Green vs. Black

[Seams]

This is a symbolism discussion, but it needs plot points as input. If you can contribute either way, please do.

I'm trying to sort out whether GRRM has given us clues about the Game (of thrones) in his use of the colors green and black. Collecting examples of green and black might help us to get to the bottom of some important conflicts in the book, as well as the Dance of the Dragons with the green and black factions (supposedly named after the dresses worn by the queen and the princess at the center of the rival Targ factions). 

For instance:

• The battle of the Blackwater involves the use of wild fire, which is green. 
• Renly wears green armor and is associated with green when he marries into the Tyrell / Highgarden family. Is Stannis strongly associated with black, aside from his fringe of black hair?

I'm listening to the audiobook of AFfC and I noticed a possible "green vs. black" juxtaposition of an Asha detail in relation to an earlier passage involving Theon:

"Kneel. Or are you too proud now, a lordling of the green lands come among us?"
Theon knelt. He had a purpose here, and might need Aeron's help to achieve it. A crown was worth a little mud and horseshit on his breeches, he supposed. 
"Bow your head." Lifting the skin, his uncle pulled the cork and directed a thin stream of seawater down upon Theon's head. It drenched his hair and ran over his forehead into his eyes. Sheets washed down his cheeks, and a finger crept under his cloak and doublet and down his back, a cold rivulet along his spine. 

[ACoK, Chap. 11, Theon I]

Asha sails a ship called Black Wind. Here is another key passage:

"... You look so lovely in the moonlight, Asha. A woman grown now, but I remember when you were a skinny girl with a face all full of pimples."
Why must they always mention the pimples? "I remember that as well." Though not as fondly as you do. Of the five boys her mother had brought to Pyke to foster after Ned Stark had taken her last living son as hostage, Tris had been closest to Asha in age. He had not been the first boy she had ever kissed, but he was the first to undo the laces of her jerkin and slip a sweaty hand beneath to feel her budding breasts. 
... Not long after, Maester Qalen found them at their play, and young Tristifer Botley was sent away to Blacktyde. 

[AFfC, Chap. 11, The Kraken's Daughter]

Aside from the green and black imagery, I've highlighted a few other words that may be clues for us:

• Tristifer Botley shares a name with the ancient king, Tristifer Mudd. Theon gets mud on his pants when he kneels for Aeron. 
• The seawater creeps into Theon's shirt similar to Tristifer's sweaty hand creeping into Asha's shirt. 
• After the Kraken's Daughter chapter, GRRM gives us a Cersei POV in which she happily remembers that suckling Joffrey for the first time felt better than any sexual encounter she had had. I suspect that GRRM is offering a little wordplay on pimple (in the Asha POV) and nipple to get us to compare Tristifer and Joffrey. 

If Theon and Asha are replaying a version of the Dance of the Dragons in their pursuit of the Seastone Chair, what comparisons can we make for Tristifer Botley and Aeron Greyjoy in the parallel? Are they both kingmakers, like Criston Cole? 

Can you offer other examples of green vs. black rivalries that might help us to decode these symbols?

Bonus if you can connect mud or something creeping inside of a shirt to the green / black pair. I suppose the shadow weapon that killed Renly might fit the description of the creeping hand . . . 

[kissdbyfire]

I was just going through Renly’s death the other day, and when I saw your thread I remembered something. I don’t think it’s the sort of thing you’re looking for, but here it is. 

ACoK, Catelyn IV

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadow sword . . .

[Seams]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

black on green

This is excellent! Catelyn initially perceives the shadow to be Renly's shadow. Maybe the "black on green" description is telling us that it is the opposite of Renly's armor, which is green on the outside. 

Maybe the Renly vs. Stannis conflict represents the dividing of green and black, and they had been united up to that point?

Initially, I read your quoted passage as describing "black on green candles," and it reminded me of the black and green dragonglass candles mentioned in Marwin's chambers at Oldtown. 

These are great examples! Thanks for getting the ball rolling. 

[Hugorfonics]

Tyrions eyes?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you're looking for;

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert's feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him. A green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death. (Ned XIII, AGoT 47)

.

Tyrion has one green eye and one black eye.

.

House Mormont's sigil is a black bear on a dark green field.

.

Shaggydog;

His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. (Bran IV, AGoT 24)

Shaggydog had come slavering out of the darkness like a green-eyed demon. (Bran VI, AGoT 53)

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. (Bran VII, AGoT 66)

.

There's Steelskin who has green and black ancient Valyrian sorcerer's signs that are supposed to make his skin and flesh as hard as steel.

The pyramid of Naqqan in Meereen is green-and-black.

