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Plain, Simple Tailor

Who got the most screwed over

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On 6/11/2019 at 10:54 AM, Apoplexy said:

Yup.

Cersei standing in a tower, looking helpless, was just strange. 

Daenerys turned into a villain in 1/256th of a second, I am guessing for shock value. She was portrayed as a protagonist for 7.5 seasons.

Isnt that somewhat of a book adaptation though? She'll perceive herself as a protagonist in her own POV all the way through the books until readers can't defend her anymore with the burning of innocents. To me this TV POV trick is exactly like her book chapters.

I think Sansa was butchered in that they removed her love of songs and stories and how she wants to be in one -- the heart of the entire thing that makes it a work of meta fiction.

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It's a tie between Jaime and Varys for me. Daenerys's mishandling may have been the most... explosive, but given a few extra episodes they might have been able to make a semi-decent transition (not good, but acceptable and bare-minimum sensible writing). They botched something that had the seeds (her ruthlessness and black-and-white morality against people who actually posed a threat) by not allowing them to organically grow into actual capriciousness and madness against innocents.

With Jaime, however, they actively fucked over years of development of to make him the complete opposite of even his early-season self (even pre-development, Jaime besmirched his honour to save King's Landing), and Varys... they had years to figure out what to do with him as an alternative to Aegon (given they were so desperate to drop the Aegon plot), but instead, they had him sit around doing precisely nothing. Before going out like an imbecile that made Ned Stark look crafty (at least Ned tried to secure the muscle before trying a coup). All Varys did of use was teleport to Dorne and rope in the Sand Snakes and Olenna, because we all know they had a fucking impact on Dany's campaign.

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3 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

All Varys did of use was teleport to Dorne and rope in the Sand Snakes and Olenna, because we all know they had a fucking impact on Dany's campaign.

Let's not forget he had that conversation with the Red Woman across the sea that told him what was whispered to him from the fire when his balls were chopped off and burned.  BTW, you forgot to mention he has no cock.

Because if Varys is mentioned, it can only be to point out he has no cock.

*FACEPALM*

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2 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Let's not forget he had that conversation with the Red Woman across the sea that told him what was whispered to him from the fire when his balls were chopped off and burned.  BTW, you forgot to mention he has no cock.

Because if Varys is mentioned, it can only be to point out he has no cock.

*FACEPALM*

Oh, of course, how can we forget his use to the writers as a go-to cock joke recipient?

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On 6/11/2019 at 7:54 PM, Apoplexy said:

She was portrayed as a protagonist for 7.5 seasons.

Oh please, not again.

I saw in Daenerys what there was to see from early seasons on. The end was expected. Yes, the execution lacked a bit due to rushed and shorted telling, but the end in itself is plausible. It is nonsense to claim that Daenerys was sweet and shiny for 7 seasons. She obviously wasn't. Rewatch the show and WANT to see it.

 

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On 6/11/2019 at 6:59 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Basically what ... is saying is that the final human villain (not anti-villain, not the anti-hero antagonist, the villain) of the series should have been someone powerful that gives the protagonists a very hard time after letting them deplete themselves saving the world.

Hm, yes, IF the whole series were about "hero against big villain". I don't really see that aspect so much.

Each season 1-6 was really great in itself, not only because it builds up to some great climax. 

Daenerys snapping and burning the city was to be expected and is the peripety for this character, but the special thing about GoT was all the time that it is not about individual characters, but about the overall story. 

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Isnt that somewhat of a book adaptation though? She'll perceive herself as a protagonist in her own POV all the way through the books until readers can't defend her anymore with the burning of innocents. To me this TV POV trick is exactly like her book chapters.

Yeah, I completely agree, the source of Dany turning into a villain is the books. When I had finished reading all the books, my prediction (based on nothing much really) was that Jon ends up killing Dany and hence fulfils the Azor Ahai prophesy (Dany being Nissa Nissa, but a grey version). So I was expecting Dany to gradually get worse and worse. I just wasn't expecting it to happen as quickly and sloppily as it did.

