westeros and claims that the old houses will flock for her support. Jorah notes that in reality any house or army will join whichever side has better chances of winning. 

Barristan would have been the missing link between Dany and her family heritage. He would have definitely been a valuable councelor in war matters and general stuff regarding Westeros and how things work there. But yeah, as stated by many people above, when the script demands that Dany and her team act like a bunch of ignorant idiots, no one can stop that.

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7 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I totally agree with this. Dany has been very badly treated in the north, and the fault there lies 100% with Jon, in my opinion. Her reactions are mostly understandable, if not entirely smart. 

I don’t get all the interest in seeing dany go mad queen. 

Partly perhaps for some people it is that she's been unstable for a long time without the show properly addressing it. It's one thing to believe in yourself and drive people to bend to your will and do things they wouldn't otherwise do. But to take a mild example, think of the way she greeted Jon Snow, alleged King in the North. She was stiffly polite, but rather cold and insistent. She didn't try to woo him except by apologizing for the murders of his supposed uncle and grandfather. No diplomacy. Just "bend the knee" or you're my prisoner. 

That's a mild example, as I said. Cersei, Balon Greyjoy, Ramsay, etc. might do worse. But Danny has done much worse. The crucifixion of the masters, burning the khals, executing the Tarlys. We took most of that as part of being a conqueror, but remember back when she wouldn't even let the Dothrak that technically caused Drogo's death to take slaves? Drogo told her "this is the way of war," but she wasn't having that. Now she's much worse, though she still doesn't support slavery. 

The sheer number of times she's walked serenely away from fiery death, she's not necessarily mad, but there is something wrong with her the show took too long addressing. 

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3 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's a mild example, as I said. Cersei, Balon Greyjoy, Ramsay, etc. might do worse. But Danny has done much worse. The crucifixion of the masters, burning the khals, executing the Tarlys. We took most of that as part of being a conqueror, but remember back when she wouldn't even let the Dothrak that technically caused Drogo's death to take slaves? Drogo told her "this is the way of war," but she wasn't having that. Now she's much worse, though she still doesn't support slavery.

Seriously now, that's all points that made her a major character as she made her way from becoming a scary girl to a fierce ruler and conqueror.

 Are we supposed to believe that we should have seen signs of madness in her acts, but we missed it? 

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16 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

Barristan Selmy was more than qualified as a military commander "He couldn't do anything about Aerys murder" He was mortally wounded fighting alongside Rhaegar more importantly that was far away from kingslanding so he can't be blamed for that. "He couldn't save Robert from Cersei" How could he be to blame for that? Roberts wine was spiked and he was jumping around after a vicious wild boar, hardly something a military strategist could prevent. "He allowed himself to be pushed aside as soon as joffrey was in power" Joffrey dismissed him from the kings guard, can't be a kingsguard when the king doesn't want you.

That's what I meant about Aerys. He wasn't in a position to defend him. 

Sniffing out Cersei's plot against the king was not a military matter. But Danny would require him to navigate political, social, and waters. He was completely blindsided by the coup that replaced Lord Protector Ned with Queen Regent Cersei. Which a Kingsguard might want to know, considering it led to a number of people being slaughtered by the city guard in the presence of the king. 

As for Joffrey dismissing him, almost certainly being out of the loop and playing a part cast by Ned in the drama of Robert's dying wishes. Because Ned relied on him to be impartial, and Cersei wanted someone partial to Joffrey(namely, his father) in that role. 

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6 minutes ago, darmody said:

<snip>The crucifixion of the masters, burning the khals, executing the Tarlys.<snip>

Seriously, are you even looking at the context? There's nothing that is even unexceptional about any of that, far less a sign of madness. Every act she took had justification, and you might argue against one or the other of those actions--especially if you take a modern perspective, which is of course not an appropriate perspective--but for a ruler in that milieu, especially a conqueror, those are really routine actions.

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Seriously now, that's all points that made her a major character as she made her way from becoming a scary girl to a fierce ruler and conqueror.

 Are we supposed to believe that we should have seen signs of madness in her acts, but we missed it?  

She isn t mad. However it has been showed several times that she can be cruel when seeking revenge. And while I completly agree that it could be a problem for the people in westeros to have a targ that burns the people she judges as evil this shift in her allies is just to swift.