Victarion's cut on his hand is green-and-black

When Sansa looks at the Hound's during the battle of the Blackwater, for a moment he's black and green.

[Narsil4]

Hmm, if it follows Mel's use of symbolism, Black should correspond to Ice and Green to Fire. 

Black and Green = Ice and Fire  
Green and Black = Fire and Ice  

[Lollygag]

Probably should keep in mind that the Blackfyre stuff didn't exist yet when the story started, so it should be considered that earlier stuff might best be interpreted differently than later content.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151105-the-george-did-not-have-the%C2%A0blackfyre%C2%A0subplot-already-in-mind-when-he-wrote-game/

For example, Tyrion's eyes are green and black and have been so from the beginning. If his eyes have symbolic meaning about the Game, it's something separate from the Blackfyre storyline which didn't exist yet though meaning referring to the Blackfyre storyline may have been grafted later on.

[ravenous reader]

Color symbolism is tricky. How do you account for the 'grey-green' continuum?

How does 'black' figure into this schema?

I think black represents the hyphen between green and grey!  Black is the burning of green, leaving the grey residue of ash in its aftermath.

 

[Gingin]

The Greyjoy banner is a golden kraken on a black field. The Tyrell banner is a golden rose on a green field. Currently, the Ironborn, ruled by the Greyjoys, are attacking the Reach, ruled by the Tyrells.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think black represents the hyphen between green and grey!  Black is the burning of green, leaving the grey residue of ash in its aftermath.

 

This is very interesting! From ACOK:

Quote

Stark is grey and Greyjoy's black

And also:

Quote

The water below turned from green to grey to black.

 

[Seams]

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Probably should keep in mind that the Blackfyre stuff didn't exist yet when the story started, so it should be considered that earlier stuff might best be interpreted differently than later content.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151105-the-george-did-not-have-the blackfyre subplot-already-in-mind-when-he-wrote-game/

For example, Tyrion's eyes are green and black and have been so from the beginning. If his eyes have symbolic meaning about the Game, it's something separate from the Blackfyre storyline which didn't exist yet though meaning referring to the Blackfyre storyline may have been grafted later on.

I was very conscious of this as I started this thread. My working guess is that the black vs. green enmity or conflict really was in place before GRRM started writing (or before he got very far into the books) even though the Blackfyre backstory was not yet fleshed out. In other words, the Blackfyre schism is an example of the split, not the origin of the green / black juxtaposition. 

11 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

Hmm, if it follows Mel's use of symbolism, Black should correspond to Ice and Green to Fire. 

Black and Green = Ice and Fire  
Green and Black = Fire and Ice  

Can you point me to a passage in the books that presents this color code? I like it. 

12 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know if this is the sort of thing you're looking for;

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert's feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him. A green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death. (Ned XIII, AGoT 47)

.

Tyrion has one green eye and one black eye.

.

House Mormont's sigil is a black bear on a dark green field.

.

Shaggydog;

His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. (Bran IV, AGoT 24)

Shaggydog had come slavering out of the darkness like a green-eyed demon. (Bran VI, AGoT 53)

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. (Bran VII, AGoT 66)

.

There's Steelskin who has green and black ancient Valyrian sorcerer's signs that are supposed to make his skin and flesh as hard as steel.

The pyramid of Naqqan in Meereen is green-and-black.

Victarion's cut on his hand is green-and-black

When Sansa looks at the Hound's during the battle of the Blackwater, for a moment he's black and green.

Terrific examples. Some of these might support the notion that black and green are at rest when they are in balance or coexist peacefully: the Mormont sigil or Tyrion's eyes. (I suppose one could argue that Tyrion is a sort of tortured genius and his eyes reflect imbalance.) 

In other cases, I think the colors have been split apart and they come into conflict. 

But I'm still in the early stages of sorting this out so those tentative ideas may be premature.

Cersei and her children wear black diamonds when they want to appear regal - on their crowns or (in Cersei's case) in a hairnet. But Cersei also wears emeralds at strategic points. 

[Narsil4]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Can you point me to a passage in the books that presents this color code? I like it. 

Mel sets up the duality with passages like this.

Quote

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

 

Ice	Fire
Night	Day
Dark	Bright
Black	White
Hate	Love
Bitter	Sweet
Male	Female
Pain	Pleasure
Winter	Summer
Evil	Good
Death	Life

Then lines like these seem to suggest Green would be associated with light/fire/etc.

Quote

Black, they seemed . . . it was only when his torchlight brushed against them that Jon glimpsed a flash of green.

Quote

Now there was only Shaggy dog, rumbling at the small man, his eyes burning like green fire.