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Sansa was butchered in that they removed her love of songs and stories and how she wants to be in one -- the heart of the entire thing that makes it a work of meta fiction

I agree, Sansa is completely different than her book counterpart. The bottomline of her arc seems that being feminine and showing empathy is a sign of weakness. They removed every bit of softness from Sansa and turned her into an icy, sassy character. It's like there is no middle ground for women, either you're the damsel in distress or you're the ice queen. 

But if you're looking at her exclusively from a show perspective, she is one of the few people who's end wasn't totally depressing. 

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12 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Oh please, not again.

I saw in Daenerys what there was to see from early seasons on. The end was expected. Yes, the execution lacked a bit due to rushed and shorted telling, but the end in itself is plausible. It is nonsense to claim that Daenerys was sweet and shiny for 7 seasons. She obviously wasn't. Rewatch the show and WANT to see it.

 

I am not saying Dany's end wasn't plausible. But she was not portrayed anywhere close to being as heartless as burning down a city of defenseless civilians. That is something that doesn't exist in the show, so no amount of rewatching is going to make me see what isn't there.

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8 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I am not saying Dany's end wasn't plausible.

At least that. We agree here.

8 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

But she was not portrayed anywhere close to being as heartless as burning down a city of defenseless civilians

Well, she again and again threatened to do so. Dothraki pep talk, threat to 13 and so on. No emotions for Daario when splitting up.

"Let it be fear". It was her decision to use fear to establish her power. She was always crazy power-hungy and always it was bend-of-die. Nothing new. Rewatch. See it. Not deny, but once for good try to want to see it.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

At least that. We agree here.

Well, she again and again threatened to do so. Dothraki pep talk, threat to 13 and so on. No emotions for Daario when splitting up.

"Let it be fear". It was her decision to use fear to establish her power. She was always crazy power-hungy and always it was bend-of-die. Nothing new. Rewatch. See it. Not deny, but once for good try to want to see it.

Threatening to do something is not the same as actually being crazy enough to do it. Not being emotionally attached to Daario doesn't make Dany crazy. It just means she wasn't that into him.

The whole let it be fear happened in season 8, which was out of the blue. I could see where Dany's character was headed because I have read the books. Had I been a casual viewer, the for shock value twist would have been even more jarring. The writing was just plain terrible this season.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Threatening to do something is not the same as actually being crazy enough to do it.

You cannot really be surprised if some power-hungty wannabe queen does exactly what she threatened to do for several years. Not really. 

She carried out a lot of other threats like 137 master crucified, one master live-fed to dragons or burning all Khals.

31 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I could see where Dany's character was headed because I have read the books

So we agree the ending is typical GRRM and seasons 1-6 are in sync and wonderfully done. 

31 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The writing was just plain terrible this season.

For me it was too rushed, too short and not enough good dialogues. But the story itself was OK. 

Yes, the story-telling was worse than before. We agree on that.

But people claiming they couldn't see it coming... that's nonsense. If you paid attention seasons 1-7 then you could know.

Edited by Kajjo

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4 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

You cannot really be surprised if some power-hungty wannabe queen does exactly what she threatened to do for several years. Not really. 

She carried out a lot of other threats like 137 master crucified, one master live-fed to dragons or burning all Khals.

Yes, you can be surprised. Said queen can be savvy and strategic, she doesn't have to be crazy. The masters and khals weren't civilians and weren't defenseless or innocent. I don't condone her actions, but they don't mean she was unstable or crazy. That's like saying Tywin and Robert were mad.

8 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

So we agree the ending is typical GRRM and seasons 1-6 are in sync and wonderfully done

I don't believe GRRM does anything for the sake of shock his Asoiaf books. Violence and tragedy have a purpose in the books. Yes, some of the violence and sex is gratuitous in the books as well, but nowhere to the same degree as the show. I don't have too many complaints about seasons 5 and 6, but I wouldn't say they wonderfully done. 1-4 were pretty good.

If things play out exactly like this in the books, I'll have the same criticisms for the books as well.

13 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

For me it was too rushed, too short and not enough good dialogues. But the story itself was OK. 

Yes, the story-telling was worse than before. We agree on that.

