UK Politics: The Malice in the Chalice held by the Pfeffel with the Piffle is the Brexit that is true.

[Werthead]

17 minutes ago, Ordos said:

OK. But honestly if you are pro leave, when complaining about the backstop, what would you say to the face of a member of Sinn Fein (the political wing of the IRA)? I'm not accusing you, I'm just asking what an average person who voted leave would say.

Also I see nothing wrong with fulfilling some referendum promises by the deadline and others later by pointing out the complexity of the issues. "Let me introduce you to this IRA terrorist and this Loyalist paramilitary! Tell them we need a hard border!"

Pro-Leavers do not believe there will be a problem, or if there is it will be the fault of the EU and the Republic of Ireland, somehow.

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

I don't think even Johnson would do that, although you never know.

The last few years have really disabused me of any confidence that norms, conventions and assumptions of good faith are effective safeguards. 

[mormont]

 

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The last few years have really disabused me of any confidence that norms, conventions and assumptions of good faith are effective safeguards. 

In the unlikely event that Johnson asks the Queen not to assent to a bill passed by the House, Liz will tell him politely to piss off. For, ironically, the same reasons she was never going to refuse his prorogation. Liz cares only for preserving her family's current position, and that is achieved by not rocking the constitutional boat, in any way. She understands that she is a rubber stamp and to be anything else would be a risk. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

IMO We need to get an extension, and get a 2nd referendum, before heading for a GE. 

As an outside I could have told you this six months ago. A second referendum is really your only option, and you need to crack down on the BoJos and Farages of the world who are flat out lying to the clueless public.

5 hours ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

I really hope his making those 21 lose the whip comes back to bite him in the ass.

While I’m not at all in favour of a Corbyn led government I’m not in favour of a Boris led one either.

Sounds like someone misses May. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

12 hours ago, ants said:

Um, in the article he said he voted "Yes" in the referendum.  

Curious, where did you read that? I've now read the article two times over again, and I still can't see it.

[karaddin]

47 minutes ago, mormont said:

 

In the unlikely event that Johnson asks the Queen not to assent to a bill passed by the House, Liz will tell him politely to piss off. For, ironically, the same reasons she was never going to refuse his prorogation. Liz cares only for preserving her family's current position, and that is achieved by not rocking the constitutional boat, in any way. She understands that she is a rubber stamp and to be anything else would be a risk. 

Yeah, I've got much more faith that it will fail due to this reason if he did try it than I do that he wouldn't try it. And the extreme likelihood that it would fail is the best reason for why he wouldn't do it - he wouldn't fear a backlash if he thought it would work, but he won't do it if he has no belief it would pay off.

[Jen'ari]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Sounds like someone misses May. 

 Hell no! (maybe Cameron a bit at this point)

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

As an outside I could have told you this six months ago. A second referendum is really your only option, and you need to crack down on the BoJos and Farages of the world who are flat out lying to the clueless public.

Many of us have been saying it for 3 years.

 

It's why I campaign for a revote, even though I want to revoke

[A Horse Named Stranger]

51 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

 Hell no! (maybe Cameron a bit at this point)

You mean the David Cameron, whose silly idea it was to take a look into Pandora's box, and then just ran when he saw what he unleashed? This entire shitshow is a direct result from his silly referendum.

[Maithanet]

15 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You mean the David Cameron, whose silly idea it was to take a look into Pandora's box, and then just ran when he saw what he unleashed? This entire shitshow is a direct result from his silly referendum.

As an outsider, I have a lot more sympathy for May, who failed at an impossible job, than Cameron, who could have easily avoided this entire mess. 

[Werthead]

I wonder if any sitting Prime Minister or government has gone from a majority of 1 to a minority of 44 in just 24 hours before, outside of an election. I can't imagine a situation where that may have occurred in the past.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

if we do have Boris's election on Oct the 15th?  would that make him the shortest serving PM ever?