So it might fit in like this.. 

Yin	Balance	Yang
Ice		Fire
Black	Grey	White
		Green

Green/White on Black = ✪
Black on Green/White = ⍟

[Lost Melnibonean]

Here's an old thread you might find interesting...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/104104-green-and-black/

[Seams]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Here's an old thread you might find interesting...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/104104-green-and-black/

Thanks for digging this up and sharing it! The op and many of your subsequent comments are on point; much of the discussion, unfortunately, went off-topic. 

I don't agree with the person who concluded that black always represents the legitimate heirs while green always represents usurpers. I suspect there is something much more elemental in the symbolism than the legitimacy of a monarchy. 

Next time I am at a computer that can access the Search of Ice and Fire website, I am going to look more closely at the context of those examples in your link. See if I can find surrounding details that will help to explain these green / black pairings.

Thanks!

[Springwatch]

On 12/31/2019 at 5:50 PM, Narsil4 said:

Mel sets up the duality with passages like this.

 

Ice	Fire
Night	Day
Dark	Bright
Black	White
Hate	Love
Bitter	Sweet
Male	Female
Pain	Pleasure
Winter	Summer
Evil	Good
Death	Life

Then lines like these seem to suggest Green would be associated with light/fire/etc.

So it might fit in like this.. 

 

Yin	Balance	Yang
Ice		Fire
Black	Grey	White
		Green

Green/White on Black = ✪
Black on Green/White = ⍟

Interesting. I like Mel - if she's not right, at least she's wrong in quite a profound way. 'Everywhere, the war....' and the grey middle gets squeezed out of the picture. (Reminds me of the common people constantly torn apart by the high lords and their game of thrones.)

There's one counter-example to the the green fire though, and it's Cersei. She loves wildfire, but in herself she's cold: The queen's eyes were green ice.

 

[Springwatch]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:47 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I was just going through Renly’s death the other day, and when I saw your thread I remembered something. I don’t think it’s the sort of thing you’re looking for, but here it is. 

ACoK, Catelyn IV

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadow sword . . .

Me too. And there's more interesting things going on with colour either side of that scene - not exactly what you asked for @Seams, but seems to show the effect of the black/green conflict:

Quote

... The long ranks of man and horse were armored in darkness, as black as if the Smith had hammered night itself into steel. There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly's shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. Where Storm's End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp.

The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light....

After the death of Renly, Catelyn sees this:

Quote

As the long fingers of dawn fanned across the fields color was returning to the world. Where grey men had sat grey horses armed with shadow spears, the points of ten thousand lances now glinted silverly cold, and on the myriad flapping banners Catelyn saw the blush of red and pink and orange, the richness of blues and browns, the blaze of gold and yellow. All the power of Storm's End and Highgarden, the power that had been Renly's an hour ago. They belong to Stannis now...

[ACOK - CATELYN IV]

There is no green in Stannis' new army. Very odd.

ETA

1. Stannis as AA is looking great. Mel really did see something in him.
2. Magic castles - reminds that there is a very similar progression of colour in Sansa's cloud castles.

[Narsil4]

50 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

the grey middle gets squeezed out of the picture.

Yea, she seems to ignore the shades in-between the extremes. So I would consider her views to be at least partially correct, though missing a important piece of the larger picture. 

Much like how she seems to be trying to perform the same ritual as Dany, but with flaming swords instead of dragon eggs. 

50 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The queen's eyes were green ice.

Hmm, the symbolism may just be generally true, in the sense that much of it may be based on individual belief. Similar to the riddle Varys promotes. Which ends up being really confusing to try and understand. 

Icebergs were thought to be emerald-green due to organic matter within them. Which absorbed the red and blue light. So there might be something related there. 

[Springwatch]

29 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Hmm, the symbolism may just be generally true, in the sense that much of it may be based on individual belief. Similar to the riddle Varys promotes. Which ends up being really confusing to try and understand. 

Cersei is always difficult.

29 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Icebergs were thought to be emerald-green due to organic matter within them. Which absorbed the red and blue light. So there might be something related there. 

Nice thought. I'm very attached to the theory that ice, as a crystal, is not anti-life at all, but a way of preserving life. Trapping the light, the colour. What that does for Mel's dualities, I do not know.

[Narsil4]

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm very attached to the theory that ice, as a crystal, is not anti-life at all, but a way of preserving life. Trapping the light, the colour.

I sort of think of it in terms of Order(Ice/Death/Darkness) and Chaos(Fire/Life/Light). 

So much like a firepit or stone egg, the ordered stone/crystal preserves and contains the chaotic flames. Though the stone/crystal itself is not living. 