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

She isn t mad. However it has been showed several times that she can be cruel when seeking revenge. And while I completly agree that it could be a problem for the people in westeros to have a targ that burns the people she judges as evil this shift in her allies is just to swift.

Sorry didn't understand the last sentence? 

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8 hours ago, Kajjo said:

No, I don't think Ser Barristan would make a difference. 

Daenerys is psychologically unstable and since season 1 has been on the verge of madness. Rage and fury are no good advisers and we will see how Daenerys reacts to Missandei's beheading. She's probably going to make her biggest mistake.

I liked the role of Barristan, though. Both the actor and the character. 

Neither are Tyrion and Varys.

5 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

This is a complete load. She has a temper. It's not that big and has never gotten out of control. She has done absolutely nothing, said absolutely nothing that indicates insanity. Nothing. As far as this show goes she is beyond doubt in the top 25% of characters for mental stability. Everything she does makes sense.

Agreed.

The fact that she has a temper is no problem. Like I'm sorry but what's the difference between Arya and Daenerys.

15 minutes ago, darmody said:

Partly perhaps for some people it is that she's been unstable for a long time without the show properly addressing it. It's one thing to believe in yourself and drive people to bend to your will and do things they wouldn't otherwise do. But to take a mild example, think of the way she greeted Jon Snow, alleged King in the North. She was stiffly polite, but rather cold and insistent. She didn't try to woo him except by apologizing for the murders of his supposed uncle and grandfather. No diplomacy. Just "bend the knee" or you're my prisoner. 

That's a mild example, as I said. Cersei, Balon Greyjoy, Ramsay, etc. might do worse. But Danny has done much worse. The crucifixion of the masters, burning the khals, executing the Tarlys. We took most of that as part of being a conqueror, but remember back when she wouldn't even let the Dothrak that technically caused Drogo's death to take slaves? Drogo told her "this is the way of war," but she wasn't having that. Now she's much worse, though she still doesn't support slavery. 

The sheer number of times she's walked serenely away from fiery death, she's not necessarily mad, but there is something wrong with her the show took too long addressing. 

*rolls eyes*

Come on, that's like saying something is wrong with Superman because he walks (or floats) serenely away from a maelstrom of gunfire. Invulnerability is part of Superman's power. Invulnerability to fire is part of Daenerys' power.

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Sorry didn't understand the last sentence? 

She easily burns people she judges as her enemies.

Her advisors and supporters have known she acts this way for years. However after years of saying to everybody she is the best ruller ever they abandon her withing seconds (at least agree she isn t the best ruller for westeros)

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1 minute ago, divica said:

She easily burns people she judges as her enemies.

Her advisors and supporters have known she acts this way for years. However after years of saying to everybody she is the best ruller ever they abandon her withing seconds (at least agree she isn t the best ruller for westeros)

Yes, I completely agree with you. We don't know how the show shall expose her "madness" but I believe up to now, she stands sane. 

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Seriously now, that's all points that made her a major character as she made her way from becoming a scary girl to a fierce ruler and conqueror.

 Are we supposed to believe that we should have seen signs of madness in her acts, but we missed it? 

I don't see them that way, though madness is one possible explanation. I'd rather have more concrete proof. 

What I'm saying is to some fans the show has never adequately addressed the fact that there's something wrong with her. That she has delusions of grandeur, selective sense of justice, etc. The Mad Queen thing is a way to do that, although it's not well-supported outside of fear that she would end up like her father. 

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8 hours ago, Kajjo said:

No, I don't think Ser Barristan would make a difference. 

Daenerys is psychologically unstable and since season 1 has been on the verge of madness. Rage and fury are no good advisers and we will see how Daenerys reacts to Missandei's beheading. She's probably going to make her biggest mistake.

I liked the role of Barristan, though. Both the actor and the character. 

Neither are Tyrion and Varys.

5 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

This is a complete load. She has a temper. It's not that big and has never gotten out of control. She has done absolutely nothing, said absolutely nothing that indicates insanity. Nothing. As far as this show goes she is beyond doubt in the top 25% of characters for mental stability. Everything she does makes sense.

Agreed.

The fact that she has a temper is no problem. Like I'm sorry but what's the difference between Arya and Daenerys?

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, darmody said:

I don't see them that way, though madness is one possible explanation. I'd rather have more concrete proof. 

