Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Black Crow

Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Of all the topics to retread - I really hate J=R+L.  Everyone has a passionate argument.  Nobody has a new argument.

 

Even though we've walked and talked the TOJ almost as much, I still feel there is some room to connect what we haven't yet.

1) Why did Aerys order his Kingsguard to Dorne?  I know BC likes to think of the TOJ as the OK corral - "lets fight at yonder abandoned tower at high noon",  This doesn't fully answer the question.  We did not have Ned and Arthur and everyone just sitting around Kings Landing and agree to a duel and just happen to pick somewhere half a continent away.  They plausibly could if they were in Dorne to begin with, but they needed another reason to be in Dorne.

 

2) The most common answer is the KG was there to guard the royal heir.  This has two huge holes:

A) Aerys favored Viserys and would not have wasted disproportionate resources guarding Rheagar's son instead of himself, Rhaella , Rheagar, Viserys and Daenerys.

B If the KG were only there to guard Jon, why would there be a fight?  Even if Ned felt a right to take Lyanna and/or Jon away from his bodyguards, he wouldn't fight life-or-death against them.  

 

3) Why did Ned go to Dorne?  Presumably to get Lyanna (dead or alive) back.  But when and how did he learn Lyanna was in Dorne?  Why would go on a secret mission with a small group of trusted fighters?  At that point, it was clear Robert won or was winning - there should be no need for either secrecy or military.

 

I know BC prefers to believe Jon's 'Starkness' is more important for future events, even if he actually is a hidden Targ.  Jon being hidden Targ relating to the events of Robert's Rebellion does not contradict this.  Efforts to kill, save or keep Jon's Targness shaping past events is completely different from Jon's future - and this whole line of theories is still relevant even if Jon's only future is cremation.

 

Of course, back to where we started, I believe this is what Howland knows and why he is off camera.

Very interesting points and questions. Let me offer my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I was always under the impression that Aerys did not order the Kingsguard to Dorne; he order Gerold Hightower to find Arthur and the other kings guard there (when? I can’t remember the third). Now, the question remains who ordered and why were the other two there. I believe that there was an inner kings guard that was more loyal to Rhaegar than Aerys and that they were in on Rhaegar’s prince that was promised theories.

But why Dorne? Seems odd to take your paramour to your estranged wife’s homeland...I think there is more to this. And how did Ned find out? Another question that I don’t know the answer to. 
 

An unrelated but relevant question that has often puzzled me. Why are many people so resistant to R+L=J? Is it because you (and I say you as in the general sense, not you specifically :) )feel that it is legitimately not correct or is it frustration because people accept it as a foregone conclusion and are resistant to any further discussion? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were extremely important to Aerys. They were his insurance that Rhaegar wouldn’t double-cross him and stage a coup, and it kept a strong hold on Dorne. Keeping them safely guarded and locked in Maegor’s Holdfast would have been Aerys’ utmost priority, and only his very best men would do. Commander Hightower was his most loyal Kingsguard, and as long as Arthur wielded Dawn he was supposed to be indefeatable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m going to bring this response that I just gave earlier to @St Daga over from the last thread as I think it might be relevant to what @Melifeather is saying as well...

 

It’s driving me crazy. There’s a piece of this puzzle that I’m still missing somewhere and I just can’t quite place it. I do agree that as far as ethics go, the Lannisters are totally opposite Ned, which makes them play off of one another well. But I’m also drawn to the idea that there are multiple similarities between Ned and Doran Martell, and wonder what that could mean? It’s almost like you have the exact opposite set up there as well  Ned is the younger brother, but much less explosive, where as with Doran and Oberyn it’s the exact opposite dynamic  maybe that’s who we should be comparing and contrasting as both of those brothers... Brandon and Oberyn were more wild and it led to an early death for both  

The thing about the pale blue sword... It reminds me most of the swords that Daenerys sees in her dreams of the line of ancient Kings and Queens. In that dream, however, the rulers are actually almost cheering her on, lighting her way to get her to safety. Is Brienne there to do the same thing for Jaime? Does Jaime having His own sword, one that has been split into two, signify that he might be more involved in lighting the way for himself along with Brienne’s assistance?

As for the pale blue color, to me I would take it nearly the opposite way as @Brad Stark suggests. To me, it would stand to reason that the more pale the flame, the less the impurity. I mean, isn’t that how fire works in our own world? A wood fire is going to be darker than say a flame from natural gas. As the fuel becomes more pure, the flame becomes more pale.  Also, when you think of it, aren’t the hottest flames actually blue? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were extremely important to Aerys. They were his insurance that Rhaegar wouldn’t double-cross him and stage a coup, and it kept a strong hold on Dorne. Keeping them safely guarded and locked in Maegor’s Holdfast would have been Aerys’ utmost priority, and only his very best men would do. Commander Hightower was his most loyal Kingsguard, and as long as Arthur wielded Dawn he was supposed to be indefeatable. 

