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chrisdaw

Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.

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His hand is just the beginning.

There are two parallels for Jaime that are victims of conspicuous physical disfigurement. By conspicuous I mean GRRM goes out of his way to make a point of just how much these two endured.

 

The dragon Sunfyre.

- Considered the most beautiful dragon ever seen, as Jaime's beauty is well regarded.

- Golden scaled and flamed, as Jaime is associated with Lannister gold and wears golden armour.

- A formidable fighter despite its youth, as Jaime was the youngest ever Kingsguard.

- The name Sunfyre plays to Jaime's description in Bran's vision - "Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful."

- In battle with Meleys, Sunfyre has one wing half torn from his body and can never properly fly again. Jaime loses his primary sword fighting hand.

 

Tyland Lannister

- A younger Lannister twin like Jaime.

- Tall, golden haired and dashing, another Jaime.

 - When it came to Aegon or Rhaenyra - Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath." We know Jaime's association with oaths as a theme of his arc.

- Vied for Rhaenyra's hand in his youth before turning against her. As Rhaenyra is often a parallel to Cersei this echoes Jaime's and Cersei's relationship.

- Noted as being in favour of putting down the rebellious Riverland lords. Jaime's been occupied with war in the Riverlands the whole series.

 

Both characters endured severe physical disfigurement and torment.

Quote

Sunfyre’s scales still shone like beaten gold in the sunlight, but as he sprawled across the fused black Valyrian stone of the yard, it was plain to see that he was a broken thing, he who had been the most magnificent dragon ever to fly the skies of Westeros. The wing all but torn from his body by Meleys jutted from his body at an awkward angle, whilst fresh scars along his back still smoked and bled when he moved. Sunfyre was coiled in a ball when the queen and her party first beheld him. As he stirred and raised his head, huge wounds were visible along his neck, where another dragon had torn chunks from his flesh. On his belly were places where scabs had replaced scales, and where his right eye should have been was only an empty hole, crusted with black blood.

Below is gutter quoting from the Wiki, I'll edit in the appropriate quote from F&B when I have access to it.

Quote

Tyland refused to tell where the gold had been sent to, despite being blinded, gelded, and mutilated by the torturers. He began wearing a silken hood over his head on formal occasions, as ladies new to court were known to faint when seeing his severely disfigured face. His hood, however, gave cause to whispers among the smallfolk, who considered him a malign masked sorcerer and began calling him "the hooded hand".

I propose Jaime is going to endure the same fate. Jaime's arc is one of selfishness to servitude. His selfishness caused the WOT5Ks, and in a classic heel turn arc it is his fate to selflessly endure the worst GRRM can think for him, and give everything of himself, in service to his realm.

It is to contrast his KG brothers, GRRM is exploring the theme of selfishness along the lines that perhaps those who died honourably and revered took the easy option. The selfish option. They kept their oaths but left the realm to chaos. Jaime by choice and fate is not to be granted that luxury, the realm is his responsibility. He will live to do the things the realm needs doing, that no-one else will do, he is its protector, and for it he will be reviled, maligned, tortured and reduced to barely a scrap of life, before, unfortunately, getting an inglorious death and being remembered poorly by most.

Or maybe, hopefully, getting a glorious death (that no-one will know about but us readers).

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Jaime has a hard future to predict.  Some will say he is on a redemptive journey.  I am not so sure.  Losing a hand is in its own a disfigurement.  He lost the ability to do what he does best. 

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From Bran's vision of the gargoyles in Book 1:

"Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque."

From Bran's past experiences, we would associate these gargoyles with Bran's past, and with Jaime and Cersei.  But this could also be a disguised foreshadowing of future events.

I tend to think this foreshadows Jaime and Cersei becoming inhuman undead monsters of the same type as Lady Stoneheart.  But I suppose it also fits in with the OP's ideas.

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3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

From Bran's vision of the gargoyles in Book 1:

 "Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque."

 From Bran's past experiences, we would associate these gargoyles with Bran's past, and with Jaime and Cersei.  But this could also be a disguised foreshadowing of future events.

 I tend to think this foreshadows Jaime and Cersei becoming inhuman undead monsters of the same type as Lady Stoneheart.  But I suppose it also fits in with the OP's ideas.

Never catch that. it could be a foreshadowing, or could be him seing them for what they really are on the inside.

