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iRapture

This ending is nothing but Bitter

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On 5/18/2019 at 1:13 PM, hallam said:

Yes, the signs were there but we were persuaded to ignore them. 

I rather suspect that the folk screaming that GRRM would not turn Danny into Richard Nixon napalming Cambodia and Laos are the same folk who refuse to believe Nixon did that.

Calling the producers stupid for not giving them the ending they want might be OK if this was all their creation. Claiming that this is a stupid ending they invented without any input from GRRM is just nonsense. They have no evidence for that at all but they will carry on in their denial just like they have on Stannis.

I really wish that they had done something like turning Dany into Nixon, but they didn't, they made her genocidally mad because genetics, and had this madness be a sudden onset. There simply is not a parrallel here between a leader frustrated with a war he can't extricate himself from resorting to secretive military campaigns that may include war crimes against an enemy that lets remember was also ruthless ( there really was a Ho Chi Minh trail violating Cambodian neutrality as cover). 

They could have had a really interesting story where Dany turns dark - governing Westeros was always going to be hard, her social revolution was going to be much harder when there isn't something as simple as slavery to solve and the social structure is a thousand year old intricate web of vassalage and loyalty, and 2 religions as well. Taken together with the different expectations of her followers from Essos and questions about her legitimacy and it would not be hard to imagine an increasingly paranoid and isolated Queen taking ever harsher measures to assert control culminating in revolt where the Starks and Jon almost can't help but be dragged into opposition.That would have been consistent with the characters strengths and flaws and her development - would have lent meaning to the long sections concerning the Brotherhood, The Sparrows and the Difficulties in Governing Merreen. 

It also would have required the space that 2 normal length seasons would have provided to tell, so instead we got this travesty. I do think it's telling that those defending the Mad Queen turn do so often posit a straw man of fans upset that Dany did not get a Disney ending, when not a single bit of criticism I have seen objects to idea of Dany taking a dark turn, but object to how it was done.

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I wonder how many people cannot bring themselves to rewatch the first season of the show, given their knowledge that the obvious hero character, Ned, ultimately dies as a result of his own mistakes. There's no sweet there.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

I really wish that they had done something like turning Dany into Nixon, but they didn't, they made her genocidally mad because genetics, and had this madness be a sudden onset. There simply is not a parrallel here between a leader frustrated with a war he can't extricate himself from resorting to secretive military campaigns that may include war crimes against an enemy that lets remember was also ruthless ( there really was a Ho Chi Minh trail violating Cambodian neutrality as cover). 

They could have had a really interesting story where Dany turns dark - governing Westeros was always going to be hard, her social revolution was going to be much harder when there isn't something as simple as slavery to solve and the social structure is a thousand year old intricate web of vassalage and loyalty, and 2 religions as well. Taken together with the different expectations of her followers from Essos and questions about her legitimacy and it would not be hard to imagine an increasingly paranoid and isolated Queen taking ever harsher measures to assert control culminating in revolt where the Starks and Jon almost can't help but be dragged into opposition.That would have been consistent with the characters strengths and flaws and her development - would have lent meaning to the long sections concerning the Brotherhood, The Sparrows and the Difficulties in Governing Merreen. 

It also would have required the space that 2 normal length seasons would have provided to tell, so instead we got this travesty. I do think it's telling that those defending the Mad Queen turn do so often posit a straw man of fans upset that Dany did not get a Disney ending, when not a single bit of criticism I have seen objects to idea of Dany taking a dark turn, but object to how it was done.

My problem is that for six and a half seasons, the Show pretty much glorified cruelty.  Burning your enemies alive, feeding them to dogs, gouging their eyes out, feeding them their children in a pie - these all showed that you were a badass, not to be messed with.  The way to defeat cruel enemies was by being even more cruel than they are.

Dany undoubtedly displays cruelty during her invasion of Westeros, but for some reason, this is now something that greatly troubles her advisers, and makes them plot against her, and that doesn't really ring true.  What Dany did at Kings Landing was horrible, but entirely in accordance with the usages of chivalry, if a city defied a demand to surrender, and compounded the offence by killing a prominent prisoner.