This seems awfully similar to how Theon was important to hold onto to prevent the Ironborn from invading Westeros again. Only Ned showed mercy and didn’t think to take Asha. And then Robb was too trusting and sent Theon back into temptation. Or again how the Lannister’s were determined to hold onto, at first Sweet Robin, and then Sansa and Arya. I wonder where Sweet Robin was originally headed? I think maybe he would have originally stayed in King’s Lansing until Stannis came to Jon, and Jon was sending him to Stannis to keep him safe. Just as Viserys went to Dragonstone as well. Unfortunately, Tywin was able to take advantage of Jon Arryn’s death in an attempt to keep Sweet Robin and Secure the allegiance of the Vale. Was this maybe what Rhaegar was doing with Lyanna. Taking her to Dorne to attempt to secure the allegiance of the North? 
 

ETA. Again this makes me wonder if the Lannister’s weren’t originally trying to hold Lyanna too and Rhaegar was able to get her away to use as leverage? The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that @Melifeather may well be correct and she never really was pregnant. Just somehow wounded in battle. It would make more sense of Ned lamenting that his father would not let her carry a sword and then making the opposite choice allowing Arya to be trained. Was Ned able to prevent Arya from the same fate by this decision? Seems like it might be something of an inverse parallel? Ugh. Every time I think I have it figured out, I lose the train of thought. 

Edited by Lady Dyanna
Adding last section

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Very interesting points and questions. Let me offer my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I was always under the impression that Aerys did not order the Kingsguard to Dorne; he order Gerold Hightower to find Arthur and the other kings guard there (when? I can’t remember the third). Now, the question remains who ordered and why were the other two there. I believe that there was an inner kings guard that was more loyal to Rhaegar than Aerys and that they were in on Rhaegar’s prince that was promised theories.

But why Dorne? Seems odd to take your paramour to your estranged wife’s homeland...I think there is more to this. And how did Ned find out? Another question that I don’t know the answer to. 
 

An unrelated but relevant question that has often puzzled me. Why are many people so resistant to R+L=J? Is it because you (and I say you as in the general sense, not you specifically :) )feel that it is legitimately not correct or is it frustration because people accept it as a foregone conclusion and are resistant to any further discussion? 

As to the first, my understanding of the  sequence of events is that Aerys sent Hightower to fetch Prince Rhaegar, Although we're told that no-one knew where Rhaegar was, Ser Gerold doesn't seem to have had a problem finding him.

What then becomes significant is that Rhaegar returns alone, without his two sworn shields and that instead of escorting Rhaegar, Ser Gerold stays behind too. There's a assumption that Rhaegar may have ordered him to do so, but I think this is unlikely. Ser Gerold was acting on the direct orders of the King which always trump any authority claimed by his son. Its more likely therefore that the knights stayed behind on the Lord Commander's [and ultimately the King's] orders.

Why Dorne? There may be something in here relating to an exchange of hostages, but I rather suspect that although Rhaegar was "said" to have referred to the tower of joy [no initial capitals] the supposed happy couple weren't forted up there all the time. I think its more likely that it was a very temporary refuge on the road. Ser Arthur Dayne might have been running for home, but never made it.

As to resisting R+L=J. I don't. While I'm very open to other candidates for Jon's father, starting with Ser Arthur Dayne, I think that on balance it will probably turn out to be Rhaegar. However, where I take issue with the theory is this business of Jon being a "secret Targ" - when what really matters is his mother and his being a son of Winterfell and its mysteries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowhere in canon does it state that Aerys sent Hightower to fetch Rhaegar. 

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the first, my understanding of the  sequence of events is that Aerys sent Hightower to fetch Prince Rhaegar, Although we're told that no-one knew where Rhaegar was, Ser Gerold doesn't seem to have had a problem finding him.

What then becomes significant is that Rhaegar returns alone, without his two sworn shields and that instead of escorting Rhaegar, Ser Gerold stays behind too. There's a assumption that Rhaegar may have ordered him to do so, but I think this is unlikely. Ser Gerold was acting on the direct orders of the King which always trump any authority claimed by his son. Its more likely therefore that the knights stayed behind on the Lord Commander's [and ultimately the King's] orders.

Why Dorne? There may be something in here relating to an exchange of hostages, but I rather suspect that although Rhaegar was "said" to have referred to the tower of joy [no initial capitals] the supposed happy couple weren't forted up there all the time. I think its more likely that it was a very temporary refuge on the road. Ser Arthur Dayne might have been running for home, but never made it.

