The Starks

[Nagini's Neville]

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Your heart and history may be dark, but I believe one layer of goodness can shine.

As is your right to believe so  

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Hm, idk. I agree theres a limit, at least for myself, but idk if there should be.

That's definitely up for debate

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Theon can still do good in this world, and it seems a shame rob the world of goodness because of the past

I have no problem with Theon doing goodness, I definitely don't want him to do more badness (how's my proper speech?  ), I'll just never see him as a good human being or ever care for him. 

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I just don't see why Vic would marry her unless there was some type of feelings going on when he could have had her either way, like as a concubine.

I'm not suggesting that he didn't love her (who knows? don't really care) or abused her beforehand, just, that he murdered her.

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Salt wives is certainly very polygamist with a hierarchy so that's pretty awful, but I dont think its fair to write off every salt wife as a rape victim. Like its still marriage, right? Im sure Oberyns girlfriend would have loved the stability. Or Darrio who has no interest in being king, just her lover. 

yeah, Wtf, who knows? Since I don't have a specific example here rn... otherwise I'd have to go through every arranged marriage as well...gregor's wives and ramsay's victims as I said list god on and on...

[Ygrain]

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So that is your evidence, that it wasn't rape, because Euron said so? To bad she is dead an won't be able to tell her side of the story

Yeah, the very fact that Euron claims a thing instantly makes me disbelieve.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

guess he could have wrote him, sent ravens to WFs maester (though he doesn't trust maesters cuz theyre conniving at worst and useless at best to which Balon learned personally through the death of his brother).

Sure but that isn't Theon's fault. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, that seems strange to me, to keep an open dialogue with his sons killer. Sure he could have been like "this letters not for you Ned but for Theon" but you know Ned (and Luwin) would read it, plus it looks kinda soft in the eyes of his constituents

Well I don't mean for Balon to write anything secret in the letters. Just a letter, now & again, addressed to Theon. Just so he knows he wasn't forgotten about. I don't know if staying in contact with your only remaining son would be seen as soft. Maybe by the IB but maybe his mom could have written him? I just feel bad for the dude. Taken prisoner from his family, left to be raised amongst strangers without a single sign that his real family gives a shit. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theon was taken at, like what, 10? He still remembered his heritage, he was like Bran or Aryas age. 

I thought 8 but I might be wrong. Yeah he remembers some of it but he hasn't had constant reminders of it like someone who is living there does. He doesn't get the chance to practice it until he leaves the Starks so it doesn't seem so crazy to me that he jacked it up some. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And he came across to Balon pretty disrespectfully, for sure we can understand Theon for not thinking about it, but I think we can understand Balons anger too

For sure. He was an arrogant little punk.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. I think Theon was mistaken. Balon had reason to distrust Theon, plus had no idea of his prowess in contrast to Asha or Victarion

Yeah I think he was mistaken also. I think Balon was trying to give him a chance, I just don't think that's how Theon viewed it. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, I think loyalty pulled Theon in two different directions but revenge in just one. Defeating WF and regaining his honor was what pushed him to his actions

Yeah, that's a good point. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

disagree, being raised under the sword and clearly not being raised as a foster son is worse then a few slaps. (Not condoning slapping kids, my folks did that, it wasnt great lol, I wouldn't do that to mine, but I dont think its like a deal breaker, being belittled for fucking up either, but yea not great

I see what you're saying. No matter how comfortable he was there was always that sword hanging over his head, even if only in the back of his mind. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We are not onions

Speak for yourself. 

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Your heart and history may be dark, but I believe one layer of goodness can shine

I agree. I don't think anyone is ever totally beyond redemption. They may not get my forgiveness but my forgiveness isn't necessary for their redemption. 

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

Arya & the Hound are the best. Not in a morally good way, of course but my favorite interactions. 

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

 

33 minutes ago, Gingin said:

I believe that the right to life entails a lot of other rights and the right to hope is one of them. This right should be conceded even to lifers: they should have the possibility of social rehabilitation and of the review of their penalty (which doesn’t necessarily mean a pardon), otherwise it would be like denying an aspect of their own humanity.

 I agree

33 minutes ago, Gingin said:

 

@Hugorfonics wait, that’s the opinion of Euron. We will never know the whole truth unless GRRM decides to write about that again.

 

38 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So that is your evidence, that it wasn't rape, because Euron said so? To bad she is dead an won't be able to tell her side of the story

Yo, thats mad circumstantial! He said she came to him. Vic never seems to doubt it. Theres really zero proof

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

As is your right to believe so  

Yeah, Im a sucker lol

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I have no problem with Theon doing goodness, I definitely don't want him to do more badness (how's my proper speech?  ), I'll just never see him as a good human being or ever care for him. 

As is your right to believe so (though didnt you say something similar about Tyrion...)

(Lol, it's not extra much. How about wickedness? Or wrong or evil? Or hysterically evil?)

27 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm not suggesting that he didn't love her (who knows? don't really care) or abused her beforehand, just, that he murdered her.

Cold fucking bloodied. 1st degree

28 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, Wtf, who knows? Since I don't have a specific example here rn... otherwise I'd have to go through every arranged marriage as well...gregor's wives and ramsay's victims as I said list god on and on...

Yeah they all suck by and large anyway. Like Euron, even though we cant condemn him for the rape (as if fucking your sister in law isnt wrong by itself) theres a thousand other crimes we can judge him on and his Westerosi like

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure but that isn't Theon's fault. 