Edited by SeanF

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I think Martin has always intentionally lied to us. He knew that there would never be a bittersweet ending. If I knew this, I would never wait for the final for many years.

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On 5/17/2019 at 6:10 AM, iRapture said:

Bran on the Throne with a Council at his hands? Tyrion either dead or alive on the council, depending on which ending they air with. Oh they're going with him Alive. 

I cant see anything worse at this point. I am utterly disappointed by the whole wrap up of the show. 

Jon goes to the Wall as punishment for killing Dany. 

Fuck this show. fuck fuck and more fuck.

You've completely misunderstood Martin's clearly stated goal. He is deliberately trying to create a tremendous sadness at the end because he feels that's what has the power to makes his tale a lasting and memorable one.

And has he? Has he created a tremendous sadness at the end?

If so, then his work here is done, for that was always his intent. He hasn't hidden this goal from anyone, although many have hidden it from themselves.

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1 hour ago, Ilissa said:

I think Martin has always intentionally lied to us. He knew that there would never be a bittersweet ending. If I knew this, I would never wait for the final for many years.

Many have lied to themselves, but Martin has never lied to us.

He did exactly what he said he would do: created a tremendous sadness at the end so his tale would be powerful.

 

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37 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Many have lied to themselves, but Martin has never lied to us.

He did exactly what he said he would do: created a tremendous sadness at the end so his tale would be powerful.

 

He also warned in interviews that Westeros was facing two existential threats while playing small games around the throne; North and East, obviously the Night King and Dany with her dragons.

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37 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Many have lied to themselves, but Martin has never lied to us.

He did exactly what he said he would do: created a tremendous sadness at the end so his tale would be powerful.

 

He also warned in interviews that Westeros was facing two existential threats while playing small games around the throne; North and East (obviously the Night King and Dany with her dragons).

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It is winter. If you’ve paid attention to the story, you may have heard about winter and its effects. After the horror stories of the past few years, is anyone in the realm even half-way prepared for winter? Is there enough food? Are the walls and roofs in decent repair? Is there enough firewood? Do we currently have available to us the man power and draft animal power needed to correct deficiencies in these areas? Some thoughts—

In Kings Landing some time ago, that great humanitarian Lord Baelish had something like this to say:: “We have enough food for 5 years. If the winter lasts longer than 5 years, we’ll have fewer peasants.” Given the actions of many lords and ladies, including some fan favorites, the situation is undoubtedly now worse.

In the Reach, those great heroes Bron, Jaime, Lord Tarly and his son…stole all of the peasants’ grain. Then Daenerys Targaryen burned a very large number of the wagons carrying the grain.

In Dorne, the answers to the above questions may be in the affirmative.

Everywhere else, the answers will vary from “maybe,” to “no,” to “hell no,” to “you can’t be serious.” Will there be widespread, probably massive starvation, many deaths due to freezing, etc.? Certainly.

 

Bittersweet ending? I don’t think so.

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The ending is actually happy for everyone except Dany.

The Starks end up ruling everything, they all got what they wanted, except Bran who didn't want anything anyway.

Bran as king and Tyrion as Hand of the King? If people told us in season 1 it would end like that, we'd think they were hopelessly naive.

Jon will forever be haunted by what he had to do, so his story is bittersweet, but ultimately he gets a happy ending, he gets to be a free man north of the wall, with the rest of the freefolk.

When people repeat the stupid, over-used Ramsay quote "if you thought this has a happy ending..." I'm gonna smack them over the back of the head, cause the ending is actually happy to the point of being cheesy. I mean, the small council at the end was basically fan service. Bronn as Master of Coin, Sam as Grand Maester, Brienne as LC of the Kings Guard....

The tragic element is Dany's story, which was so horribly rushed and butchered to the point where it barely exists anyway.

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On 5/19/2019 at 2:35 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

Many have lied to themselves, but Martin has never lied to us.

He did exactly what he said he would do: created a tremendous sadness at the end so his tale would be powerful. 

