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Daendrew

Has GRRM stated what it means for a knight to be "worthy' to wield Dawn?

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  1. Must be a Dayne from the father or the mother.
  2. Must be male. 
  3. Must be brave.
  4. Must have reasonable skills with a sword.
  5. Good reputation and respected.

Best choices include fAegon and Darkstar.  Darkstar is not nice but what warrior is.  These two are the best choices to me. 

Jaime doesn't meet any of the criteria, except having testicles.  Jon could be a Dayne, he is male, with reasonable sword skills.  But Jon is not respectable and he is an oathbreaker.  I'm sure the lord of the morning can't be an ice zombie.  Loras is not a Dayne. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 9:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

Pretty sure Darkstar is just going to take Dawn, no matter what the absent Lord of Starfall thinks of it. Edric is just a boy, and somewhere in the Riverlands, but Dawn is there for the taking. And Darkstar is Darkstar.

Damn, I hate to be on the opposite side of the fence from you...but... lol

Yes, I can see Darkstar taking the sword, but I don't see him as worthy.  I think Martin is setting Brienne up as the Just Maid, the Perfect Knight; the one who's deeds are worthy of honor. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Martin say that the one who claims the sword didn't have to be a Dayne, they just had to be worthy?

If this a magic sword we're talking about; could it be that someone can only claim the sword if they are worthy?

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12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

What I guess you mean is that there are no Daynes around with the prowess to wield it, so we might as well give it to Gerold, who's only qualification is that he is a total piece of shite, with the demonstrated ability to murder little girls with poisoned blades.  Oh yeah, and Arianne thinks he's kinda hot.

Lord Edric is not at Starfall. He is not going to make that decision.

12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

However, the possibility exists that one can marry into House Dayne, or otherwise become a knight of House Dayne by other methods being born a "Dayne".  The Dornish, after all, have different customs.  And Alyria Dayne is short one fiancée.

We have no evidence that a Dayne by marriage ever became the Sword of the Morning. And by the way - Edric's widowed mother might still be around, too. From what we know Edric's father was the previous Lord Dayne of Starfall, not his mother.

12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, if it is going to be taken by force, then Gerold's last name is obviously irrelevant.  But of course it is probably irrelevant anyway, as he does not come from the right House Dayne.

He is a Dayne. And the point of his character might be to eventually wield that particular blade.

12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

And if Starfall is now unguarded, it may also be that Dawn is not there any more.  How many years and books has it been since GRRM told us Dawn was at Starfall?

Until we know that it is not at Starfall I expect it to be there.

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20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Damn, I hate to be on the opposite side of the fence from you...but... lol

Yes, I can see Darkstar taking the sword, but I don't see him as worthy.  I think Martin is setting Brienne up as the Just Maid, the Perfect Knight; the one who's deeds are worthy of honor. 

Brienne already has a magical sword of her own - Oathkeeper. She doesn't need Dawn, and there isn't really any indication that she would ever get that particular sword.

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Martin say that the one who claims the sword didn't have to be a Dayne, they just had to be worthy?

If this a magic sword we're talking about; could it be that someone can only claim the sword if they are worthy?

All the Swords of the Morning we know up to that point where Daynes. Until such a time as that changes I don't assume that anyone can become a Sword of the Morning.

And considering that Ned could take Dawn out of Arthur's dead hands to return it to Starfall it is quite clear that everybody can claim that sword.

The idea that Dawn is a special blade in a stone or protected by some magic from unworthy hands is really over the top and completely unsubstatiated by the text at this point.

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This story would really have made more sense if Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother, lining him up to wield Dawn - Lightbringer - one day as Azor Ahai reborn.

Now we have a seemingly meaningless Dawn, and a seemingly meaningless extra Targ in Jon.

Weird.

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5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This story would really have made more sense if Ashara Dayne was Jon’s mother, lining him up to wield Dawn - Lightbringer - one day as Azor Ahai reborn.

Now we have a seemingly meaningless Dawn, and a seemingly meaningless extra Targ in Jon.

Weird.

There isn't really any reason to assume Dawn was ever supposed to be particularly important. It is the prop given to a tertiary, long-dead background character.

Even if it were the Lightbringer of the historical or mythological Azor Ahai - it is quite clear that his sword is not going to help a new hero, because the new hero hasn't sacrificed anything to use it. This isn't a story where people conveniently inherit powerful artificats from the past to use them. If they want magical things they have to make them themselves.

In that sense, chances are pretty low that Dawn is ever going to play an important role in the story - and this was always the case.

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We don't even know if Dawn is effective against the white walkers.  I feel like it will have significance.  Maybe Darkstar uses it against the Lannisters and puts an end to Tywin's line.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Lord Edric is not at Starfall. He is not going to make that decision.

It does not matter who would ordinarily make the decision.  If your theory was that the sword will be taken by brute force (which I thought it was), then Gerold's last name is irrelevant.  Maybe Obarra will take it, and give it to Doran, who will give it to Hotah.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no evidence that a Dayne by marriage ever became the Sword of the Morning.

Well, we kinda do.  The "Sword of the Morning" is supposedly chosen based on merit, and nepotism is rather at odds with the idea of merit-based hiring.  It helps reduce the tension if we give ourselves more options in deciding who qualifies as a "Knight of House Dayne".

You're the one making assumptions. I merely pointed out a possibility patrilinear naming customs might not apply to the Dornish.  "You can't prove that patrilinear naming customs don't apply, therefore they do apply" is an argument from ignorance.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And by the way - Edric's widowed mother might still be around, too.

She might be.  But she is not the Lord/Lady of Starfall.  Edric is the Lord of Starfall.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we know Edric's father was the previous Lord Dayne of Starfall, not his mother.

Right.  Which implies she is merely the Lord's widow and not the reigning Lord/Lady who was the eldest child of the previous Lord.  Which is why Edric is Lord of Starfall.  And of course, we have no evidence she is alive either.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Until we know that it is not at Starfall I expect it to be there.

Okay.

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11 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

It does not matter who would ordinarily make the decision.  If your theory was that the sword will be taken by brute force (which I thought it was), then Gerold's last name is irrelevant.  Maybe Obarra will take it, and give it to Doran, who will give it to Hotah.

That wasn't the idea. The idea just was that Gerold Dayne would take it - and not be given it by some child lord who isn't even there. And Gerold Dayne is, I think, a candidate to take because he happens to be a Dayne.

11 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, we kinda do.  The "Sword of the Morning" is supposedly chosen based on merit, and nepotism is rather at odds with the idea of merit-based hiring.  It helps reduce the tension if we give ourselves more options in deciding who qualifies as a "Knight of House Dayne".

Why should we? All Swords of the Morning we have heard of were Daynes - and two of them, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Davos Dayne, are confirmed to have been Daynes by birth.

What we know about male consorts in Dorne does not necessarily imply that they take the names of their wives.

At this point it seems clear that Dawn only goes to qualified men of House Dayne, not to qualified men from other bloodlines.

11 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

She might be.  But she is not the Lord/Lady of Starfall.  Edric is the Lord of Starfall.

Who cares? The point I'm making is that there are two women who might play important roles at Starfall who might be inclined to give Ser Gerold Dayne the sword Dawn. Hell, both Allyria and Edric's hypothetical mother could actually end up marrying Darkstar to consolidate their hold over Starfall (Edric likely is presumed dead).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That wasn't the idea. The idea just was that Gerold Dayne would take it - and not be given it by some child lord who isn't even there. And Gerold Dayne is, I think, a candidate to take because he happens to be a Dayne.

Right.  So his last name is irrelevant.  He will get it because he took it, and he will take it because he wants it.  Unless your theory is the reason that he wants it is because his last name is Dayne.  

But from what he said to Myrcella, it certainly does not sound like he wants it … or at least, he does not want whatever it symbolically represents.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should we? All Swords of the Morning we have heard of were Daynes - and two of them, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Davos Dayne, are confirmed to have been Daynes by birth.

A sample size of two.  If you turn out to be wrong, you will not be able to say that GRRM lied to you.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

What we know about male consorts in Dorne does not necessarily imply that they take the names of their wives.

Just admit we don't know.   Maybe they do.  Maybe they don't.  Since we don't know, you cannot assume that Darkstar is the only option.  Hell, even if one cannot marry into House Dayne, there still could be a dozen other options we don't know about.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point it seems clear that Dawn only goes to qualified men of House Dayne, not to qualified men from other bloodlines.

Why is that clear?  Do you have an actual argument other than TWO examples?  

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Who cares? The point I'm making is that there are two women who might play important roles at Starfall who might be inclined to give Ser Gerold Dayne the sword Dawn. Hell, both Allyria and Edric's hypothetical mother could actually end up marrying Darkstar to consolidate their hold over Starfall (Edric likely is presumed dead).

Anything can happen if you speculate it.  But you're giving no reason for this to happen.

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right.  So his last name is irrelevant.  He will get it because he took it, and he will take it because he wants it.  Unless your theory is the reason that he wants it is because his last name is Dayne.  

Sure, the fact that he is a Dayne is obviously one of my main reasons.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

But from what he said to Myrcella, it certainly does not sound like he wants it … or at least, he does not want whatever it symbolically represents.

I doubt he cares what it 'symbolically represents'. In fact, Darkstar taking will like help to give the sword a darker reputation, one better fitting with a book as dark as TWoW.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

A sample size of two.  If you turn out to be wrong, you will not be able to say that GRRM lied to you.

I'd never do something as ridiculous as that.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Just admit we don't know.   Maybe they do.  Maybe they don't.  Since we don't know, you cannot assume that Darkstar is the only option.  Hell, even if one cannot marry into House Dayne, there still could be a dozen other options we don't know about.

We do know some Dornish consort - for instance, the above mentioned Ser Davos Dayne, third consort of Nymeria, who was not called Martell. The same goes for Lord Uller, Nymeria's second consort.

Where did I say Darkstar was the only option? I just said that I think Darkstar is the most likeliest future wielder of Dawn assuming anyone is going to wield the sword in the next couple of books (which I don't think is particularly likely, anyway).

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Why is that clear?  Do you have an actual argument other than TWO examples?  

If I qualify my statement by using the phrase 'AT THIS POINT' I don't really need more than the two examples we have, do I?

If you want to make a case that anybody and their grandmother can become a Sword of the Morning then you are the one who has to make a case for that. All I do here is point out that there is no reason to believe any 'Dayne by marriage' is likely to wield the sword on the basis of the textual evidence we have at this point.

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On 8/8/2019 at 1:56 PM, Daendrew said:

Has GRRM stated what it means for a knight to be "worthy' to wield Dawn?

No.  I don't believe GRRM has ever explained what it means for a knight to be worthy to wield Dawn.  Apparently he plans to reveal that in the upcoming books.

All that we know is that the Daynes don't simply pass possession of the sword as a hereditary artifact from one family lord to the next generation of his family and that it has been thousands of years since the original lord followed a fallen star to where it landed on earth and forged the sword for the heart of the meteorite he found.   "Worthy" implies that a Sword of the Morning must have martial abilities and noble character, but we don't know that for certain.

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On 8/16/2019 at 7:49 AM, Lord Varys said:

Lord Edric is not at Starfall. He is not going to make that decision.

We don't know precisely where Edric is, or who is currently at Starfall. We know he was previously with the Brotherhood Without Banners under Beric, but is not with them now that Lady Stoneheart is leading them. Anguy is also missing, and as he's from the Dornish marches of the Stormlands like Beric, that does suggest a possible direction for them both to be heading after leaving Stoneheart's group.

On 8/16/2019 at 8:12 AM, Lord Varys said:

There isn't really any reason to assume Dawn was ever supposed to be particularly important. It is the prop given to a tertiary, long-dead background character.

Even if it were the Lightbringer of the historical or mythological Azor Ahai - it is quite clear that his sword is not going to help a new hero, because the new hero hasn't sacrificed anything to use it. This isn't a story where people conveniently inherit powerful artificats from the past to use them. If they want magical things they have to make them themselves.

In that sense, chances are pretty low that Dawn is ever going to play an important role in the story - and this was always the case.

