Jump to content
Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Is the show beyond redemption?

Recommended Posts

I mean it certainly seems so doesn't it? 

My question to you fine folk is: is there anything D&D could do at this point, no matter how much we believe they won't, that would redeem the show for you?

For me, alot would have to happen. For instance they would have to explain the ignorant battle tactics, wtf Bran was doing when warging the ravens & what purpose it served, give me some believable reason for Dany the mad queen to be happening, some believable reason for Jaime to be ditching Brienne & running to Cersei's aid, something better than "Euron wasn't paying attention" when Tyrion let loose he knew Cersei is pregnant, some further explanation about the NK, where are the babies he was getting from Craster? Why did they have to be boys? What was he doing with them? Are they the WW's? If so how did they grow up so fast? Why did Bran not tell Theon to stand his ground rather than rushing the NK? What exactly did the NK want & why? 

I have no faith I'll actually get any of these but IF by some strange fate D&D have only been playing Dumb & Dumber & do give me most of them, I think then the show may be redeemed to some degree for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damage has already been done in my mind. Arya killing the NK and Rhaegel getting killed in the dumbest way possible because the main protagonist "forgot" her enemy that she was going to Dragonstone to prepare to face existed made sure of that. Might as well hurry up and put this show in its grave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest and realistic, unless they can cover these plot holes in a narrative way within the show itself (so in a sense they will stop being plot holes), I prefer not to hear their explanations because every time they explain they tend to make it worse. 

And there will be no need for it in my opinion because since they don’t cover these points they don’t judge them as important or as mistakes, and this is the most important to remember. 

Still it’s a very big show with many hours of broadcasting and I don’t think that so many tv viewers will care so much after the ending. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 She has always been cruel and spiteful and yet he stayed. Now that the army of the dead is defeated he is going back. Their relationship was always toxic even ignoring the fact they are twins. I really wasn't suprised by it. Also I don't see dany really going mad queen. I mean they always do this. Arya and sansa were gonna kill eachother in season seven but..they didn't. There are a hundred other things that almost happen but don't and that is annoying. As for anything they can do to "redeem" the show there are only two episodes left. If you hate it why watch it. I stoped watching TWD  after the mid season premiere this year because it just wasn't fun to watch anymore. As for the NK it's done they aren't gonna show anything else with it. I thought it was very anti climatic.

The battle tactics were painful I will agree. Why would you send out the dothraki to rush the army of the dead like that. Not to mention that the lannister army and tarly's forces took high garden so quickly and with so little casulties on their side. Most siege's were done by starving out your enemy until they gave up or starving them for a while then attacking while they are weakened. Attacking them full force like that would result in SO many casulties that the lannister army would be incredibly weakened and helpless against dany's forces.

 

Is it redeemable? I still like it and will continue  to watch it. If they have a sequel to game of thrones I will watch it (won't watch a prequel though)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think so.

They could still salvage some of the NK/WW story if Bran finally decides to give some explanation for the motives, designs, etc. why now....

Arya killing the NK, no going back from that, it makes much of Jon and even Dany's stories moot, because we didn't need 'fire made flesh' dragons, we didn't need any special Targ blood from either of them, and we didn't need Jon the prince that was promised Snow, so even if they provide back story on the NK, nothing can fix the way the end sidelined Jon and Dany.

It's too late to make Euron Greyjoy a substantial character who is deserving of killing a dragon, being the queen's consort and still alive at the end of the series.  He should have gotten better lines and more screen time as well as a better back story a couple seasons ago.

There is no way to fix the dumb military strategies we've seen the good guys using since last season.  They might be able to at least make Tyrion's advice less stupid if it turns out he was doing it on purpose to try and protect House Lannister, I'm not sure this could be retconned or how well it would work, but at least we wouldn't be complaining about how all of Tyrion's ideas for years were terrible, there would be a reason.  The butterfly effect on this though is still  harmful to Dany et al for believing him and Jorah for believing him still when Dany was going to sack him.

If the show goes 'mad queen'...I would think this isn't a bad ending to her overall story....desire for power/means v. ends....there would be a lot there that is on message, but it's too late to fix the terrible execution.  Such a huge change in her heroes trajectory would have to have at least a full season, 10 episodes much more time spent to see the change in her than what they've done, so there is no fixing that. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't understand all the dislike for D & D for this season. What do you all expect, that they can write in two years or so a compelling script when it has taken the author himself eight years to get who knows how far through the Winds of Winter. Asoiaf is a very complicated series in terms of plotting, why should we assume any script D & D came out with would be any good seeing as they lack almost all the source material save some pointers from GrrM. I think the plot holes and daft logic are just the inevitable result of getting so far beyond the source material and being required to adapt something that isn't actually written yet - which I don't think anyone else has ever really done, it is a very strange situation.

What I am much more critical about is their behaviour during the first four or five seasons when they did have the books but still insisted on jamming their own witless offerings into George's story. That's what makes them irredeemable, IMO, not the fact they've failed to achieve something the work's creator has also, up until now, failed to carry out. 