 

So far, I think the D&D just created a tremendous annoyance. Am I truly sad at this ending? Do I feel compassion towards anybody left alive? Nope,  yet I am intensely annoyed at wasting so much time at something so hopeless and trop-y, and at careful examination even misogynistic .

I hope the books would do better, but not really.

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On 5/19/2019 at 9:35 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

Many have lied to themselves, but Martin has never lied to us.

He did exactly what he said he would do: created a tremendous sadness at the end so his tale would be powerful.

 

No, he was talking about a bittersweet ending like Lord of the Rings.

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6 hours ago, Darryk said:

...

When people repeat the stupid, over-used Ramsay quote "if you thought this has a happy ending..." I'm gonna smack them over the back of the head, cause the ending is actually happy to the point of being cheesy. I mean, the small council at the end was basically fan service. Bronn as Master of Coin, Sam as Grand Maester, Brienne as LC of the Kings Guard....

...

I agree that the small council was more than a little bit cheesy. Also, the meeting of the lords and ladies, dispensing justice and choosing a wise new ruler, was a pretty sappy affair. I was horribly disappointed. Kept expecting the group to break out in the Westerosi version of Kumbaya. Never happened. Can't imagine why. 

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Posted (edited)

I just realised how the show COULD be saved if everything aligned perfectly and still according to the framework which has been set in place, based on things we didn't see. Meaning that it COULD potentially mean that the story continues and becomes good/interesting again in-universe, even if they'll never show it and we would never know about it anyway.

 

There's still a chance that the NK lives on like Sauron's spirit and will come back. I think Bran said so in a deleted scene. And this could mean that Bran could still be the NK himself, which was a super cool theory - OR it could be Jon Snow. Check out that theory as well, "The Night King's name is Jon Snow", it's really cool. But it's even cooler if Bran is somehow the NK and Jon is Azor Ahai and has to kill him. And since Jon killed Daenerys with that random dagger in Nissa Nissa fashion the dagger could possibly be Lightbringer. Seriously, it's possible. I don't think it will happen and it's not at all probable but it's POSSIBLE FROM THE FRAMEWORK WE HAVE.

 

Littlefinger could also have faked his own death and still be alive. Obviously this goes for a lot of characters but Littlefinger has the biggest chance of having faked his own death since he's Littlefinger. So he could still return and be in the Game again. It's possible. Check out the theories on YouTube etc.

 

Drogon, Rhaegal or Viserion COULD have laid eggs or been pregnant without us knowing, so that there will be a breeding population of dragons in the world again.

 

And in general, since Jon Snow is still alive, anything can still happen with him. He COULD still go back to KL, and become King. Or become Azor Ahai, as I said above. Or whatever.

 

 

Tyrion COULD still find Tysha.

 

etc etc

 

So the point is that everything is NOT NECESSARILY ended and cut so that nothing will ever happen again, and even things which we think are ended might not be.

Edited by Adam Targaryen

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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2019 at 1:16 PM, Empress Sansa said:

He also warned in interviews that Westeros was facing two existential threats while playing small games around the throne; North and East (obviously the Night King and Dany with her dragons).

And the hero who saved the world from those twin existential threats of ice and fire now gets to live his life free and far away from the game of thrones. No more Targaryen threat. No more stupid civil wars and bloody coups about the "rightful" king.

Jon's ending is bittersweet. He had to kill the woman he loved to save the world, so that's the bitter part. But his escape from the crown and all the kneeling courtiers vying for it is the sweetest part of all. He got a far happier ending than anyone could have imagined he'd get.

I know the showrunners left all this for the viewers to figure out on their own, and that many of them will not, but you have to think about it all from GRMM's eyes, what he was trying to show. It does make the sense given what he's been trying to teach us all.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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On 5/19/2019 at 10:28 AM, SeanF said:

My problem is that for six and a half seasons, the Show pretty much glorified cruelty.  Burning your enemies alive, feeding them to dogs, gouging their eyes out, feeding them their children in a pie - these all showed that you were a badass, not to be messed with.  The way to defeat cruel enemies was by being even more cruel than they are.

I know people who shunned it because of all that. It was just too hard on them.

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