Quote

What that does for Mel's dualities, I do not know.

I'm honestly not really sure. Though there does seem to be a 3 Head vs 1 Tail implication.

Which makes me think there is some sort of Peace Symbol/Trident relevance. ☮

Quote

does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast

So it might be the main colors of the 3 Dragons are considered opposed to the symbolism of the Red Tail. 

[Seams]

22 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Me too. And there's more interesting things going on with colour either side of that scene - not exactly what you asked for @Seams, but seems to show the effect of the black/green conflict:

After the death of Renly, Catelyn sees this:

There is no green in Stannis' new army. Very odd.

ETA

1. Stannis as AA is looking great. Mel really did see something in him.
2. Magic castles - reminds that there is a very similar progression of colour in Sansa's cloud castles.

Catelyn is the most rainbow-linked character in the books. Her overview of the army follows several scenes where she prays in a sept and sees rainbows cast on the walls. In other words, I don't see this "army at dawn" scene as a unique green vs. black scene, although that could be part of it.

I love your observation that there is no green in Stannis' new army! This could be a key point. Trees and growing things are associated with green. Although Stannis married a Florent from the Reach, he does not seem to love her, avoids sleeping with her and his only child with her turns to stone. We also see Melisandre burning wooden figures of the new gods, relics that had been treasures of the newly-arrived Targaryens at Dragonstone (the wooden figures were carved from masts of the ships that brought them from Valyria). Tree haters = no green.

I am leaning more and more toward an interpretation of King Robert achieving with his rule some kind of balance between opposites or forces of nature - I think The Storm God and Garth Greenhands are two of these opposing forces that must be balanced. When Robert died, Renly represented the green side and Stannis represented the storm side. There was a moment when they might have come up with a shared plan to rule together, but the shadow that kills Renly ensures that the balance is lost. However, Stannis has no green so he cannot reestablish that balance on his own.

I appreciate the various comments people have made about the role of grey in this color symbolism. I don't think GRRM is using it as the simple combination of black and white extremes to create grey areas. My current thought is that grey is the color of smelted metal: characters who are being "reforged" turn grey before being hammered out in a new shape with a new color. But this, too, may be off in the wrong direction or oversimplifying GRRM's intention.

In my current "re-read" of the AFfC audiobook, I may have discovered more about the meaning of mud. In the travels through the Riverlands, Septon Meribald gives oranges to smallfolk who present him with clams dug from the local mud flats, even though clams are common and oranges are rare and special. Then Podrick Payne attempts to go foraging and comes back empty-handed but with mud up to his knees. Septon Meribald tells him not to venture out on the mud flats because the mud doesn't like strangers (i.e., only local people know how to safely find paths through the mud).

I suspect there is a parallel between Pod's muddy knees and Theon's muddy knee in the saltwater baptism scene I mentioned earlier, which is also parallel to Thorren Stark taking a knee before Aegon the Conqueror. Mud seems to be a mediating substance that is used in transforming characters to a new state of being. Will this function be true for all things brown, or is it unique to mud?

Still undigested, but just to add to the possible string of mud and color symbols, the next AFfC chapter (or a nearby chapter) describes the meeting of Arya (as Cat of the Canals) and Sam Tarly in Braavos. Arya gives Sam some clams. Sam is unable to budge colorfully-dressed Night's Watch brother Dareon from his wedding plan with the Widow of the Waterfront and Sam ends up nearly drowning in a canal until a Summer Islander rescues him (ruining his feather cape in the process). So the black-clad Sam is contrasted with Dareon's fancy clothes and the cape of the Summer Islander. He has both the dirty-water baptism and nourishment (clams) from the mud. There is also a lot of discussion of the lack of wood for making a fire in their rented room, which may bring us back to the green/tree-burning symbolism.

[Narsil4]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I don't think GRRM is using it as the simple combination of black and white extremes to create grey areas.

Davos himself suggests that Grey is the Balance between the extremes and Mel tries to discount the idea. So I suspect the concept is fairly important to integrate into the overall symbolic structure.

Quote

Would a good man be doing this? "I am a man," he said. "I am kind to my wife, but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help make them a place in this world. Aye, I've broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad."

"A grey man," she said. "Neither white nor black, but partaking of both. Is that what you are, Ser Davos?"

"What if I am? It seems to me that most men are grey."

"If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil."

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

My current thought is that grey is the color of smelted metal: characters who are being "reforged" turn grey before being hammered out in a new shape with a new color.

The forging and tempering might be considered to be a Grey process using both Fire and Ice. 

Quote

When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel.