Heresy 228 and one over the eight

[Lady Dyanna]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

We never told George that he should only answer questions within that framework. The questions were little different than what he gets from fans at cons and in emails back in the day, so essentially are at that level save they're for an official project, and so his responses indicate what is true or what he intends to indicate as true in that context. If you asked George at a con, "Did Lyanna tilt at rings?" and he said, "Yes", what would you make of that? If you are a reader who only trusts what is on the written page, then disregard it. If you are willing to accept the author's extra-textual commentaries, then it's reasonable to believe that he confirmed something, presumably in part because he doesn't think it's that big of a revelation.

For this project, he was given questions and quotes from the text and asked if they were okay or not, or if he could clarify. He would say yes or no, he would say "probably" or "don't know", he'd clarify, or even say something like "no details" to some questions where he has an answer but doesn't want to share it.

Then it certainly seems to me as if his meticulous behavior is continuing and he is allowing the app to reflect that. I also would not put it past GRRM to be holding information back from even his closest friends. Especially since his own wife has publicly admitted that he has not shared all of his information with her. I guess what I’m saying, is that If you can’t share information with the person that you are supposed to trust beyond all others than who can you share it with? 

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I am far from trying to ridicule you. I’m just trying to express what I see as a flaw in your logic. I mean is it not true that most, if not all dreams in general contain an element of symbolism to them? Else we would not have so many people trying to analyze their own dreams to find their true meaning. I’m just not sure that it’s a distinguishing factor. 

I not longer try to convince anyone of anything. That's a waste of time and an exercise in futilityas far as I'm concerned.   If someone wants to reframe or talk about other possibilities, then I'm all ears.  The question is what might be true or could be true and how could it be true.  

I think the old dream is a green dream and we've been given an example of what that looks like from Martin.  Even if people want to get stuck on no specific reference to Ned dream as a green dream in the book;  I think it's deliberate on Martin's part to make it obscure and ambiguous.  I think it would be like him to try and slip something like this past the reader.

You're free to make something of it or nothing of it.

[Black Crow]

Yes I think that some thoughts of cool clear water are called for here lest a large bucket of Ice descends for breaching the local house rules below.

I'll just content myself with two observations. Without scrabbling around doing a line-by line analysis, there appears to be a general feeling in the books that Lyanna was a wild, and no doubt willful child. Leaving aside Lady Barbrey's observation, the suggestion that she could assume the role of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is far from inconsistent with what we're told of her. It doesn't prove that she was the mystery knight, but nothing we know of her, including Howland Reed's tale, casts doubt on the attribution.

Secondly, as to Green Dreams, I don't think its necessary to tie ourselves in knots over their precise form. There are ordinary dreams, fevered or otherwise which originate in our own heads, and there are Green dreams which are inserted there by a third party.

As to how we distinguish them, that's more difficult and depends on the individual dream, and how its presented. Sometimes the third party, whether the Three-eyed Crow or anybody else actually manifests, but not always. There's no mention for example of an external narrator in Jojen's dreams.

I think the short and dirty answer is to take a step back and consider what the dream is telling us and why in terms of the story. Lord Eddard's fever dream certainly seems to be more than a simple narrative memory and why are the Winterfell crypts calling to Jon - he never feared them as a child.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I put BS app because you are spouting the very thing that JNR has been pushing for ages: that in fact I'm a liar about my communications with GRRM in the course of working with him.

And I'm kind of tired of it. Go find somewhere else to be conspiracy nuts.

 

I don’t think you’re lying about your communications with GRRM nor did I get the impression that JNR was accusing you of lying. What I got out of it was that character knowledge or opinions don’t necessarily translate to facts. He used Ned being named as Jon’s father as an example. It’s what Ned claimed and what most characters believed, but is it necessarily true? 

59 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I am far from trying to ridicule you. I’m just trying to express what I see as a flaw in your logic. I mean is it not true that most, if not all dreams in general contain an element of symbolism to them? Else we would not have so many people trying to analyze their own dreams to find their true meaning. I’m just not sure that it’s a distinguishing factor. 

Neither LynnS or myself object to being challenged, but when the challenger uses phrases like “read the fucking text” or make accusations that I’m trying to “trick people” into believing something. (That last one was a real head scratcher. Why would I want to trick anyone?) I’m just sharing what I see and try my best to demonstrate why I’ve interpreted it that way.  Corbon presumes that he has a greater ability to interpret the text better than anyone else, because his interpretation is the simplest explanation - so much so that he “fixes” or corrects a post, and tells us when something is “flawed” so that we don’t continue “this line” of reasoning. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Do we know anything about the horse that TKotLT rode in TToHH? I don’t remember there being any. 

Not specifically in simple black and white text, but the beautiful grey mare in heat that Loras rode is a symbolic hint that Lyanna was involved somehow with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The context is that she's a maiden who was an accomplished horsewoman, a flowered "woman-child". The "grey" is representative of House Stark. The fanciful footwork of the mare, "pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer" also has meaning open to interpretation. The first that comes to my mind is how Arya was training to be a water-dancer, so it could mean that Lyanna practiced with sword also - not sure if she was self-taught, mimicking her brothers, or if Rickard had hired her a teacher. We just don't have enough information, but the skills of the horse hint at something.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I wanted to return to this, because after rereading the Mercy chapter I also returned to the Cat of the Canals chapter to add this definition of tourney - that a tourney is "play acting at war". In Cat of the Canals, plays are held on ships, and the ship where Mercy acts at is The Ship. It is my opinion, the hidden story in the Cat of the Canals chapter is about the (play) Tourney at Harrenhal.