But people claiming they couldn't see it coming... that's nonsense. If you paid attention seasons 1-7 then you could know.

For me the overall story was terrible because of the poor conclusion. I can forgive a lot, just not a bad ending. 

Dany was always portrayed as the protagonist, despite of her morally questionable actions. And that was because almost every single character has done something morally questionable. Had I not read the books, I wouldn't have seen this coming either. 

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Posted (edited)

An overdone quote, but in the end it really was a tale "told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". (Almost) every time writers stepped off the Martin's (imperfect) script, they ended up with something nonsensical and stupid. And the last seasons gave impression of couple of raging morons who had overheard another person tell a good story and tried to re-tell it in their own words, but forgot half of it and understood even less. 

You can guess that the plotpoints themselves are probably from Martin (Daenerys becomes unhinged and ruthless and needs to be stopped; in desperate situation Stannis feels like he has no  other resort but to sacrifice his only daughter, probably to try to save the world; Tyrion is torn between loyalty to Daenerys and unexpectedly awoken feelings for his family; the Others have particular interest in Bran) but the set up is so dumb, rushed, or simply non-existent, that it's as if some sugar-high tween had read extremely abridged summary of War and Peace (in 500 words) and then tried to write their own version based off that. You can imagine how you COULD arrive to same broad points in intelligent and believable fashion, but instead you got THIS.

As to who got screwed the worst... 1. Daenerys, from impossible Mary Sue in first 7 season, who succeeded at everything and was somehow going to change the world for the better, but never specified HOW exactly, and nobody asked her, not even freakin Tyrion, to impossible Anti-Mary Sue who goes from ruthless defender of innocents into mass-murdering the innocents against her own damn interests, just for shits and giggles (she destroyed her own city, turned Westeros and half of her allies against her and gave Cersei enough time to almost get away). 

Dany's arc is like spending 7 seasons with season 1 Walter White and then in last couple of episodes he becomes last season Walter White. If that was the case, Breaking Bad would be pointless shit. The whole POINT of the story like this is to see gradual process where the character goes down the wrong path and gets darker and darker, as we can see and almost understand the decisions that led to this. 

2. Tyrion. 

Tyrion is not much of a fighter, has no magical abilities, and not that good a person (he does good things sometimes, but compared to Brienne or Davos he's certainly not that nice). The ONLY thing he has going for him is his brains, his intelligence. And that was taken away from him, making him into completely pointless character. 

3. Bran. Again, pointless to the end. 

Jon gets honorable mention, he was probably brought back to life as a kind of trolling from universe, because everything he touches he makes worse. 

Edited by Agnessa Schizoid

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Posted (edited)

I read the books after watching the show. I could tell she was going down a dangerous path from the show only, from when she told the khals they aren't fit to rule but she is and then burned them. Most of the things she's done since then have been self-serving. Most of the times she wants to take a much darker path but is talked down from it. Now her advisors are either dead or untrustworthy, of course she goes with her gut. "Take what is mine with FIRE AND BLOOD!" Now those people who chose to support Cersei can't turn against her as the people in Mereen did after she "saved" them. Like Daario told her, "butcher or be meat."

Edited by Mama Jo

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3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Said queen can be savvy and strategic, she doesn't have to be crazy.

The "crazy/mad" part is always over-emphasized here. Call it snapping and the rest ist probably "let it be fear", i.e. intention. Not real madness.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The masters and khals weren't civilians

Masters are civilians. They just didn't match her ideology.

She killed the Khals not only to escape but to capture their people and unite the army.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

but they don't mean she was unstable or crazy.

She was ruthless and prone to violence and drastic measures. That's the point which people don't want to see. Always the talk about "not crazy". Talk instead about violent, ruthless, threatening, bend-or-die.  Do me the favor.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Dany was always portrayed as the protagonist, despite of her morally questionable actions.

I don't think so. It was clear for me for quite a long time that she is ambigious.

Who can have ever thought that she will be the sweet and shiny queen in the end? It was clear that her interests and that of Westeros are opposite.

