Which Tyler Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Also, someone made this, not an original comparison, but well put together.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cjNxpLasM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 https://mobile.twitter.com/DomWalsh13/status/1169986164213866497? I've seen the "can't the UK, as a member of the EU, veto it's own extension request" take on here quite a lot recently. The answer is no - or, at least, we can't "veto" it in the same way another member state can. Short thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted September 7, 2019 Author Share Posted September 7, 2019 4 hours ago, Which Tyler said: https://mobile.twitter.com/DomWalsh13/status/1169986164213866497? I've seen the "can't the UK, as a member of the EU, veto it's own extension request" take on here quite a lot recently. The answer is no - or, at least, we can't "veto" it in the same way another member state can. Short thread... So in other words, the Benn Bill is really a thing of beauty that has put Johnson on a leash wrt no-deal, and parliament is actually really in charge now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: So in other words, the Benn Bill is really a thing of beauty that has put Johnson on a leash wrt no-deal, and parliament is actually really in charge now. As far as I can tell, BJ's only options are: Win a general election before October 18, and remove the Benn bill from law. Brings back May's deal, and gets it passed between October 9 and October 18 He successfully negotiated a new deal and gets it passed by October 18 He puts the request in to the EU* Break the law and face prison (would make him the first British pm to be imprisoned) alongside a possible GNU Resign and face a GNU Lose a VOTC and face a GNU *He COULD request the extension and try to run down the next 3 months... Running a minority government... Having said he'd rather be dead in a ditch than do that... He COULD request the extension, and convince France / Austria / Whoever to veto it - which has failed once when France and Italy were much more militant, and our political picture was VERY different. PM Johnson is a dead man walking, it just remains to be seen if, for once, he has the strength of his alleged convictions. Meanwhile, Led by Do keys have been at it again... https://mobile.twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1169898571149139968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 You must be kidding. He actually said ‘Titanic success’? Is Trump even that stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Amber Rudd has quit, due to the expulsion of loyal Tories. According to BBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 Good for Amber Rudd!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophelia Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said: Amber Rudd has quit, due to the expulsion of loyal Tories. According to BBC BBC misses out the more important bit where she says she has quit because she became convinced that Boris wasn't trying to get a deal with the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 33 minutes ago, Sophelia said: BBC misses out the more important bit where she says she has quit because she became convinced that Boris wasn't trying to get a deal with the EU. Depends when you read the BBC article, it absolutely said that when I found it, and of course the whole letter. Of course, when doing a breaking article, they'll publish a headline to get it out there, and edit in sentences piecemeal until a staffer can write it up properly - like many of my posts Equally, Rudd's tweet mentioned that she's quitting due to treatment of the rebels, not BJ's EU negotiations. I'm not going to blame anyone for writing that bit before having read the whole letter. There must be other moderate tories aghast at what's happened to their party. How many will have the courage of their conditions, and how many will keep their head down and support their team? But that's still more moderate tories with a backbone than moderate republicans. I wonder if that's why Banon's playbook isn't working as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, Leap said: That there have even been what, 23? Tories leaving the party because of Brexit is hugely encouraging. I don't have a lot of good things to say about any of these people, but it is an incredible relief to see that the far right has only partially succeeded in corrupting the Conservatives, where it seems to have run rampant over the Republican party. 