 

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Martin told that Jaime losing what he identified himself with and having to find what he is without it is crucial for what Martin is planning to do with him. So given that Martin is basing Jaime's character on his maiming, I doubt that there going to be even more disfigurement down the road for him.

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11 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Martin told that Jaime losing what he identified himself with and having to find what he is without it is crucial for what Martin is planning to do with him. So given that Martin is basing Jaime's character on his maiming, I doubt that there going to be even more disfigurement down the road for him.

Sounds like a non-sequitur.  Also, if you are going to make such leaps, it would be helpful to have GRRM's precise words.

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5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sounds like a non-sequitur.  Also, if you are going to make such leaps, it would be helpful to have GRRM's precise words.

"Jaime Lannister losing a hand, the very thing he defined himself on, is crucial to where I want to go with the character. He questions: ‘What you make of yourself after you’ve lost that?’"

Seems like George is telling that he is basing Jaime's character arc on Jaime's identity crisis. And to be honest, it's kinda obvious from the books. Jaime trying to figure out what he is now without his hand is his the arc, from which all the changes in Jaime come from. Everything else, including redemption, is secondary to that.

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5 minutes ago, Dofs said:

"Jaime Lannister losing a hand, the very thing he defined himself on, is crucial to where I want to go with the character. He questions: ‘What you make of yourself after you’ve lost that?’"

Seems like George is telling that he is basing Jaime's character arc on Jaime's identity crisis.

Sure.  But that does not mean he has told you where his character arc is going.

5 minutes ago, Dofs said:

And to be honest, it's kinda obvious from the books. Jaime trying to figure out what he is now without his hand is his the arc, from which all the changes in Jaime come from. Everything else, including redemption, is secondary to that.

Sounds to me like confirmation bias.  GRRM's words could mean anything, so you take them as confirmation of what you already believe.  But you have not even said what you already believe, except that you believe that Jaime's arc will not involve further deformation of disfigurement.

In Jaime's Lancel chapter, Lancel invites Jaime to repent.  Jaime asks if the Seven will give him a new hand.  Lancel says no.  Sounds to me that Jaime rejects repentance.  Perhaps he rejects redemption as well.  Perhaps what will follow is a form of damnation, with further deformation to his body and/or soul.  Perhaps he will get his new golden hand from Rh'llor, the fiery face of the many-faced God of Death, and return as an undead fire-wight with a creepy animated golden hand.

That's just a guess.  But it fits GRRMs words well enough.  So would lots of things.

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If he ends up gravitating into team Aegon (result of all his Rhaegar guilt and the - inadvertent? - result of the weirwood dream) I can see him becoming a second Criston Cole - which means he would likely be the worst Kingsguard/knight ever, and a major architect of the Second Dance of the Dragons.

Jaime is a very fun character to read, but he is one of the worst people out there. He only cares about himself, is perhaps the most narcissistic character out there (Cersei at least cares about her children but Jaime only cares about himself).

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On 11/29/2019 at 2:43 AM, chrisdaw said:

His hand is just the beginning.

There are two parallels for Jaime that are victims of conspicuous physical disfigurement. By conspicuous I mean GRRM goes out of his way to make a point of just how much these two endured.

 

The dragon Sunfyre.

- Considered the most beautiful dragon ever seen, as Jaime's beauty is well regarded.

- Golden scaled and flamed, as Jaime is associated with Lannister gold and wears golden armour.

- A formidable fighter despite its youth, as Jaime was the youngest ever Kingsguard.

- The name Sunfyre plays to Jaime's description in Bran's vision - "Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful."

- In battle with Meleys, Sunfyre has one wing half torn from his body and can never properly fly again. Jaime loses his primary sword fighting hand.

 

Tyland Lannister

- A younger Lannister twin like Jaime.

- Tall, golden haired and dashing, another Jaime.

 - When it came to Aegon or Rhaenyra - Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath." We know Jaime's association with oaths as a theme of his arc.

- Vied for Rhaenyra's hand in his youth before turning against her. As Rhaenyra is often a parallel to Cersei this echoes Jaime's and Cersei's relationship.

- Noted as being in favour of putting down the rebellious Riverland lords. Jaime's been occupied with war in the Riverlands the whole series.

 

Both characters endured severe physical disfigurement and torment.