[Raja]

I think if I have to listen to Bill Cash again I might just go jump in front of a train

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, Pebble thats Stubby said:

if we do have Boris's election on Oct the 15th?  would that make him the shortest serving PM ever?

You'd have a bunch of foolish opposition leaders. You want to wait a bit with the election, so that the new car smell has worn off. Wear down Johnson and his gang of charlatans and show 'em up a bit longer. A damaged Johnson that had to walk back on his October 31st exit date is a much election target, than one that can still waffle on about the great talks and do or die Brexit on Halloween. Him and Cummings the uncunning want to goad Corbyn and Labour into an early election.

[dornishpen]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Pro-Leavers do not believe there will be a problem, or if there is it will be the fault of the EU and the Republic of Ireland, somehow.

Wouldn't the UK have to set up immigration control on that border so the people who have free movement into Ireland don't also have free movement into the UK? Wasn't immigration one of the big issues for leavers? Also I keep seeing leavers claim a hard Brexit won't violate the Good Friday agreement, however if partisans believe it violates the spirit of the agreement and end the ceasefire does that really matter? I'm pretty sure if the IRA starts terrorist activities again*, that the UDA and UVF will as well and also your army would return.

*Yes I know some splinter IRA groups never stopped, but the main IRA did.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

 Hell no! (maybe Cameron a bit at this point)

You must be a broken lover if you’re willing to crawl back to the man who did this to you in the first place.

43 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Many of us have been saying it for 3 years.

 

It's why I campaign for a revote, even though I want to revoke

Looks like we’ve got a one upper in our midst.  

[Zorral]

The UK and Johnson are the only entities that can one-up the USA and the Skeksie-in-Chief for sheer bedbug nutzozilla!

"Big girl's blouse!"  "Hoooooooooooooooooooooordddddda!"

[Jen'ari]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You mean the David Cameron, whose silly idea it was to take a look into Pandora's box, and then just ran when he saw what he unleashed? This entire shitshow is a direct result from his silly referendum.

 

48 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You must be a broken lover if you’re willing to crawl back to the man who did this to you in the first place.

Looks like we’ve got a one upper in our midst.  

Don’t get me wrong I think his calling of the referendum was an incredibly stupid move, one he put in the Tory manifesto not expecting to win a majority and having to drop.

The preceding years from 2010-2015/6 though he wasn’t a terrible PM overall, he did a better job than May over his tenure (except for the referendum) and while he royally fucked up there he also passed the law that let me marry my wife so perhaps I do cut him too much slack.

[williamjm]

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

It occurs that there is now a viable path to Ref3. If Johnson loses the bill today, he then can't call an election under the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act because he can't get the support. He may not be able to then call an election under a bill because he can't get a simple majority, and AFAIK the government can't call a vote of no confidence in itself.

He could resign, but that would just trigger a renewed leadership challenge which the rest of Parliament doesn't need to give two shits about, and the new leader would face some of the same obstacles.

The only way out of the mess might be to call a new referendum. That would just require a simple majority, and if Boris convinced the bulk of the Tory Party to agree to it, he might get away with just bringing on board the Lib Dems, CUK and maybe some of the SNP. There's also plenty of Labour MPs who'd vote for it as well.

No-one's really talking about it at the moment, but at some point that may emerge as the only way out of the mess.

Another thought I had would be whether the mass expulsion could make some sort of Anti-Brexit Unity Government more likely if Boris does lose a no-confidence vote. MPs who have been thrown out of their Party might be more inclined to back that than if they were still Tory MPs. It still seems unlikely, it would require a lot of MPs to make compromises to come up with some Brexit policy they could agree on (whether that was a new referendum or something else) and would require Corbyn not to put himself forward as the temporary PM since the ex-Tories would never back him and I'm not sure either of those things are likely.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Look at what's risen from its grave. The Withdrawal Agreement. Kinnock'S amendment apparently passed.