Nobody in Westeros waited for the continent to be invaded and the throne usurped by a foreign conquerer. No watcher of the show could really think Daenerys would do good to Westeros. Honestly, that was clear from season 1. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 3:41 PM, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I was never a Dany fan but I don’t know how anyone with straight face can argue that her heel turn in the last two episodes wasn’t one of the most horrendously botch events in tv history. I’m sorry but what she did to the Tarlys or her general harshness is execution style is not “foreshadowing” for her going pure mass murdering insane. 

I agree..I was not s big dany fan but she got wrecked...I was gutted for jon especially when arya got the NK cos of the green eyes BS,  and tyrion dumbed down to make sansa littlefinger.

 

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On 6/11/2019 at 6:07 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yeah.

Who didn't get screwed over.

I say that it all boils down to the three central characters of the entire story: Daenerys, Jon and Bran.

Daenerys and Bran suffer so much because the imbecile showrunners we had thought it was a good idea to castrate a fantasy show of its fantastical, more magical elements. Jon suffers so much because Jon is actually extremely intelligent and it is impossible to write characters smarter than you are.

Honestly, the R+L=J revelation did absolutely nothing for Jon. Why would such a big revelation only serve to tangentially drive Daenerys crazy? Why would she be unhappy with that? She logically has no reason to be unhappy or to want to force Jon to be silent. Why were they not married?

Bran is all the more egregious because those morons knew that Bran was the endgame king for how long? Four years at the least? Yet, they did nothing with him. Going from "I'm not Bran Stark anymore" to "I'll never be lord of anything" to "Why do you think I came here?"

Agree 100% . So much was put on jon heritage and it was such a let down..rheu shoulda been hitched but the plot line got screwed over.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

The "crazy/mad" part is always over-emphasized here. Call it snapping and the rest ist probably "let it be fear", i.e. intention. Not real madness.

If she snapped, no one could see that coming.

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Masters are civilians. They just didn't match her ideology.

She killed the Khals not only to escape but to capture their people and unite the army.

My full quote was masters and khals aren't civilians, innocents or defenseless, or something like that. I had meant the khals aren't exactly civilians and the masters aren't defenseless or innocents. Maybe I was unclear.

Point being, killing your enemies at war isn't the same as killing civilians. Again, I am not condoning Dany's actions. I'm saying there is a difference.

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

She was ruthless and prone to violence and drastic measures. That's the point which people don't want to see. Always the talk about "not crazy". Talk instead about violent, ruthless, threatening, bend-or-die.  Do me the favor.

You just said she snapped. If she snapped, then that's the reason she burnt down a city, it wasn't due to her 'ruthless nature'.

As for the being prone to violence, a lot of other characters were prone to violence. Yet to say they would be heartless/stupid enough to burn a city would be a stretch. 

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

I don't think so. It was clear for me for quite a long time that she is ambigious.

Who can have ever thought that she will be the sweet and shiny queen in the end? It was clear that her interests and that of Westeros are opposite.

Nobody in Westeros waited for the continent to be invaded and the throne usurped by a foreign conquerer. No watcher of the show could really think Daenerys would do good to Westeros. Honestly, that was clear from season 1. 

Dany was called 'Mhysa' in essos. You normally don't call an antagonist 'mother'. She certainly failed in Westeros, but no one could have known that and the show did not foreshadow it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

 

Nobody in Westeros waited for the continent to be invaded and the throne usurped by a foreign conquerer. No watcher of the show could really think Daenerys would do good to Westeros. Honestly, that was clear from season 1. 

Westeros would be a graveyard now if Daenerys had not landed there with her army, and marched North.

At the very least, she deserved to be remembered like Caesar "the evil that men do lives on so that the good is oft interred in their bones," rather than just a tyrant who was either evil because she refused to save her brother, or went mad at the last moment (depending on the argument that the show runners are using).

Edited by SeanF

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10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Westeros would be a graveyard now if Daenerys had not landed there with her army, and marched North.

If she hadn't come to Westeros, the wall would never have fallen. 7 Seasons (and thousands of years previous) and the NK and his army apparently had no way of getting over/through the wall. Not even around the wall. Apparently he needed a dragon. If Dany had never come, the dead would still be beyond the wall.

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