As to resisting R+L=J. I don't. While I'm very open to other candidates for Jon's father, starting with Ser Arthur Dayne, I think that on balance it will probably turn out to be Rhaegar. However, where I take issue with the theory is this business of Jon being a "secret Targ" - when what really matters is his mother and his being a son of Winterfell and its mysteries

Ah, thank you for clarifying your position. I can understand the frustration that results from people accepting things as foregone conclusions and, as such, assuming the secret prince is the answer to all of our questions and neglecting his stark/winter heritage. A valid gripe 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

No where in canon does it state that Aerys sent Hightower to fetch Rhaegar

I was thinking that it was to find the other Kingsguard and bring them back to kings landing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

As for the pale blue color, to me I would take it nearly the opposite way as @Brad Stark suggests. To me, it would stand to reason that the more pale the flame, the less the impurity. I mean, isn’t that how fire works in our own world? A wood fire is going to be darker than say a flame from natural gas. As the fuel becomes more pure, the flame becomes more pale.  Also, when you think of it, aren’t the hottest flames actually blue?

Actually, the coldest flames are actually pale blue.  This is how fire burns the higher you get in altitude where there is less oxygen.  It also takes longer to cook or boil water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I was thinking that it was to find the other Kingsguard and bring them back to kings landing

The only person Aerys was said to summon was Tywin Lannister. Rhaegar simply “returned” from the south.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The only person Aerys was said to summon was Tywin Lannister. Rhaegar simply “returned” from the south.

I think it is in a Jaime chapter that he remarks that Gerold was not among the Kingsguard that were missing. He left after the fact to find them. Perhaps it was of his own volition then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think it is in a Jaime chapter that he remarks that Gerold was not among the Kingsguard that were missing. He left after the fact to find them. Perhaps it was of his own volition then

Is the following quote the text you are thinking of?

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

"Gold armor?" Her voice sounded far off, faint.
 
He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Melifeather said:

Is the following quote the text you are thinking of?

 

 

Thank you for that but that’s not it. It had to do with Hightower specifically

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Thank you for that but that’s not it. It had to do with Hightower specifically

You can search the text with this search engine. Just insert any key words you remember into: https://asearchoficeandfire.com

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only book that spun the tale that Hightower left to fetch Rhaegar is the semi-canon World book, but I would be remiss if I failed to point out that GRRM said the history book was compiled by Maester Yandel as a gift to Robert Baratheon, and that it portrayed a history pleasing to the new king.

Of course the narrative would support the assumption that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna which would necessitate the creation of speculative logistics.

 

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The only book that spun the tale that Hightower left to fetch Rhaegar is the semi-canon World book, but I would be remiss if I failed to point out that GRRM said the history book was compiled by Maester Yandel as a gift to Robert Baratheon, and that it portrayed a history pleasing to the new king.

Of course the narrative would support the assumption that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna which would necessitate the creation of speculative logistics.

 

Oh! I remember! It isn’t a direct quote but an inference. Now I am expecting you to disagree :) because I know we have differing opinions on the location of the tower and Lyanna’s location.

when Aerys was burning people (specifically after the Starks I believe), Jaime reflects that Hightower told him his job is to guard the king, not to judge the king. This means that Hightower was in Kings Landing at the start of the rebellion but by the end, he is said to be at the tower of joy in Dorne so at a certain point, he had to have left 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh! I remember! It isn’t a direct quote but an inference. Now I am expecting you to disagree :) because I know we have differing opinions on the location of the tower and Lyanna’s location.

when Aerys was burning people (specifically after the Starks I believe), Jaime reflects that Hightower told him his job is to guard the king, not to judge the king. This means that Hightower was in Kings Landing at the start of the rebellion but by the end, he is said to be at the tower of joy in Dorne so at a certain point, he had to have left 

The quote that seems to fit what you are describing is this one:

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself.
 
"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

 

 


Jaime's memory takes place during Rickard and Brandon's trial by battle prior to the Rebellion.

If you know of any text other than Ned's fever dream that places Hightower in Dorne, whether outright or inferred, then that would be quite  definitive, but such text does not exist.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m going to bring this response that I just gave earlier to @St Daga over from the last thread as I think it might be relevant to what @Melifeather is saying as well...

I will comment over hear since the other thread is wrapping down. I hope I don't distract from the conversation already in place.