So I'm disagreeing with the premise of the thread; the programme isn't actually irredeemable and we can't fix the underlying cause of the problem (no books). 

Edited by Chaircat Meow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I don't understand all the dislike for D & D for this season. What do you all expect, that they can write in two years or so a compelling script when it has taken the author himself eight years to get who knows how far through the Winds of Winter. Asoiaf is a very complicated series in terms of plotting, why should we assume any script D & D came out with would be any good seeing as they lack almost all the source material save some pointers from GrrM. I think the plot holes and daft logic are just the inevitable result of getting so far beyond the source material and being required to adapt something that isn't actually written yet - which I don't think anyone else has ever really done, it is a very strange situation.

What I am much more critical about is their behaviour during the first four or five seasons when they did have the books but still insisted on jamming their own witless offerings into George's story. That's what makes them irredeemable, IMO, not the fact they've failed to achieve something the work's creator has also, up until now, failed to carry out. 

I agree with you but their mistakes are dumb, seriously dump for such a big production and budget. 

Let’s not forget that Martin was by himself, they could have much more better screen writers and a more resourceful developing team to work on  it, since we are talking about 10 million per episode. 

Edited by Nightwish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I agree with you but their mistakes are dumb, seriously dump for such a big production and budget. 

What bothers me the most is the interactions between the main characters; I feel the Dany/Jon, Sansa/Tyrion, Dany/Tyrion dynamics are all so lifeless and boring. If a scene between Jon and Dany was actually interesting then I could get over Euron's machine gun of doom. 

Again, they can't fix this now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well for me the problems with the show are not just things that have happened in the last few episodes.  It's an ongoing thing with plotting and some dumb behavior from characters, and then throw in many, many poor scripts with unintelligent dialogues.  So it is not possible to fix/'redeem' those mistakes.  Those are the episodes they made and nothing can be done about it now.  You can't really fix that kind of thing in 2 episodes.  

The show cannot return to the quality it once had, this late in the game, and there is no possible way to wrap things up in a truly satisfying manner, IMO.  I'm not angry about it or anything.  It's a shame.  I do still enjoy the show though for entertainments sake...it's just a far cry from what it once was. 

I'm still thankful for what we got...lots of things were done very well and I've enjoyed the show a lot over the years.  It's just disappointing because it would have been amazing if the quality could have been maintained.

I think I'd feel better about things, if I knew the books would be finished and that the show wasn't the only resolution to the story we may ever get. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

What bothers me the most is the interactions between the main characters; I feel the Dany/Jon, Sansa/Tyrion, Dany/Tyrion dynamics are all so lifeless and boring. If a scene between Jon and Dany was actually interesting then I could get over Euron's machine gun of doom. 

Again, they can't fix this now. 

I agree the latest seasons from 5 and after all miss flame in the characters. The last season especially their responses are lifeless, almost robotic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I don't understand all the dislike for D & D for this season. What do you all expect, that they can write in two years or so a compelling script when it has taken the author himself eight years to get who knows how far through the Winds of Winter. Asoiaf is a very complicated series in terms of plotting, why should we assume any script D & D came out with would be any good seeing as they lack almost all the source material save some pointers from GrrM. I think the plot holes and daft logic are just the inevitable result of getting so far beyond the source material and being required to adapt something that isn't actually written yet - which I don't think anyone else has ever really done, it is a very strange situation.

What I am much more critical about is their behaviour during the first four or five seasons when they did have the books but still insisted on jamming their own witless offerings into George's story. That's what makes them irredeemable, IMO, not the fact they've failed to achieve something the work's creator has also, up until now, failed to carry out. 

So I'm disagreeing with the premise of the thread; the programme isn't actually irredeemable and we can't fix the underlying cause of the problem (no books). 

Oh yeah, the lack of books really explains the fact D & D write teleporting fleets, a dragon queen that forgets the enemy that destroyed her naval presence, a supposed 'bad guy' that won't execute her enemies that are standing like idiots right outside her walls when she's clearly after a fight, smirking overpowered Mary Sues, reducing complex characters into meme-spinning cock joke tellers, et cetera, et cetera.

The books not only had plenty of material, but even if you agree that those things were overwrought and needed to be cut out (a perfectly reasonable point of view) the least you could do is keep characters consistent, adhere to basic logic, and stop wanking over your own brilliance when the people are quickly realising you're not wearing any clothes.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me it's done, during my time reading the books and watching the series until now I have not gone in search of leaks until after episode 4 . So to me the damage is done, I needed something to excite the show for me and I went in search of it.

They could do a few things in the next two episodes that could potentially be a little compensation but in general for me the series is ruined.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Oh yeah, the lack of books really explains the fact D & D write teleporting fleets, a dragon queen that forgets the enemy that destroyed her naval presence, a supposed 'bad guy' that won't execute her enemies that are standing like idiots right outside her walls when she's clearly after a fight, smirking overpowered Mary Sues, reducing complex characters into meme-spinning cock joke tellers, et cetera, et cetera.