Below is gutter quoting from the Wiki, I'll edit in the appropriate quote from F&B when I have access to it.

I propose Jaime is going to endure the same fate. Jaime's arc is one of selfishness to servitude. His selfishness caused the WOT5Ks, and in a classic heel turn arc it is his fate to selflessly endure the worst GRRM can think for him, and give everything of himself, in service to his realm.

It is to contrast his KG brothers, GRRM is exploring the theme of selfishness along the lines that perhaps those who died honourably and revered took the easy option. The selfish option. They kept their oaths but left the realm to chaos. Jaime by choice and fate is not to be granted that luxury, the realm is his responsibility. He will live to do the things the realm needs doing, that no-one else will do, he is its protector, and for it he will be reviled, maligned, tortured and reduced to barely a scrap of life, before, unfortunately, getting an inglorious death and being remembered poorly by most.

Or maybe, hopefully, getting a glorious death (that no-one will know about but us readers).

Not sure whether Jaime will end up having all those disfigurements (alive), but it certainly is true that George uses this to make arrogant, callous self-serving characters become people who serve.

Jaime's not the sole character in the series this happens to. Theon shares much of the same traits as Jaime at the start, then is tortured, allegedly gelded, fingers broken, etc. and towards the end of aDoD serves to save a horribly abused girl.

It's in Jaime's POV we first learn of the Goat's torturous end. The leader of the Bloody Mummers is too far gone, too evil to be emotionally and mentally turned, but in the end even he serves to feed the prisoners by being their food. And it appears likely in Jaime's POV first as a warning for him, as he also has 2 horses with him - the red blooded Glory and the white Honor. Both stand for a fork in the road that Jaime can take imo: if he chooses to have Glory, his death will be quick and bloody, and he will be remembered for it as the proud, arrogant, handsome Jaime. But what will be Honor's path?

In Ned we also see the maimed-serving theme appear. All the time before Ned gets wounded in his leg, he's busying himself with investigating the murder of Jon Arryn - the game of thrones so to speak. But then Robert basically orders him to sit on the Iron Throne and serve as justicier for the petitions of the smallfolk. That's when Edmure shows up with the smallfolk witnesses of the Mountain's raids on villages, sends Beric on his way to arrest the Mountain (who ends up fighting everyone who harms the smallfolk, and whose wounds and disfigurements keep adding up,  until he voluntarily gives up his own life). Ned strays from this path to serve the realm, when he plays the game of thrones himself and even in the black cell, hopes for Cat to raise armies. Varys (also maimed) reminds him that his daughters and the smallfolk would pay for the consequences of such a thing, and in the end he chooses to surrender his reputation, declare himself a traitor and loses his head.

So, I'm not sure that Jaime will have all the same disfigurements as Sunfyre, but I agree that the hand may not be the sole thing he loses, and that maiming and wounding is something that George uses in characters who have to serve the "innocent": defenseless women and children and that includes the Stark daughters.

More such characters:

  • Brienne: starts out in life as being unappealing, combined with her desire to be a knight. She goes in search of the Stark daughters, but is maimed in the face around the moment that she is about to give up the search, has a conversation about her future life at home (lordly life), and realizes Gendry's paternity and wants to tell him (game of thrones). She then ends up with the BwB, who both protect the Smallfolk and the disfigured Stark mother who looks for her daughters and hangs anyone who would harm both.
  • Jon: his hand is burned in a confrontation with the revelation of the greatest threat to mankind (wights and Others), before he learns of Robb going to war. Though he cannot fully resist the pull to ride off to Robb, he changes his mind and rides back for CB. Since then, he has done everything he could to protect the realm and smallfolk (including the women and children of the wildlings). He ends up knifed (and thus get multiple disfiguring stab wounds) when he rides to confront Ramsay and his forces (and personally enters the game of thrones).
  • Sandor: already disfigured by the Mountain and thus in a serving role from the onset. He gets additional burning wounds when he fights Beric (and thus the smallfolk). He's ok as long as he aims to guard Arya, but when giving in to drinking, he endangers them both, and must chance his life to keep Arya from falling in the hands of his brother's cronies. There's a potential gelding reference too while he's the gravedigger via his horse Stranger (who resists it).

So, it seems an exercise of a balancing act to serve the realm and smallfolk, as well as being able to put your life on the line for the Stark daughters. The maiming and wounding therefore is very much a "fisher king" element.

 

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14 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sure.  But that does not mean he has told you where his character arc is going.

Sounds to me like confirmation bias.  GRRM's words could mean anything, so you take them as confirmation of what you already believe.  But you have not even said what you already believe, except that you believe that Jaime's arc will not involve further deformation of disfigurement.

Jaime figuring out what he is, now that he lost what he identified himself with and how Jaime changes from that is literally his story in the current books. Jaime even asks this same question to himself over and over again. So I just assume that this theme is going to continue in further books and seems like it indeed is going to be the case, given Martin's comment that I posted. I, of course, don't know what happens in the future, I can only speculate, but if Jaime's story will continue to be about him forging his new self after he lost his old one, then I don't see much point in Jaime's further disfigurement. Seems like all the necessary disfigurement for Jaime's arc has happened already.

14 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

In Jaime's Lancel chapter, Lancel invites Jaime to repent.  Jaime asks if the Seven will give him a new hand.  Lancel says no.  Sounds to me that Jaime rejects repentance.  Perhaps he rejects redemption as well.  Perhaps what will follow is a form of damnation, with further deformation to his body and/or soul.  Perhaps he will get his new golden hand from Rh'llor, the fiery face of the many-faced God of Death, and return as an undead fire-wight with a creepy animated golden hand.

That would make more sense if George was a religious Christian and for whom the path to salvation would only be through Jesus Christ, but he is not, as far as I am aware. He has a Catholic background but he isn't really religious now. Plus Starks, some of his main characters, are not even followers of the Seven, his fictional representation of Christianity, so it doesn't seem like Martin treats the Faith of the Seven as the one true religion, hence I don't think that Jaime refusing to pray to them means anything.

Edited by Dofs

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4 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime figuring out what he is, now that he lost what he identified himself with and how Jaime changes from that is literally his story in the current books. Jaime even asks this same question to himself over and over again. So I just assume that this theme is going to continue in further books and seems like it indeed is going to be the case, given Martin's comment that I posted. I, of course, don't know what happens in the future, I can only speculate, but if Jaime's story will continue to be about him forging his new self after he lost his old one, then I don't see much point in Jaime's further disfigurement. Seems like all the necessary disfigurement for Jaime's arc has happened already.

Again, your theory seems to be that we know all there is to know, and nothing will change in any surprising way, because GRRM would naturally tend to choose words to give away all his surprises.  This, to my mind, is less likely than any of a hundred theories that actually go out on a limb.  Or would be, if there were a significant change that GRRM would finish his story.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

That would make more sense if George was a religious Christian and for whom the path to salvation would only be through Jesus Christ, but he is not, as far as I am aware. He has a Catholic background but he isn't really religious now. Plus Starks, some of his main characters, are not even followers of the Seven, his fictional representation of Christianity, so it doesn't seem like Martin treats the Faith of the Seven as the one true religion, hence I don't think that Jaime refusing to pray to them means anything.

First off, I only mentioned my idea as one of many possibilities that could fit GRRM's words, and are, to my mind, more likely than things staying as they are and nothing surprising occurring.  You seem to concede this possibility fits GRRM's words, and that concedes my point, as far as I'm concerned.

Uh, you seem to be arguing against yourself here.  You inject into the discussion elements that I never mentioned, and then refute them.  I never mentioned Jesus Christ, nor did I argue for exclusivity.  But you reject the possibility of an arguable bit of foreshadowing, merely because Lancel is the messenger.  You associate Lancel with the Faith of the Seven, which you associate with the Roman Catholic Church.  Clearly, you're the one with the exclusive attitudes here, and can't get past the fact Lancel is associated with something you associate with Roman Catholicism, which (I cannot help assuming) you are hostile.

That GRRM is a non-Christian and an agnostic is minimally relevant.  Stanley Kubrick was an atheist, but when he penned the script to "A Clockwork Orange", he put his own opinions in the mouth of a conservative Christian preacher, and expressed those opinions in religious terms to fit the speaker.

But you are right.  The Faith of the Seven is not the same as Roman Catholicism.  It is GRRM's personally hippy-trippy neo-pagan quasi-humanistic rewrite of Roman Catholicism.  He's given it a few quasi-realistic historical warts, but other than that, I see no reason to believe his attitude towards it is generally hostile.  And just because GRRM has rejected the religion of his birth, it does not necessarily follow that he has rejected it with the same vehemence and hatred as many of ideologues who populate this forum.  Quite the contrary, he has expressed some positive things about Roman Catholicism, and apparently does not see his background as entirely without cultural value.  He also has said extremely positive things about the ideals of Chivalry, which he seems to understand arose out of medieval Roman Catholicsm.

So I see no reason to think that GRRM hates Roman Catholicism with such vehemence that he would never every allow a redemption arc, or damnation arc, to be filtered through the lens of quasi-Christian ideas of repentance and redemption, as filtered through his hippy-trippy invention called "The Faith of the Seven".

 

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Jaime's arc is probably the easiest to see at this stage because it is the farthest progressed. It isn't so much a redemption arc, that's a by-product, it is selfishness to servitude.

The King eats and Hand takes the shit is the theme, and Jaime is the character developed to explore it. In service of the greater good some horrible things are going to need to be done, and Jaime is the man for the job. It's there point blank in the Genna passages.
 

Quote

 

His aunt looked at him strangely. "I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."

 

Protector. When everyone else just lets things slide the wrong direction, he'll be the one person who will step up, go against the grain, do the ugly.

Those looking for Jaime to be governed by some moral honourable compass are going to be disappointed. Like how he ended the siege at Riverrun, Jaime's lot is to do the heinous horrible shit, and force himself to smile through it. What has changed is the cause he's acting on behalf of. He used to do it for his love of Cersei, her children, his love of fighting and ego, all selfishness. Now he's coming to act in service of the realm, the king's peace.

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16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Again, your theory seems to be that we know all there is to know, and nothing will change in any surprising way, because GRRM would naturally tend to choose words to give away all his surprises.  This, to my mind, is less likely than any of a hundred theories that actually go out on a limb.  Or would be, if there were a significant change that GRRM would finish his story.

First off, I only mentioned my idea as one of many possibilities that could fit GRRM's words, and are, to my mind, more likely than things staying as they are and nothing surprising occurring.  You seem to concede this possibility fits GRRM's words, and that concedes my point, as far as I'm concerned.

My theory is that George will continue Jaime's character arc that he has been writing for three books already. Nothing more, nothing less, I certainly didn't claim the we know all there is to know, that would be just ridiculous. Also, saying that George completely abandoning Jaime's main character arc is more likely than him not doing it is certainly something that I am not going to agree with.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

First off, I only mentioned my idea as one of many possibilities that could fit GRRM's words, and are, to my mind, more likely than things staying as they are and nothing surprising occurring.  You seem to concede this possibility fits GRRM's words, and that concedes my point, as far as I'm concerned.

Uh, you seem to be arguing against yourself here.  You inject into the discussion elements that I never mentioned, and then refute them.  I never mentioned Jesus Christ, nor did I argue for exclusivity.  But you reject the possibility of an arguable bit of foreshadowing, merely because Lancel is the messenger.  You associate Lancel with the Faith of the Seven, which you associate with the Roman Catholic Church.  Clearly, you're the one with the exclusive attitudes here, and can't get past the fact Lancel is associated with something you associate with Roman Catholicism, which (I cannot help assuming) you are hostile.

That GRRM is a non-Christian and an agnostic is minimally relevant.  Stanley Kubrick was an atheist, but when he penned the script to "A Clockwork Orange", he put his own opinions in the mouth of a conservative Christian preacher, and expressed those opinions in religious terms to fit the speaker.

But you are right.  The Faith of the Seven is not the same as Roman Catholicism.  It is GRRM's personally hippy-trippy neo-pagan quasi-humanistic rewrite of Roman Catholicism.  He's given it a few quasi-realistic historical warts, but other than that, I see no reason to believe his attitude towards it is generally hostile.  And just because GRRM has rejected the religion of his birth, it does not necessarily follow that he has rejected it with the same vehemence and hatred as many of ideologues who populate this forum.  Quite the contrary, he has expressed some positive things about Roman Catholicism, and apparently does not see his background as entirely without cultural value.  He also has said extremely positive things about the ideals of Chivalry, which he seems to understand arose out of medieval Roman Catholicsm.