Just a clarification about the Braavosi play houses. The playhouse that Mercy acts at is called the Gate, and it is built on ground that was sinking and cheap, which is why Izembaro purchased it. There is a play house called The Ship, and this one does seem like it is an actual ship, since it's noted to be moored, and it seems like the lowest of the playhouses, as it's hinted these actors work as prostitutes for the  right price. The Blue Lantern and The Dome are other playhouses. I do think you are on to some parallel's between Braavos and the riverlands although some of our interpretations vary. I do think that the names that GRRM gave to the playhouses are important hints. Mercy works at the Gate but does not live very close to it, but it's still close enough to take Raff "away from the Gate" to her apartment during the play, kill him, and make it back before the second act when the character that she is playing is supposed to be raped and murdered by the character played by Bobano, a dwarf with the giant fake cock. It makes sense to me that Bobono is playing Tyrion, because they are both dwarfs but it's possible that Bobono's character is someone besides Tyrion. It seems like the play is about the fall of Robert and Ned and the rise of the Lannister's. I have wondered if Arya/Mercy isn't playing the role of Sansa and the rape is a hint at her marriage to Tyrion. But Sansa doesn't die, and the rape is questionable for Sansa, as there is no actual consummation of the marriage, but is that commonly known?

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Just a clarification about the Braavosi play houses. The playhouse that Mercy acts at is called the Gate, and it is built on ground that was sinking and cheap, which is why Izembaro purchased it. There is a play house called The Ship, and this one does seem like it is an actual ship, since it's noted to be moored, and it seems like the lowest of the playhouses

Oh you are right, it was The Gate! I misspoke. I was so focused on the ships as playhouses and tourneys as play acting at war that I wrongly identified The Ship. 

I need a few minutes to reread and rephrase. 

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

My apologies for misreading your previous comment. 

But...how is Ned's interaction with Barra's mom a piece of supporting evidence for RLJ? He never mentions what his promises to Lyanna were. He never mentions Rhaegar or Jon. 

Just a side note first - thats a different subject, not one I brought up, but one that came up after I was accused of being biased in reading (which for me is kind of a terrible sin!) because I believe R+L=J is very very likely true.

Heck, with all the symbolism and metaphor thats taken for granted here...
A young mother is pleading for the future of her bastard child... and that takes Ned to the promises he made Lyanna (and indirectly to the fear that went out of her eyes when he gave her promises) as she lay dying. That points pretty strong to Jon (because he''s the bastard Ned cared for) being Lyanna's child at the ToJ (given other evidence, such as Lyanna being in a 'bed of blood' etc). Once you place Jon there, as Lyanna's, a number of other options disappear (eg X+A=J) and the case for R+L=J is pretty damn strong.

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

There isn't anything about this text that explicitly connects it to the RLJ theory. Which itself is never even suggested anywhere in canon. Not a single person ever thinks to themselves "Hmmmm, I wonder if Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's true parents." 

You're lying to yourself when you say that people are denying that this interaction between Ned and Barra's mom is explicit textual support for RLJ. It flat out isn't...and lying to yourself is an awful way to build a theory. 

Did I say explicit? If I did, I mispoke, I don't think I did though (the 'explicit' part is that Barra's mums plea connects in Ned's head to Lyanna's dying pleas, or at least the promise he gives one leads him to the promises he gave another). Its supporting evidence. It can also work as supporting evidence for some other theories (any X+L=J). Its counter evidence to still other theories. Its not really proof of anything on its own.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh for fuck sake.  Do you really think that Jojen is the only character in this story who can have a green dream? 

No. I used Jojen because you gave me Jojen. You claimed that Ned's dream was a green dream because it matched elements of Jojen's green dream.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jojen gives us the example of what a fucking green dream looks like. 

Does he? We don't see any live in his head. We only see a limited description over what happened in one of them. Two lines encompassing a whole green dream.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do you really think the Ned's old dream doesn't have the same characteristics as Jojen's dream? 

I don't know. We have very few characteristics of Jojen's green dream. And its very hard to tell what components are intrinsic to green dreams and what to normal or fever dreams.
If Ned's dream has prophetic elements, then it will apparently have some commonality with green dreams. It may or may not be one, I don't see how we can tell, and currently see no evidence that it is green as opposed to normal or fevered.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Just because Ned doesn't know what a fucking green dream is doesn't mean he didn't have one.

Agreed.
And just because Ned has a slightly odd dream doesn't mean he had a green dream.

Where's the supporting evidence that Ned is a green dreamer? What other prophetic dreams did he have?

7 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Where in canon (not a mod's pinky promise) does it say that Lyanna was a superb horse rider?

Two places actually. Plus a third thats a bit weak, but adds some backup.
The weak one first, because its the first we see. Arya tries to escape the BwB (IIRC) on a horse and Harwin catches her after a long chase:

Quote

Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember."

Harwin compliments little girl Arya on her riding skills, and compares her to Lyanna that way.

The second is from Roose Bolton. Its indirect again, but very strong this time I think:

Quote

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

In order to show how great a rider his son was, Roose says that not even Lyanna could beat him - like she's the highest standard he can find. Plus the half a horse thing.
Note too, the jousting horsemanship reference. GRRM is thorough.

The third is the one already given, from Lady Dustin; 

Quote

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. 

Lady Dustin is really talking about Brandon, but throws in Lyanna as well. Loves to ride, a pair of centaurs. Half horse refence again, backing up Roose Bolton's reference.

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I am far from trying to ridicule you. I’m just trying to express what I see as a flaw in your logic. I mean is it not true that most, if not all dreams in general contain an element of symbolism to them? Else we would not have so many people trying to analyze their own dreams to find their true meaning. I’m just not sure that it’s a distinguishing factor. 

Exactly. I may be guilty of a bit of ridicule (of bad arguments, not people I hope) after I'm attacked, but there was none here, just a genuine interest. It (Ned was a greendreamer) really is a cool idea. I'd like to keep it. I'm just not seeing how. 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I don’t think you’re lying about your communications with GRRM nor did I get the impression that JNR was accusing you of lying. What I got out of it was that character knowledge or opinions don’t necessarily translate to facts. He used Ned being named as Jon’s father as an example. It’s what Ned claimed and what most characters believed, but is it necessarily true? 

Neither LynnS or myself object to being challenged, but when the challenger uses phrases like “read the fucking text” or make accusations that I’m trying to “trick people” into believing something. (That last one was a real head scratcher. Why would I want to trick anyone?) I’m just sharing what I see and try my best to demonstrate why I’ve interpreted it that way.  Corbon presumes that he has a greater ability to interpret the text better than anyone else, because his interpretation is the simplest explanation - so much so that he “fixes” or corrects a post, and tells us when something is “flawed” so that we don’t continue “this line” of reasoning. 

Well I agree that nobody should be cursed out for their behavior, but isn’t that what Lynn originally did before editing her post? But she went back and rectified her error. I’m pretty sure it’s not necessary to state the removal of curses as a reason for editing. I myself like to do it on occasion so that my words and their related corrections are not taken in an unintended manner. 
 

Besides, isn’t that the whole point of being here? To not only share ideas but to assess them for flaws? If we wanted to do this on our own then why bother to come to a forum? 

[St Daga]

23 hours ago, corbon said:

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Loras won because he rode a mare in heat, which caused Gregor's stallion to be difficult to control.

 

In other words, he knew horses and rode well, whereas Gregor lost because he couldn't handle his horse.

The massive disparity is size and strength counted for nothing.

Loras beat the Mountain and used trickery to do so. His mare was in heat, which aggravated the Mountain's stallion. We don't know what might have happened had Loras tried to joust against the Mountain without trickery, but it seems likely that the Mountain would have won, based on his size and strength. I do think there is a parallel in play to Harrenhal, and one of the winning jouster's we hear of (either the Knight of the Laughing Tree or Prince Rhaegar) used trickery in some way to win their jousts. Probably, they both used trickery to beat an opponent that otherwise would have won. To say that Loras "knew horses and rode well" is quite a simplification and denies the fact that Loras knowingly used trickery to attempt to beat the Mountain. 

Certainly, we are given the idea that being a talented rider is an important part of jousting, but it's not the only part. There has to be some strength to hold a lance even steady enough to hit a target, and then having the strength to unhorse that opponent. I watched a reality show called Full Metal Jousting, and this is not a sport that doesn't take time and practice  to accomplish.  IF Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, she would probably have needed to use some trickery to win her jousts, and nothing in canon tells us that Lyanna ever practiced at jousting. Book canon does indicate that she was a darn good rider, but is that enough to make her successful against trained men with a lance? Probably not without trickery, although I really doubt she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

56 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Not specifically in simple black and white text, but the beautiful grey mare in heat that Loras rode is a symbolic a nod that Lyanna was involved somehow with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The context is that she's a maiden who was an accomplished horsewoman, a flowered "woman-child". The "grey" is representative of House Stark. The fanciful footwork of the mare, "pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer" also has meaning open to interpretation. The first that comes to my mind is how Arya was training to be a water-dancer, so it could mean that Lyanna practiced with sword also - not sure if she was self-taught, mimicking her brothers, or if Rickard had hired her a teacher. We just don't have enough information, but the skills of the horse hint at something.

Yes. It very well could be what is implied in that statement I agree. Heck, we can even look at dancer as an abbreviation of “the answer” if you want to take things that far. I’m just not sure that I do. I do agree that nothing that I recall seems to refute this interpretation. 

[Lady Dyanna]

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Just a clarification about the Braavosi play houses. The playhouse that Mercy acts at is called the Gate, and it is built on ground that was sinking and cheap, which is why Izembaro purchased it. There is a play house called The Ship, and this one does seem like it is an actual ship, since it's noted to be moored, and it seems like the lowest of the playhouses, as it's hinted these actors work as prostitutes for the  right price. The Blue Lantern and The Dome are other playhouses. I do think you are on to some parallel's between Braavos and the riverlands although some of our interpretations vary. I do think that the names that GRRM gave to the playhouses are important hints. Mercy works at the Gate but does not live very close to it, but it's still close enough to take Raff "away from the Gate" to her apartment during the play, kill him, and make it back before the second act when the character that she is playing is supposed to be raped and murdered by the character played by Bobano, a dwarf with the giant fake cock. It makes sense to me that Bobono is playing Tyrion, because they are both dwarfs but it's possible that Bobono's character is someone besides Tyrion. It seems like the play is about the fall of Robert and Ned and the rise of the Lannister's. I have wondered if Arya/Mercy isn't playing the role of Sansa and the rape is a hint at her marriage to Tyrion. But Sansa doesn't die, and the rape is questionable for Sansa, as there is no actual consummation of the marriage, but is that commonly known?