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It’s driving me crazy. There’s a piece of this puzzle that I’m still missing somewhere and I just can’t quite place it. I do agree that as far as ethics go, the Lannisters are totally opposite Ned, which makes them play off of one another well. But I’m also drawn to the idea that there are multiple similarities between Ned and Doran Martell, and wonder what that could mean? It’s almost like you have the exact opposite set up there as well  Ned is the younger brother, but much less explosive, where as with Doran and Oberyn it’s the exact opposite dynamic  maybe that’s who we should be comparing and contrasting as both of those brothers... Brandon and Oberyn were more wild and it led to an early death for both  

The thing about the pale blue sword... It reminds me most of the swords that Daenerys sees in her dreams of the line of ancient Kings and Queens. In that dream, however, the rulers are actually almost cheering her on, lighting her way to get her to safety. Is Brienne there to do the same thing for Jaime? Does Jaime having His own sword, one that has been split into two, signify that he might be more involved in lighting the way for himself along with Brienne’s assistance?

As for the pale blue color, to me I would take it nearly the opposite way as @Brad Stark suggests. To me, it would stand to reason that the more pale the flame, the less the impurity. I mean, isn’t that how fire works in our own world? A wood fire is going to be darker than say a flame from natural gas. As the fuel becomes more pure, the flame becomes more pale.  Also, when you think of it, aren’t the hottest flames actually blue? 

I see what you are saying about how the north and south are opposites, and therefore the brother combinations of the north and south might be in opposition themselves. Yet I don't find Ned very like Doran at all. And while Oberyn died, he wasn't really a young man, and he already had multiple children he was grooming. He was actually older than Ned when he died. I tend to look at the Lannister's (mostly Jaime and Ned in comparison) because they are the family that is opposed to the Stark's in the first book. We learn so much about Dorne in later books, although we do get Oberyn and his retinue pretty early in Storm. 

However, you are certainly correct in the idea that there is much to contrast and compare with Dorne and the North. These are kingdoms that are more independent and less like the rest of the 7K. Their people might be wilder, more prone to follow their instincts. I am wondering though if the characters we are meant to contrast are Doran and Rickard. Both men seem to play long games and seem willing to use (and perhaps even sacrifice) their children for some great goal.

As to Jaime and Brienne, I know the interpretation is that the dream swords are representations of Oathbreaker and Widow's Wail, and the blue color stems from them being part of Ice, but I am beginning to question if we are being mislead. I can't help but remember how tricky GRRM is. I have questioned if Dawn was somehow broken and if it could be reforged. Because what Cersei says to Jaime in his fever dream about his sword's flame, reminds me of Ned seeing Dawn in his fever dream. "The flames will burn as long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you." In some way, Arthur Dayne's death seems linked to his sword, or at least to some interaction with Ned Stark. We are told SAD is dead and his sword was returned to Starfall. We are not told what condition that sword was in. Jaime is quite linked to Arthur Dayne, in training, in admiration, in Jaime wanting to be SAD. So, is Jaime linked in some way to SAD's sword, a sword that drew his blood when he  was knighted?

While I have also tied what has become of Ice to these dream swords of Jaime's, the imagery doesn't really fit. Ice is a dark grey it's almost black (like Jon's eyes), certainly not silver or blue, and when we see the sword's metal again, it is tied to the color red, like blood. Swords likened to Night and Blood! There is nothing to indicate that Ice is silver-blue metal or a blue flame, not in it's early or later forms. The only tie I see, and it's not physical, is there is perhaps a tie between Ned losing his sword and his death following quite closely.

Dany's dream swords do seem more alike Jaime's dream swords, or perhaps even Dawn, than any Valyrian steel we are introduced to. And one time "pale fire" is used besides Dany's dream swords is to the fire that Quentyn see's burning behind the black dagger's of Viserion's teeth. A white dragon with pale fire.

As to blue flames, I believe they are the hottest flames, hotter even than a white flame. I am sure GRRM is well aware of that. And it also tells us early in the story that "nothing burns like the cold" and ties blue to the icy eyes of the Other's. Of course, extreme cold and blue hot flame should be in contradiction, but GRRM does seem to want to forge his own path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The quote that seems to fit what you are describing is this one:

 

 


Jaime's memory takes place during Rickard and Brandon's trial by battle prior to the Rebellion.

If you know of any text other than Ned's fever dream that places Hightower in Dorne, whether outright or inferred, then that would be quite  definitive, but such text does not exist.

 

Thank you for that quote!!! I appreciate it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Actually, the coldest flames are actually pale blue.  This is how fire burns the higher you get in altitude where there is less oxygen.  It also takes longer to cook or boil water.

Hmmm. Well, I just did a little research. Apparently there are multiple variables in determining the color of a flame. Everything from the material being burned, to the density of the oxygen in the air, to the actual temperature itself. After that you’d pretty much just follow the color wheel. Anyways there’s a number of articles here https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/search-results.php?cx=013966350305008885440%3Anegt_7dplsa&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Flame+color&sa=Search+for+your+answer 

Each seems to answer a part of the question. I checked Wikipedia to see if there was a good summary available, but whomever wrote up the last version made it insanely technical. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...