So I see no reason to think that GRRM hates Roman Catholicism with such vehemence that he would never every allow a redemption arc, or damnation arc, to be filtered through the lens of quasi-Christian ideas of repentance and redemption, as filtered through his hippy-trippy invention called "The Faith of the Seven".

The irony of you accusing me of injecting my own elements into your arguments is the fact that your whole post is based on assuming that I am hostile to Roman Catholicism and that I am claiming that Martin is also hostile to it which I am not and I never did. But if you wanted to make a solid argument that George does not vehemently hate Catholicism, you didn't have to mention Kubrick who is completely irrelevant to George, all you had to do is mention Brienne's chapters, septon Maribald and Quite Isle.

Now, back to my actual point, it's one thing to portray religion in a nuanced way and use it positively in some of the scenes, and completely another to make it necessary for a character to become religious (as Jaime isn't) and having him repent through the fictional version of Christianity (which it is, I am not saying that you say it, I am saying it) be his only path to redemption. Because the letter seems like what a very religious and preachy Christian would do and Martin is just isn't that. But me claiming that he isn't that doesn't mean that he hates Catholicism, as you started to claim out of nowhere. 

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13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Jaime's arc is probably the easiest to see at this stage because it is the farthest progressed. It isn't so much a redemption arc, that's a by-product, it is selfishness to servitude.

I disagree with this. His arc is actually away from servitude and on to selfishness. Before he simply followed what others told him to do, be it Tywin, or Cersei, or Aerys, or his seniors in the Kingsguard. That has been all his life and him starting to think for himself and do what he wants to do is what changed after he lost his hand and reevaluated his life. George isn't subtle about that, this is how he ends his last chapter in Storm:

Quote

 

Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.
Whatever he chose . . .

 

A pretty obvious metaphor that now a time has come for him  to choose what his life is going to be.

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14 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Protector. When everyone else just lets things slide the wrong direction, he'll be the one person who will step up, go against the grain, do the ugly.

Those looking for Jaime to be governed by some moral honourable compass are going to be disappointed. Like how he ended the siege at Riverrun, Jaime's lot is to do the heinous horrible shit, and force himself to smile through it. What has changed is the cause he's acting on behalf of. He used to do it for his love of Cersei, her children, his love of fighting and ego, all selfishness. Now he's coming to act in service of the realm, the king's peace.

My perception of Jaime's character is not just redemption, but also reclaiming himself and his identity. He was considered one of the finest swordsman in the realm and came from one of the most powerful families, so he let that part of his identity dominate his actions. But doesn't mean he was incapable of compassion, empathy or honor. SUre, he did a lot of heinous things, but he was far from cruel and no worse than a lot of the other characters.

I think losing his hand will let bring out his other dormant characteristics, including honor. I don't think service to the realm will guide his actions, he want to govern his own fate, as indicated by the scene with the incomplete page in the white book.

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6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think losing his hand will let bring out his other dormant characteristics, including honor. I don't think service to the realm will guide his actions, he want to govern his own fate, as indicated by the scene with the incomplete page in the white book.

Honour is a horse. It is really clear what is happening because it already is happening.

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Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, "You've seen our numbers, Edmure. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

 

It isn't about honour here, it is a game of harm minimisation at the expense of honour. His honour is his sacrifice and it allows him to restore the king's peace without any of the realm's subjects having to die.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Honour is a horse. It is really clear what is happening because it already is happening.

It isn't about honour here, it is a game of harm minimisation at the expense of honour. His honour is his sacrifice and it allows him to restore the king's peace without any of the realm's subjects having to die.

Part of the reason he went out of his way to not fight the Tullys was to keep his oath to Cat which was indeed about honour, even if no one knows about.

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And he had done his own part here at Riverrun without actually ever taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys.

 

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

His honour is his sacrifice and it allows him to restore the king's peace without any of the realm's subjects having to die.

One cannot sacrifice something that he doesn't have.

 

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5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Honour is a horse. It is really clear what is happening because it already is happening.

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

One cannot sacrifice something that he doesn't have.

What exactly shows to you that Jaime lacks any sense of honor? 

The way I see it, that's the whole thrust of Jaime's arc. He struggle with all the oaths he has sworn, trying to uphold all of them honorably, which he found impossible.

Edited by Apoplexy

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