I really like this interpretation, and can remember nothing that contradicts it. Unless someone else can? And funnily enough it is also ASSUMED in WESTEROS that Tyrion DID in fact rape Sansa and that he ALSO killed his mother in childbirth. And you know what happens with ASSUMPTIONS. They make an ASS of U and Me. 

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There are however two separate occurrences (the fight with the Butcher’s Boy, and Jon defending Sam, aka Sir Piggy, when he arrives at Castle Black) that I feel are possibly linked to Lyanna defending Howland at the ToHH. There’s a similar feel to them and color/animal symbolism is heavily applied. But, it’s difficult to line up exactly who is who, as the characters themselves involved in these occurrences almost seem to shift roles based upon their personal choices. 

I do agree that the symbolism of Arya defending Mycah against Joffrey could be a hint to us of Lyanna defending someone, and perhaps against someone who fits a "princely" image. It could be Howland, but I am not sold entirely, mostly because the numbers are wrong. I speculate that Sansa's role in the past was that of Ashara, but that is more of a guess than anything.

As to the other scenario that you describe, I actually feel like that could be a hint about the tower of joy. Jon is the best swordsman of the recruits at he wall, and I think he fit's for Arthur Dayne and Jon certainly has SotM imagery around him. Grenn is often described as a "auroch's" which is a type of large cattle, and I think he fits the imagery for Gerald "the Bull" Hightower. Pyp is more slightly built but is noted to have large, funny ears, perhaps like wings, so I think he fits the imagery of Oswell Whent. So, we have Jon (Dayne), Grenn (Hightower) and Pyp (Whent) protecting Samwell, who is almost as weak and useless as an infant in this scene, from men who are seen as the enemy, Rast, Halder and Albett on the command of Ser Aliser Thorn.  I think Sam is the key in this passage, as he is a weak person being defended by three stronger people. I have toyed with the idea of Samwell as being the child that might have been in the toj (I think he could be Aegon), but it could also be a hint of Jon Snow's connection to Ser Arthur Dayne. Of course, this would make Ned and his "wraith's" fit the role of the aggressor, but I suppose that all just comes done to what side you are standing on. Jon as a protector could fit the role of his mother, which I do think is Lyanna, but it could also fit either his father, or the imagery that GRRM gives us at Castle Black is meant to show us something important about what was at the tower of joy. I don't think it was Jon Snow at (notice I don't say in, because I don't think it's a structure that can be entered) that tower, simply because in this scene, the imagery for what is being protected isn't Jon. Jon is the protector. while Samwell Tarly, who needs to be protected that is important. 

[LynnS]

57 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well I agree that nobody should be cursed out for their behavior, but isn’t that what Lynn originally did before editing her post? But she went back and rectified her error. I’m pretty sure it’s not necessary to state the removal of curses as a reason for editing. I myself like to do it on occasion so that my words and their related corrections are not taken in an unintended manner. 
 

Besides, isn’t that the whole point of being here? To not only share ideas but to assess them for flaws? If we wanted to do this on our own then why bother to come to a forum? 

I rarely curse someone out unless they repeatedly go over the line and I didn't remove them.

From my point of view, there are only two examples of green dreams in all the books.  The first in GoT and second in CoK when Martin decided to actually call Jojen's dream a green dream.  One of the things I ask myself when I come across something like Jojen's dream; is have we seen any other examples of this type of dream.  I'm always looking for things that Martin hides in plain sight.  I also think in terms of possibilities and potentials.  That's way outside most people's bailiwick.

No, I don't make a point of criticizing everything I read.  In fact, I rarely criticize how someone else engages with the material. I don't think it's a productive way to engage with people.  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Neither LynnS or myself object to being challenged, but when the challenger uses phrases like “read the fucking text” or make accusations that I’m trying to “trick people” into believing something. (That last one was a real head scratcher. Why would I want to trick anyone?) I’m just sharing what I see and try my best to demonstrate why I’ve interpreted it that way.  Corbon presumes that he has a greater ability to interpret the text better than anyone else, because his interpretation is the simplest explanation - so much so that he “fixes” or corrects a post, and tells us when something is “flawed” so that we don’t continue “this line” of reasoning. 

Yah,  I'm tired of that.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Just a clarification about the Braavosi play houses. The playhouse that Mercy acts at is called the Gate, and it is built on ground that was sinking and cheap, which is why Izembaro purchased it. There is a play house called The Ship, and this one does seem like it is an actual ship, since it's noted to be moored, and it seems like the lowest of the playhouses, as it's hinted these actors work as prostitutes for the  right price. The Blue Lantern and The Dome are other playhouses. I do think you are on to some parallel's between Braavos and the riverlands although some of our interpretations vary. I do think that the names that GRRM gave to the playhouses are important hints. Mercy works at the Gate but does not live very close to it, but it's still close enough to take Raff "away from the Gate" to her apartment during the play, kill him, and make it back before the second act when the character that she is playing is supposed to be raped and murdered by the character played by Bobano, a dwarf with the giant fake cock. It makes sense to me that Bobono is playing Tyrion, because they are both dwarfs but it's possible that Bobono's character is someone besides Tyrion. It seems like the play is about the fall of Robert and Ned and the rise of the Lannister's. I have wondered if Arya/Mercy isn't playing the role of Sansa and the rape is a hint at her marriage to Tyrion. But Sansa doesn't die, and the rape is questionable for Sansa, as there is no actual consummation of the marriage, but is that commonly known?

There are a lot of different topics in your post that I'd like to address, specifically the play Mercy is in - but I'll get to that later. Right now I want to focus on The Ship.