The name "Dawn" seems significant to me in contrast to the Long Night, as does the "Sword of the Morning" title. The sword is supposed to be ancient, as was the Long Night. It's supposed to be made from a falling star, and we know that a comet is tied into some Azor Ahai prophecy. It doesn't sound like Lightbringer, as Beric's flaming sword fits that description better. But of the non-mythical swords in this series, it does seem to stand out as the most unusual and likely to be tied into the larger mythology.

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7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We don't know precisely where Edric is, or who is currently at Starfall. We know he was previously with the Brotherhood Without Banners under Beric, but is not with them now that Lady Stoneheart is leading them. Anguy is also missing, and as he's from the Dornish marches of the Stormlands like Beric, that does suggest a possible direction for them both to be heading after leaving Stoneheart's group.

The appendix of AFfC made it appear as if the group Edric was now with is simply another branch of the Brotherhood Without Banners. That's what I go with until such a time as Edric shows up (elsewhere).

But, frankly, even if the boy returned back home - he is still a minor and would neither rule Starfall in his own right nor bestow the sword Dawn on anyone. It wouldn't be his call.

7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The name "Dawn" seems significant to me in contrast to the Long Night, as does the "Sword of the Morning" title. The sword is supposed to be ancient, as was the Long Night. It's supposed to be made from a falling star, and we know that a comet is tied into some Azor Ahai prophecy. It doesn't sound like Lightbringer, as Beric's flaming sword fits that description better. But of the non-mythical swords in this series, it does seem to stand out as the most unusual and likely to be tied into the larger mythology.

Actually, the comet is a herald of the new hero/primised prince, it never had anything to do with historical/mythological Azor Ahai.

That aside, I never said Dawn and the Sword of the Morning didn't have anything to do with the hero of the past. Quite the contrary. I merely pointed out that the sword Dawn isn't set up as an important prop for the new hero, just as the Daynes as such are not set up to be main heroes or protagonists of the story.

In fact, even the historical/mythological Azor Ahai (or the Last Hero, if they are identical) is not particularly important for the plot of the series. If he were, we would know much more about this character than we do now, and he would be a more central figure in the overall narrative.

Instead both he and all the prophecy stuff referring to the new hero is just vague background stuff that's not exactly laid out in detail - making it very likely this is just background world-building, nothing that's of crucial importance.

It might turn out that people realize that Dawn was the original Lightbringer - but that's not going to help anyone to advance the plot.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, the comet is a herald of the new hero/primised prince, it never had anything to do with historical/mythological Azor Ahai.

Melisandre seems to disagree:

Quote

Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.

She is blurring the difference between the original Azor Ahai and the "reborn" one, but she still calls his sword Lightbringer like the old one.

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1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Melisandre seems to disagree:

She is blurring the difference between the original Azor Ahai and the "reborn" one, but she still calls his sword Lightbringer like the old one.

Melisandre is rather erratic and confused. She also thinks she can fulfill the prophecy by giving Stannis not one but two fake Lightbringers.

It is quite clear that the comet is mentioned in the promised prince prophecy and heralding the coming of that guy. Melisandre thinks that, too.

Mythological Azor Ahai is never associated with a comet.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Melisandre is rather erratic and confused. She also thinks she can fulfill the prophecy by giving Stannis not one but two fake Lightbringers.

It is quite clear that the comet is mentioned in the promised prince prophecy and heralding the coming of that guy. Melisandre thinks that, too.

Mythological Azor Ahai is never associated with a comet.

Yes he/she is- "when the stars bleed"

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5 minutes ago, redriver said:

Yes he/she is- "when the stars bleed"

The new one, not the old guy.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

The new one, not the old guy.

Mythological AA is the new guy?You may need to explain yourself ser.And if you're referring to Stannis he is very much associated with a comet since there's one very visible in the sky all the way through ACOK.

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7 minutes ago, redriver said:

Mythological AA is the new guy?You may need to explain yourself ser.And if you're referring to Stannis he is very much associated with a comet since there's one very visible in the sky all the way through ACOK.

I said that mythological Azor Ahai - the one the new one is supposed to be a reincarnation of - is not associated with a comet, and therefore Dawn being made from a meteor is not a parallel to the reborn Azor Ahai (if he or she exist) who is the only one who is associated with a comet.

And that in the sense that the comet heralds the coming of that person. It has nothing to do with Lightbringer.

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