21 + Rudd + Johnson + Soubrey, Allen, Boles are all still independent, couple of others who joined Lin dem IIRC - and I wonder if theyl set up a RumpTory party (plenty of big names, and there will be plenty of party members, and probably enough donors who don't want to associate with the rightwards lurch, and terrible bad manners of BJ's reign). My gut says that if they do form a new party, providing a new home for moderate tories, that number would double within a week, and probably way more over time, essentially leaving BJ with the ERG, and virtually no-one else. There are plenty of moderate tories, still putting their careers first, who might change their minds with a new natural home. A full-on schism. If the conservative party really are this determined to become the Brexit party without Farage - that leaves tonnes of space for a centre-right political party. The obvious alternative is for most of them to join the LibDems, who would be rightly worried about accepting too many of them; but that wouldn't provide a home for other Tories feeling unrepresented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophelia Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 30 minutes ago, Which Tyler said: Depends when you read the BBC article, it absolutely said that when I found it, and of course the whole letter. Of course, when doing a breaking article, they'll publish a headline to get it out there, and edit in sentences piecemeal until a staffer can write it up properly - like many of my posts Equally, Rudd's tweet mentioned that she's quitting due to treatment of the rebels, not BJ's EU negotiations. I'm not going to blame anyone for writing that bit before having read the whole letter. Fair enough. I read it when it was breaking, but it seemed to be a long time after all the details had been reported and commented on twitter (mind you, they're often very slow, I guess because they really have to check carefully that it's not fake news). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Sophelia said: BBC misses out the more important bit where she says she has quit because she became convinced that Boris wasn't trying to get a deal with the EU. Well there is this idea that Boris Johnson's plan is to make the UK into a tax haven after a no-deal Brexit. That he is in fact beholden to certain financial interests that would see this as a great economic success in order not just to cripple whatever is left of the British welfare state, but also to undermine any social program within the EU, since EU member states would also have to consider slashing government spending to lower taxes in order to compete with a very large neo-liberal economy on their doorstep. The first time I heard this theory I laughed. I am absolutely not laughing anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 51 minutes ago, Which Tyler said: 21 + Rudd + Johnson + Soubrey, Allen, Boles are all still independent, couple of others who joined Lin dem IIRC - and I wonder if theyl set up a RumpTory party (plenty of big names, and there will be plenty of party members, and probably enough donors who don't want to associate with the rightwards lurch, and terrible bad manners of BJ's reign). My gut says that if they do form a new party, providing a new home for moderate tories, that number would double within a week, and probably way more over time, essentially leaving BJ with the ERG, and virtually no-one else. There are plenty of moderate tories, still putting their careers first, who might change their minds with a new natural home. A full-on schism. If the conservative party really are this determined to become the Brexit party without Farage - that leaves tonnes of space for a centre-right political party. The obvious alternative is for most of them to join the LibDems, who would be rightly worried about accepting too many of them; but that wouldn't provide a home for other Tories feeling unrepresented. If Labour maintain their cohesion despite everything and the Conservatives fly apart, that really would be something. I don't think the Conservative Party will let things get that far though, particularly the 1922 committee who will be looking at events aghast. One of their strengths has been holding together a differing number of right-wing viewpoints together in a single party under a relatively broad church. They've done that through a lot of ways, including ensuring the party is conservative only really in economics and general governance, not social issues. The Tories can rightly claim to have actually shown themselves to be more socially progressive than Labour or New Labour, having legalised gay marriage, had two female leaders and PMs and resisted any attempt by occasional MPs to stir up issues such as the death penalty or abortion rights. Cummings suggesting they "weaponise" such issues will have sent alarm bells ringing through the party. The problem the Tories face is that they have the now-pretty-openly centre to just-right-of-centre LibDems to attract the moderate wing of the Conservative Party and the further-right Brexit Party (and now the pretty much far-right UKIP) to attract the harder edge of the party, which makes maintaining the party's cohesion more difficult. Literally a few years ago there was nowhere else for disaffected Conservatives to go, whilst now they have a surfeit of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 12 hours ago, Which Tyler said: Break the law and face prison (would make him the first British pm to be imprisoned) alongside a possible GNU It'd take a bit to get to that stage. Basically, here's the scenario where Boris goes to jail: Act passes. Boris ignores it. Court injunction forces Boris to obey Act. Boris ignores it. Court finds Boris guilty of contempt of court. The Court opts to sentence him to prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 