I think The Ship is sort of the mother of all ships - it seems like a big playhouse. It could still be Harrenhal, which is known as a large castle, but it could be the Red Keep too - especially since their play is "an answer" to another play.

The description of The Gate sounds like it's a smaller, "off-Broadway" type of playhouse, but they are getting a lot of attention with the "rape play". The sinking and therefore cheap property it's located on brings to mind the marshiness of the Neck in the Riverlands. It seems as if "the rape" took place somewhere else (other than the tourney) - in a "sinking" place. If we examine other details connected to The Ship, maybe we can reveal clues for both places. I have a place in mind for the rape - I think it might be Whitewalls, but it may be the Inn at the Crossroads too. We will have to do more investigating with regards to the Gate, but first lets go over things related to the Ship.

The Ship is a moored playhouse, but it is also where the Sailor's Wife lives holds her weddings. She is a noteworthy prostitute, because she won't have sex with any of her johns unless they marry her first. The "husbands" aren't true husbands, but more akin to a "salt-wife". The question is, what is the parallel to all of these salt-husbands? It makes me wonder if this is in reference to men who father bastards? They aren't really "husbands" of the women who's maidenhead's they've taken. It's like the old saying, why buy the cow if the milk is free? If maidenheads are commodities, they are taking something that transactionally belongs to a husband.

The Sailor's wife has a 14-year old daughter named Lanna, and one of the prostitutes that lives with the Sailor's wife is named Sloey. Pretty Pig and Frey Family Reunion have both drawn parallels between Ashara's purple eyes and the ship, Sloe-Eyed Maid, since sloe-berries are purple. Lanna straight up just sounds like Lyanna - the age is appropriate too. Lanna and Sloey might be a parallel of Lyanna and Ashara. They too might be women who have lost their maidenheads to men who were not their husbands - except I think the Sailor's Wife was still auctioning off Lanna's virginity to see who would pay the higher price.

When Meera told the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree she said the laughing maid with purple eyes "danced with many men". This could be interpreted to mean that she had sex with more than one man or even that she was raped. The following text talks about how "Quence finally came upon Allaquo abed with Sloey." 

Quote

The day was nearly done by the time Cat reached the Happy Port, across the alley from where the Ship was anchored. Some of the mummers sat up atop the listing hulk, passing a skin of wine from hand to hand, but when they saw Cat's barrow they came down for some oysters. She asked them how it went with Seven Drunken Oarsmen. Joss the Gloom shook his head. "Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey. They went at one another with mummer swords, and both of them have left us. We'll only be five drunken oarsmen tonight, it would seem."

Frey Family Reunion suggested that "Quence" sounded a bit like the fruit, “quince”, which is a pear-shaped fruit that can leave a bitter taste in one’s mouth. Not to mention that when something goes wrong, people sometimes describe it as going “all pear-shaped”. It has been speculated that the quince was the fruit of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. There is also a Turkish expression, “to eat the quince”, which apparently refers to an unpleasant situation to avoid. Lastly, the Bael fruit is sometimes called the Bengal Quince. This last tidbit may be a tiny confirmation that Jon is an unexpected bitter Bael "fruit" of a situation that went all pear-shaped.

FFR also shared his best thoughts about "Allaquo". He said the closest word that was similar was Alaqua, which is a Native American word for the Sweet Gum Tree. This tree has pointed five-star-shaped leaves and round spikey balls as fruit. It is also known as redgum - which brings to mind the red sourleaf chewed in the story. Sourleaf is a foul tasting plant, chewed similar to tobacco. It causes a pink froth on the lips, staining the mouth and teeth red, and causes a noticeable red smile. The "red smile" brings to mind the Smiling Knight who I have theorized was actually Robert Baratheon. If Allaquo and Sloey is indeed a parallel to Robert and Ashara, then Quence was someone that saw them in bed together. Allaquo and Quence "went at one another with mummer swords" and then left. Robert did compete in the melee, so its possible that the two never used actual swords, but rather took it out in the melee.

Recall that the play Seven Drunken Oarsmen was to be The Ship's "answer" to "The Lord of Woeful Countenance" (played at the Blue Lantern). The word "countenance" has to do with the appearance on someone's face. "Woeful is lamentably bad or serious. When Lyanna went missing, her brother Brandon showed up at the Red Keep and demanded Rhaegar come out and die. I would say that he was definitely, lamentably serious, plus the Starks tend to have long faces.

Oarsmen are men that row or power the ships. The dictionary states, "one who rows, especially in a racing crew." The oarsmen would be the men involved in the "play", er rather the "tourney", which was at Harrenhal, but it turned into a real war. It could also be referring to the financing behind the tourney, or it could be all the parties involved. The main houses of the Rebellion had Tully, Stark, Arryn, and Baratheon as the rebels with Lannister added at the end - that's five. The other side was the crown - House Targaryen. All the other houses were loyalists so I'm thinking that Aerys and Rhaegar were the other two oarsmen. The play said the seven oarsmen were "drunken". If you are inebriated you are sometimes foolish, you tend not to think straight, and you might do things you wouldn't do sober. Drunken could mean saturated in alcohol, but it could also mean drunk with power.

The Seven Drunken Oarsmen was to be 'the answer" to The Lord of Woeful Countenance. How did Aerys respond - what was his answer? He took Brandon prisoner, summoned Rickard, and asked for Ned and Robert. Jon Arryn answered back by raising his banners, and Robert's Rebellion was born.

I have to take another break, but there is much and more to discuss!
 