What I'm saying is to some fans the show has never adequately addressed the fact that there's something wrong with her. That she has delusions of grandeur, selective sense of justice, etc. The Mad Queen thing is a way to do that, although it's not well-supported outside of fear that she would end up like her father. 

Because a great part of Dany's actions is excused by her lineage and she is indeed special. Mother of dragons? Unburnt?

Up to a point its justified from her rare lineage from the Old Valyria and up to a point this is that makes her unique in the show and in the eyes of people. This is what makes her unique to herself. 

She can't escape the fact that she is a Targ. And as Aemon said "A Targaryen all alone in the world is a terrible thing".  

Edited by Nightwish

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5 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

This is a complete load. She has a temper. It's not that big and has never gotten out of control. She has done absolutely nothing, said absolutely nothing that indicates insanity. Nothing. As far as this show goes she is beyond doubt in the top 25% of characters for mental stability. Everything she does makes sense.

Well yours and Bear42’s description of Dany I can agree to. Maybe they try to paint her mad and I’ve heard people saying clearly she is, calling her dragons “children” and all. I wouldn’t call my next door neighbor crazy for calling her cats “her children”.

Sure, this is fantasy, but if this is the story, you’ve got to tell it right: she’s a dragon lord of Valyria - the last one - she has a blood bond with a dragon, of course she’s got a temper, of course centuries of having it your way make you arrogant and at times ruthless. I don’t remember the exact quote but someone said (maybe in the books) that to steer a horse you squeeze with the leg outside the turn because the horse tends to run away from danger whereas with a dragon you do it the other way around ‘cause they’ll turn towards danger so yeah, she’s reckless and violent but this is how they are in the story it’s not necessarily madness. 

Having said that, there still is the matter of “greatness and madness are two sides of a coin.. Every time a Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath” ... only for a few days now.

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Because a great part of Dany's actions is excused by her lineage and she is indeed special. Mother of dragons? Unburnt? Up to a point its justified from her rare lineage from the Old Valyria and up to a point this is that makes her unique in the show and in the eyes of people. She can't escape the fact that she is a Targ. And as Aemon said "A Targaryen all alone in the world is a terrible thing".  

Yes. It's not a "delusion of grandeur" that she walked into the pyre with the dragon eggs, and the first dragons in centuries hatched in her arms under the eye of the new comet. Nor that she built herself and her ragged band of followers up into a mighty power. If anybody, anywhere has reason to believe she has a personal, special destiny, it's her.

After all that happens, people seriously think she should be humble and just accept the status quo?

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12 minutes ago, darmody said:

I don't see them that way, though madness is one possible explanation. I'd rather have more concrete proof. 

What I'm saying is to some fans the show has never adequately addressed the fact that there's something wrong with her. That she has delusions of grandeur, selective sense of justice, etc. The Mad Queen thing is a way to do that, although it's not well-supported outside of fear that she would end up like her father. 

I think it would be better to cal her cruel. Like she can be nice to the smallfolk but she has been consistently cruel to those in power. And that would lead to problems in westeros.

Like a lord writting a letter to danny saying he won t kneel and she deciding to burn him. It is completly consistent with her behaviour and it is also consistent that people in westeros don t like targs that burn people alive. 

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19 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Seriously, are you even looking at the context? There's nothing that is even unexceptional about any of that, far less a sign of madness. Every act she took had justification, and you might argue against one or the other of those actions--especially if you take a modern perspective, which is of course not an appropriate perspective--but for a ruler in that milieu, especially a conqueror, those are really routine actions.

I am, yes. Like the context of other characters and how we judge them. Everyone knows Tywin is a villain, because he had Rhaegar's family killed, he condoned war crimee, he plotted the Red Wedding. They don't care that people we consider good guys have done as bad or worse, or that it was done in the interest of his house. 

The show could hold her to the standards of a Medieval conqueror, but of course it doesn't. She's elevated nearly to goddess status in the Mhysa scene, characters are always saying she's better than every monarch ever, she's liberator, etc. 

Even judging pragmatically, killing the masters was born out of sentiment, not law and order, and it had a negative effect on her rule considering the masters almost retook her city. Burning the masters' emissaries was a totally unnecessary breach of custom. At least Tyrion was able to convince her to spare one.

There is no possible way burning the Tarlys benefited her. Has a single house flipped to her side since then? Not counting Kneeling Jon, who was already in the bag. Also not counting the new Dornish prince, because Dorne was already on her side. 

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