The books not only had plenty of material, but even if you agree that those things were overwrought and needed to be cut out (a perfectly reasonable point of view) the least thing you could do is keep characters consistent, adhere to basic logic, and stop wanking over your own brilliance when the people are quickly realising you're not wearing any clothes.

It doesn't explain everything wrong with the writing and plotting, I agree. But it does explain why the quality has plummeted so much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The show has always been riddled with unforced errors, plot lapses, mistakes, things that would have been very easy to correct with a line or two of dialogue here and there and more attention to detail.

So, on some level, that it's finally going down in flames due to plot lapses, lack of attention to detail and mistakes is totally appropriate, if unfortunate.

Edited by Cas Stark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Oh yeah, the lack of books really explains the fact D & D write teleporting fleets, a dragon queen that forgets the enemy that destroyed her naval presence, a supposed 'bad guy' that won't execute her enemies that are standing like idiots right outside her walls when she's clearly after a fight, smirking overpowered Mary Sues, reducing complex characters into meme-spinning cock joke tellers, et cetera, et cetera.

The books not only had plenty of material, but even if you agree that those things were overwrought and needed to be cut out (a perfectly reasonable point of view) the least thing you could do is keep characters consistent, adhere to basic logic, and stop wanking over your own brilliance when the people are quickly realising you're not wearing any clothes.

This exactly. 

The issue isn't that didn't have the source material, the issue is their own ego. If they had just thought for a minute about things they could have made a decent show. All they had to do was make things make sense & have the characters stay true to their character instead of trying to shock & awe. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

It doesn't explain everything wrong with the writing and plotting, I agree. But it does explain why the quality has plummeted so much. 

I disagree. It would count for a certain degree of quality being lost because they just aren't the writers George is. But the reason the show has plummeted so much is the bad writing & plot holes. They aren't just not as good as George, they are down right terrible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Yes, the White Walkers were the babies. The alternative would be that they were snacks.)

I agree with a lot that has been said here. Arya killing the Night King - I keep thinking about how she killed the Waif. AHow did she do it? By snuffing out the light. Because Arya had just been living blind for weeks, while the Waif hadn't. Now that was clever. That gave a reason why she would be able to kill an enemy more formidable in combat than herself. The Night King? No twist at all, not even warged crows coming down from the sky to distract him in the last moment, as I had thought.

Euron is the character I dislike the most. He just comes in toward the end of the series and suddenly he's the second most dangerous person in the story? Do we really have to see his eeeeeviiil smirk? He's cartoonish. He's unimportant, or should be. The story was never about him. In the novels he stays away from civilized folks as he should.

But worst of all is the ballistae. Suddenly, a super weapon appears. Ballistae don't work like that in the real world, nor should they here. If they were this good, why haven't they been used against ships for centuries in our world? Or in Game of Thrones? They have crossbows, someone was bound to try making really big crossbows and see if it worked.

Bye, bye, dragons. I waited for two decades, ever since I read about those eggs hatching in the fire, securing the un-burned Daenerys the loyalty of the retainers who remained. That was a fantastic moment to end the first novel. But now. Stopped by a weapon and a smirking guy no one wanted to see. You two survived a battle that was almost the end of the world, only to have your trajectory end like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jarl Halstein said:

 

But worst of all is the ballistae. Suddenly, a super weapon appears. Ballistae don't work like that in the real world, nor should they here. If they were this good, why haven't they been used against ships for centuries in our world? Or in Game of Thrones? They have crossbows, someone was bound to try making really big crossbows and see if it worked.

I love all the memes regarding Qyburn's tech.

Qyburn: Oh, your majesty, you're going to love this: It's what I call a nuclear bomb. I think it would be brilliant to use against the Dragon Queen.

Cersei: Yes, but where's my elephants?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. It would count for a certain degree of quality being lost because they just aren't the writers George is. But the reason the show has plummeted so much is the bad writing & plot holes. They aren't just not as good as George, they are down right terrible. 

Yeah, and what is really disappointing is some of the stuff they apparently wrote, that wasn't from the books, in earlier seasons that was far more clever and interesting.  They absolutely can and have done better then they are right now.  It isn't even that they can't write!  No, they aren't GRRM, but they aren't as bad as what the show is right now.  

Which leads me to the conclusion that their focus just isn't on GoT anymore.  And that's really sad to throw the towel in, in the last couple seasons, instead of seeing it through properly to the end when it is within your ability. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Yeah, and what is really disappointing is some of the stuff they apparently wrote, that wasn't from the books, in earlier seasons that was far more clever and interesting.  They absolutely can and have done better then they are right now.  It isn't even that they can't write!  No, they aren't GRRM, but they aren't as bad as what the show is right now.  

Which leads me to the conclusion that their focus just isn't on GoT anymore.  And that's really sad to throw the towel in, in the last couple seasons, instead of seeing it through properly to the end when it is within your ability. 

I agree. I think their heads got too big & they stopped being fans. At some point they decided that since it's aSoIaF they didnt have to put any effort into it because we would like whatever bullshit they put on the screen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×