[corbon]

11 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Where in canon (not a mod's pinky promise) does it say that Lyanna was a superb horse rider?

There are three references that I recall.
The first is not quite as strong as the others, but its there adding depth to the idea.

Quote

Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember."

Harwin has just chaed down Arya after (IIRC) she tried to escape the BWB on horseback. He compliments her riding and likens her to Lyanna that way.

The second is IMO the strongest, from Roose Bolton.

Quote

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

Roose basically holds Lyanna up as the gold standard for horsemanship, as not even she could beat his son. And calls her half a horse.

Note also the jousting-horsemanship reference. GRRM is thorough.

The third is the one already given:

Quote

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. 

Lady Dustin basically backs up Roose Bolton's call.

10 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

My apologies for misreading your previous comment. 

No worries, I do it too at times.

Quote

But...how is Ned's interaction with Barra's mom a piece of supporting evidence for RLJ? He never mentions what his promises to Lyanna were. He never mentions Rhaegar or Jon. 

There isn't anything about this text that explicitly connects it to the RLJ theory. Which itself is never even suggested anywhere in canon. Not a single person ever thinks to themselves "Hmmmm, I wonder if Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's true parents." 

You're lying to yourself when you say that people are denying that this interaction between Ned and Barra's mom is explicit textual support for RLJ. It flat out isn't...and lying to yourself is an awful way to build a theory. 

Did I say explicitly? I don't think so, if I did I mis-spoke. The explicit part is that his promise to Barra's mum makes him think of his promise to Lyanna.

But heck, you'd think in a place where metaphor and parallel and symbolism are more important that things that actually happen, given that Ned explicitly links the promises Ned is making in response Barra's mums pleas for her child's future to the promises he made Lyanna dying in her bed of blood, you'd think the parallelism here would be reasonably accepted, no?
One woman pleading for the future of her (bastard) child and being releived when Ned promises her he will care for the child linked by Ned directly to another woman pleading for something and showing relief when Ned makes her a promise. And Ned has a bastard child that he cares for already, who originated in same period/area as that old linked promise to Lyanna.

Its a pretty clear and obvious parallel given that Ned's already explicitly linked the two events. And the bastard in his care from the first promise is already known to us.

This acts as supporting evidence for any X+L=J theory. It acts as counter evidence for any theory that does not hold Lyanna the mother. It does not prove or disprove any theory on its own.

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh for fuck sake.  Do you really think that Jojen is the only character in this story who can have a green dream? 

No, but he's the one you gave and the only one who claims them as yet, right?

Quote

Jojen gives us the example of what a fucking green dream looks like. 

But we didn't see it in his head. We got bits and pieces of it in his descriptions.

Lets have a closer look. 

Quote

"The Walders aren't my brothers."

She paid that no heed. "You were sitting at supper, but instead of a servant, Maester Luwin brought you your food. He served you the king's cut off the roast, the meat rare and bloody, but with a savory smell that made everyone's mouth water. The meat he served the Freys was old and grey and dead. Yet they liked their supper better than you liked yours."

"I don't understand."

...

It seemed only a few heartbeats after she took her leave that the door opened again, and Jojen Reed entered unbidden, with his sister Meera behind him. "You heard about the bird?" Bran asked. The other boy nodded. "It wasn't a supper like you said. It was a letter from Robb, and we didn't eat it, but—"

"The green dreams take strange shapes sometimes," Jojen admitted. "The truth of them is not always easy to understand."

This green dream seems very real and specific. Nothing weird at all, 

Its still difficult to interpret - it seems to me in part because it seems so realistic and straightforward.

I think the repeated "as it was/had been in life" references clearly show Ned's dream, at least the pre-fight part, is based on memories. Jojen's dream is not. 
Otherwise Jojen's dream seems rather 'normal'. I think he identifies it as a green dream because its not a memory, yet repeats. 

Quote

"Not drowned." Jojen spoke as if every word pained him. "I dreamed of the man who came today, the one they call Reek. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a long red blade."

...

"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

Again, it seems to me like the green dreams play 'real' as though they were memories but have not yet (or ever will be, because they actually are allegorical to future, not real future events) been lived. Very little 'fantastical' elements. Just the sea rising over the walls. Every other part is 'normal' and the sea rising over the walls could also be 'normal' too. It simply Like Winterfell was at the seaside, the sea's lapping the walls at low tide, waves crash as the tide rises and eventually it rises higher than the walls, flows over them and everybody drowns. 
None of these images seem 'unreal' except that Winterfell has been moved to a new location.

Quote

Do you really think the Ned's old dream doesn't have the same characteristics as Jojen's dream? 

Well, what characteristics does it share? It has realism. So do Jojen's green dreams. But Ned's is based on his memories, Jojens are of things he's never seen, things that never actually come to pass they way they did in the dream.
Ned's dream has some fantastical elements (that I think are fever induced). Do Jojen's green dreams have such? Doesn't seem so. 

Quote

because Ned doesn't know what a fucking green dream is doesn't mean he didn't have one.

Agreed.
And equally, just because Ned has a dream, doesn't mean he's had a green dream, or that its a sending form outside.

Jojen's dreams clearly have an outside origin as they are of things he's never witnessed. But Ned's dream, all of it, comes from things he's witnessed - whether its the pre-fight scene, the blue rose petals or the blood streaks.