Am I the only one who thinks of Rudd and her resignation as politically insignificant, apart from her resignation letter. She was not get reelected to parliament one way or another. She is holding a seat with a very, very marginal majority. Her showing to be very flexible with her fierce stand on no deal prior to her resignation (she joined Johnson cabinet, and moving on from being pro remain, to being somewhat ok with no-deal), I don't think that would have ended well with her constituency. The cynic within me thinks she is desperately trying to position herself for an upcoming GE, and felt it's better to get some distance between herself and Johnson - and the Titanic success of his premiership. Not that it's gonna save her. While I felt some degree of sympathy towards Jo Johnson not wanting to go against his brother, I fail to see any such mitigating factor for Rudd. And if he had stayed on, I don't think Rudd would have found the courage on her own to resign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Which Tyler Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 23 hours ago, Which Tyler said: Hopefully, the media having noticed and published (and us spreading) this means that it won't happen; but... Anyone protesting today - stay safe. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-protests-london-riots-unrest-far-right-boris-johnson-no-deal-a9095161.html Brexit: Far-right groups threaten to riot at London protests as Boris Johnson warned over language ‘It’s time to f*** s*** up,’ extremists threaten after parliament moves to block no-deal Brexit Apparently, if still happen - though I haven't found any media coverage yet, so only have a rather biased Twitter feed's word on it. https://mobile.twitter.com/RemainAlliance/status/1170348053317988352? Looks pretty low key compared to what that Independent article was suggesting - hopefully due to being busted in the media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 7 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said: It'd take a bit to get to that stage. Basically, here's the scenario where Boris goes to jail: Act passes. Boris ignores it. Court injunction forces Boris to obey Act. Boris ignores it. Court finds Boris guilty of contempt of court. The Court opts to sentence him to prison. This. Remember this is an express game of delay, and the government will appeal any Divisional Court order to the Supreme Court, seeking a stay of its effect. The courts will likely grant such a stay, at least while the appeal is considered. To obtain a final order in the UK courts after Oct. 18-19th before Oct. 31 will place an unprecedented pressure on the judicial system. Although, if the Prime Minister openly announces his intention to disobey the Benn Act (instead of just deniable leaks to newspapers), legal action may be possible before the deadline elapses. What I understood from BoJo's announcement of Friday (albeit now a life time ago) was that he would now try to reach a deal with the EU. That is what Alistair (voice of sanity) Burt recommends today in the Guardian. So all this briefing in the Times/Telegraph about the Government's plans to defy the Benn Act is just bizarre. Boris has two viable choices: get a deal and sell it to Parliament. If he thinks the deal he has gotten is not in the national interest, get the extension (blaming Parliament) and then have an election seeking a mandate for No-Deal. The decisions made by this government will be taught in strategy classes around the world as an example of how-not-to-do-it. Boris could have pacified the Tory rebels in July through private assurances that his public posturing for No-Deal was in order to get the best possible deal with the EU. He could have divided his enemies by proposing a non-binding resolution in favour of a Deal. He has allowed Parliament to bind his hands without doing much of anything to avert it. And if he wanted a general election so badly, why not just call for one in July, shortly after winning? Corbyn would have agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 8 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said: It'd take a bit to get to that stage. Basically, here's the scenario where Boris goes to jail: Act passes. Boris ignores it. Court injunction forces Boris to obey Act. Boris ignores it. Court finds Boris guilty of contempt of court. The Court opts to sentence him to prison. Bah, in your dreams - courts never send politicians to jail for contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 18 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Bah, in your dreams - courts never send politicians to jail for contempt. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/28/Former-home-secretary-found-guilty-of-contempt-of-court-in-historic-ruling/7038743832000/ Not jailed, but certainly held in contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/28/Former-home-secretary-found-guilty-of-contempt-of-court-in-historic-ruling/7038743832000/ Not jailed, but certainly held in contempt. That’s my point! They might find them in contempt, but they won’t jail them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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