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I get frustrated too, but don't sink to their level. Some people get uncomfortable discussing symbolism. They want the interpretation to be clear and straightforward, but that is only skimming the surface in this series. This thread was begun under the topic of discussing symbolism and dreams, but some are refusing to examine all of the possibilities if it doesn't fit the R+L=J narrative.

I'm not refusing to examine possibilities. I'm in fact, trying to do exactly that - examine them, not just run with them willy-nilly. I don't have a problem with symbolism, but surely it has to have 'real' backup, or not run opposite to things that are 'real'. 
The R+L=J narrative is your bugbear. I'm not driving it. I'm driving holding any potential narrative up against the light and see how it fits the evidence.

Quote

The imagery in Ned's dream is like a green dream.

Because you say so? The closer I look, the less I agree.

Quote

Just like the imagery in Jojen's green dream about the sea flowing over the walls of Winterfell, the imagery of "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." is an allegory - a symbolic representation or visual expression that uses symbolism to convey truths or generalizations about human conduct or experience.

So only green dream contain allegories?

Both the blue rose petals (or what-ever coloured rose petals across a blue sky, depending on how its read) and the blood streaks, are part of Ned's experiential memories. 
The tide rising to engulf Winterfell is not part of Jojen's experiential memories.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

To be fair, LynnS original point was that she thought the dream may have been sent from the Weirwood (Weirnet).  And there is some textual evidence that a powerful telepath hooked into the weirnet could very well have sent Ned this dream.

So Brynden Rivers who can only approach his targets in dreams, had been watching Eddard Stark since Eddard’s birth.

If Brynden wished to send Eddard a warning, he would have done it through a dream.  Perhaps an old dream, sent from an old place (godswood), from the old gods.

Yep, Good point. 
I still don;t see anything in Ned's dream that points to it coming from outside. Or shows similarities with Jojen's dreams, which clearly do come from outside.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

That wasn't a joke. 

"I fixed that for you" is a pretty standard joke. And the only thing it changed, was to show that green dreams are not the only ones that can be hard to understand. You took an aspect of all (or many) dreams and identified it as a specific marker of green dreams. 
It is a marker of green dreams. Jojen says so. But its not something that tells green dreams apart from other dreams

 

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I am far from trying to ridicule you. I’m just trying to express what I see as a flaw in your logic. I mean is it not true that most, if not all dreams in general contain an element of symbolism to them? Else we would not have so many people trying to analyze their own dreams to find their true meaning. I’m just not sure that it’s a distinguishing factor. 

Exactly.

I don't know whats so bad about applying logic and some structure. Without it you get disasters. Just as without some understanding of symbolism and allegory you miss much of value, perhaps some of the 'beauty' of ASoIaF.
We need both elements. 

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Do we know anything about the horse that TKotLT rode in TToHH? I don’t remember there being any. 

Not that I'm aware of.

[St Daga]

45 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The Sailor's wife has a 14-year old daughter named Lanna, and one of the prostitutes that lives with the Sailor's wife is named Sloey. Pretty Pig and Frey Family Reunion have both drawn parallels between Ashara's purple eyes and the ship, Sloe-Eyed Maid, since sloe-berries are purple. Lanna straight up just sounds like Lyanna - the age is appropriate too. Lanna and Sloey might be a parallel of Lyanna and Ashara. They too might be women who have lost their maidenheads to men who were not their husbands - except I think the Sailor's Wife was still auctioning off Lanna's virginity to see who would pay the higher price.

I was part of a discussion several years ago on Davos' Three Sister's chapters and helped with that "sloe-berry" imagery that is tied to Ashara. 

There are several posts that discuss this, but this is some of Pretty Pig and I's discussion. I think that the Sloe-Eyed Maid is a nod to Ashara and is a tie to Daenerys. Dany attempts to seek passage on the Sloe-Eyed Maid while in Qarth, and I think it ties to Ashara being Dany's mother. The Sloe-Eyed Maid ended up crashed on the shores of Sisterton, and we are told that Ashara fell from a tower and "crashed" into the sea. The Sloe-Eyed Maid is pillaged by Lord Borrell's men while as far as we know, Ashara's remains are never found.

I also think Lyanna is discussed in these chapters as the Merry Midwife, but it's possible that "midwife" is Wylla. I personally think Wylla is a nickname for Lyanna.

52 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The Ship is a moored playhouse, but it is also where the Sailor's Wife lives. She is a noteworthy prostitute, because she won't have sex with any of her johns unless they marry her first. The "husbands" aren't true husbands, but more akin to a "salt-wife". The question is, what is the parallel to all of these salt-husbands? It makes me wonder if this is in reference to men who father bastards? They aren't really "husbands" of the women who's maidenhead's they've taken. It's like the old saying, why buy the cow if the milk is free? If maidenheads are commodities, they are taking something that transactionally belongs to a husband.

The Sailor's Wife and her daughter Lanna live at the Happy Port brothel, although the Happy Port is very close to The Ship, also known as The Mummer's Ship, right across the street.

56 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The following text talks about how "Quence finally came upon Allaquo abed with Sloey." 

Quote

The day was nearly done by the time Cat reached the Happy Port, across the alley from where the Ship was anchored. Some of the mummers sat up atop the listing hulk, passing a skin of wine from hand to hand, but when they saw Cat's barrow they came down for some oysters. She asked them how it went with Seven Drunken Oarsmen. Joss the Gloom shook his head. "Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey. They went at one another with mummer swords, and both of them have left us. We'll only be five drunken oarsmen tonight, it would seem."

Frey Family Reunion suggested that "Quence" sounded a bit like the fruit, “quince”, which is a pear-shaped fruit that can leave a bitter taste in one’s mouth. Not to mention that when something goes wrong, people sometimes describe it as going “all pear-shaped”. It has been speculated that the quince was the fruit of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. There is also a Turkish expression, “to eat the quince”, which apparently refers to an unpleasant situation to avoid. Lastly, the Bael fruit is sometimes called the Bengal Quince. This last tidbit may be a tiny confirmation that Jon is an unexpected bitter Bael "fruit" of a situation that went all pear-shaped.

FFR also shared his best thoughts about "Allaquo". He said the closest word that was similar was Alaqua, which is a Native American word for the Sweet Gum Tree. This tree has pointed five-star-shaped leaves and round spikey balls as fruit. It is also known as redgum - which brings to mind the red sourleaf chewed in the story. Sourleaf is a foul tasting plant, chewed similar to tobacco. It causes a pink froth on the lips, staining the mouth and teeth red, and causes a noticeable red smile. The "red smile" brings to mind the Smiling Knight who I have theorized was actually Robert Baratheon. If Allaquo and Sloey is indeed a parallel to Robert and Ashara, then Quence was someone that saw them in bed together. Allaquo and Quence "went at one another with mummer swords" and then left. Robert did compete in the melee, so its possible that the two never used actual swords, but rather took it out in the melee.

This is interesting about Sloey, as well as the information on Allaquo and Quence, although when reading the passage, I am unsure of which one is the female and which are the male. The Happy Port is known for a male prostitute disguised as a female named Canker Jeyne, so it could be that GRRM mentions that for a reason. Although, I like the idea of Sloey being a female that had multiple lovers who fought with one another. I have long thought that Robert Baratheon and Ashara hooked up at Harrenhal. 

I do like the analysis of the Seven Drunken Oarsmen, and it's a great idea to interpret the names of the plays. I haven't given much thought to them except for thinking The Bloody Hand is about Ned Stark and his fall from power. I find quite a bit of inspiration in the names of ships in the story, such as the Sloe-Eyed Maid, the Merry Midwife,the  Storm Dancer, etc. The Blackwater battle and the Iron Born chapters almost make me cross my eyes because there is so much juicy potential to unravel. 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The Sailor's Wife and her daughter Lanna live at the Happy Port brothel, although the Happy Port is very close to The Ship, also known as The Mummer's Ship, right across the street.

Let me rephrase that. The Ship is the location where the Sailor's Wife's weddings take place. Thanks for all the corrections! I'm making edits on my end too.

[corbon]

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

To say that Loras "knew horses and rode well" is quite a simplification and denies the fact that Loras knowingly used trickery to attempt to beat the Mountain. 

It does not deny it, it absorbs it, includes it, expands on it. Loras didn't just go 'ha, clever trick, I win". He still had to actually ride the joust and defeat Gregor.
 The way Loras beat Gregor was out-horsemanning him. He was able to do that because he used a trick to lower Gregor's horsemanship, and Gregor ended up fighting his horse rather than teaming with it. Note how Gregor finished off the fight with his horse after he lost...

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Certainly, we are given the idea that being a talented rider is an important part of jousting, but it's not the only part. There has to be some strength to hold a lance even steady enough to hit a target, and then having the strength to unhorse that opponent. I watched a reality show called Full Metal Jousting, and this is not a sport that doesn't take time and practice  to accomplish.  

We aren't reading a reality show. We are reading GRRM's world. GRRM has horsmanship as 75% of jousting skill, according to the in world expetrs, and backs that up with other in-world sources. And he has a 10 year old boy able to hold a lance up and joust (just barely). A 13-14 year old tomboy should be much more capable than a 10 year old boy.

And just to top it off for you... from released WoW chapters:

Spoiler

And since a princess must have some women to attend her, her company also included pretty Jayne Ladybright and wild Elia Sand, a maid of ten-and-four.
...
Come break of day, they were off again. Elia Sand led the way, her black braid flying behind her as she raced across the dry, cracked plains and up into the hills. The girl was mad for horses, which might be why she often smelled like one, to the despair of her mother. Sometimes Arianne felt sorry for Ellaria. Four girls, and every one of them her father's daughter.
...

"Are you half horse, child?" Valena asked, laughing, in the yard. "Princess, did you bring a stable girl?"

"I'm Elia," the girl announced. "Lady Lance."

Whoever hung that name on her has much to answer for. Like as not it had been Prince Oberyn, though, and the Red Viper had never answered to anyone but himself.
...

"The girl jouster," Valena said. "Yes, I've heard of you. Since you were the first to the yard, you've won the honor of watering and bridling the horses."

"And after that find the bath house," said Princess Arianne. Elia was chalk and dust from heels to hair.

...

Jayne Ladybright grew greensick and spent most of the voyage spewing, which Elia Sand seemed to find hilarious. "Someone needs to spank that child," Joss Hood was heard to say... but Elia was amongst those who heard him say it.

"I am almost a woman grown, ser," she responded haughtily. "I'll let you spank me, though... but first you'll need to tilt with me, and knock me off my horse."

Hmm, fancy that.

Spoiler

A 14 year old girl, tomboyish and wilful, described as half a horse and mad for horses, who is known (already) for jousting.

 

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

IF Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, she would probably have needed to use some trickery to win her jousts, and nothing in canon tells us that Lyanna ever practiced at jousting. Book canon does indicate that she was a darn good rider, but is that enough to make her successful against trained men with a lance? Probably not without trickery, although I really doubt she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 

GRRM seems to disagree with you.