Well I don't mean for Balon to write anything secret in the letters. Just a letter, now & again, addressed to Theon. Just so he knows he wasn't forgotten about. I don't know if staying in contact with your only remaining son would be seen as soft. Maybe by the IB but maybe his mom could have written him? I just feel bad for the dude. Taken prisoner from his family, left to be raised amongst strangers without a single sign that his real family gives a shit. 

Ok, so could she have written? His mom totally lost it when Theon was taken from her. I feel like she would have done her best to see him. Although she didnt, so... Sad. Maybe Balon forbid it, maybe Ned never delivered them, who knows?

(I meant that writing to WF in itself would look soft, to say its not for Ned but Theon may come across as a ploy and the ironborn may think hes trying to curry favor with Ned)

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I thought 8 but I might be wrong. Yeah he remembers some of it but he hasn't had constant reminders of it like someone who is living there does. He doesn't get the chance to practice it until he leaves the Starks so it doesn't seem so crazy to me that he jacked it up some. 

Idk, 8 sounds good. He certainly lost his religion and forgot about wearing bought jewelry but the rest of the cultures pretty similar. Collect taxes from the weak and kill bandits and enemies.

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see what you're saying. No matter how comfortable he was there was always that sword hanging over his head, even if only in the back of his mind. 

Word. Or in his face like the first chapter of Thrones. When Theons dribbling the head like a soccer ball. Fucking horrible at first sight, but that could be him at any moment. So, to make light of his own impending execution, you know, I like dark humor lol. 

(I also wanna backtrack on my post. Balon was too belittling for my comfort. Certainly not great in the reconciliation department)

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Speak for yourself. 

I will not. You are not an onion. Im sorry if im like crushing your dream or something

 

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. I don't think anyone is ever totally beyond redemption. They may not get my forgiveness but my forgiveness isn't necessary for their redemption. 

Interesting. Thats a valid point

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Arya & the Hound are the best. Not in a morally good way, of course but my favorite interactions. 

They're priceless. Roaming Westeros like Dunk and Egg, except a little different lol. 

Part of me wants SanSan to happen just so Sansa can be like "Aryas coming over for dinner" Sandor would be like, "not the little wolf bitch!" :insert laugh track here: it could be a sitcom on NBC

[Gingin]

In ACOK:

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A memory prodded at Theon. In one of his rare curt letters, Lord Balon had written of his youngest brother going down in a storm, and turning holy when he washed up safe on shore.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, Gingin said:

I believe that the right to life entails a lot of other rights and the right to hope is one of them. This right should be conceded even to lifers: they should have the possibility of social rehabilitation and of the review of their penalty (which doesn’t necessarily mean a pardon), otherwise it would be like denying an aspect of their own humanity.

@Hugorfonics wait, that’s the opinion of Euron. We will never know the whole truth unless GRRM decides to write about that again.

 

What's lifers please? Having to stay in prison for life?

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the review of their penalty

but with certain crimes, that will never be possible

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they should have the possibility of social rehabilitation

social rehabilitation within prison, then?

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I believe that the right to life entails a lot of other rights and the right to hope is one of them.....

otherwise it would be like denying an aspect of their own humanity.

 

maybe I didn't express myself the right way. I'm against the death penalty and against imprisonment as punishment(as it is actually always the case), I'm for imprisonment to keep the public safe. I'm against prison sentences for non violent offenses.

I'm not for abusing ppl in prison, punishing them, stripping them of their humanity, hope or dignity. I'm not content with the prison systems at all. IMO inmates aren't treated, with enough humanity at all and it's helping no one.

All I'm saying is that there are certain crimes I can not forgive, no matter how much good the person has additionally done or possibly will do in the future. A parent, who has severely sexually abused all of their children all their lives might have been a doctor without borders, helping millions of ppl, saving their lives, but for me they will forever be a rotten onion, I'll always see them as a bad person and never care for them or have empathy for them. Does that mean I want them to be treated badly in prison, without dignity, humanity or hope etc.? Absolutely not. I also don't want them to be imprisoned as a punishment, but to keep the public save and for them to never be released again, since sex offender are usually serial offender.

My personal line is highly subjective of course and I never said that it's right to think the way I do and everyone should. When that line is crossed differs from case to case and upbringing and motivation of the offenders, situation etc all play a role. 

I'm not saying, that I'm right, I guess that I just really know myself to know which crimes are just crossing the line for me and I'm not able to see that person anymore as a good person or a semi-good person, even, if I wanted to. And in asoiaf the line is usually crossed for me, when it comes to rape/sexual abuse, torture or murder of an innocent defenseless person, when them staying alive would have absolutely no consequences for the killer at all and they also must know of their innocence. This is of course extremely subjective criteria and I totally understand, if other's differs from mine.

 

[Gingin]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Having to stay in prison for life?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but with certain crimes, that will never be possible

On the basis of “compassionate grounds”, in some systems a lifer who is old or ill ,for instance, can be allowed to serve his sentence in another place which is different than jail. This would be a review.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

social rehabilitation within prison, then?

Yes. For example, I think of lifers/prisoners who talk and spend times with young people/students, sharing their experience and what they have learned from it with them. This is a contribution to their community even if they are still in prison.

Another example of social rehabilitation within prison: family visits, for lifers or not. A country that denies them goes against what should be the scope of a just punishment, i.e. re-education and rehabilitation of prisoners, because family visits are a form of social contact and therefore reintegration. Sure, some prisoners are too dangerous and there are cases in which these visits cannot be granted, but it would be wrong to impose to everybody this denial. 

 

Your point of view is clear, it is I who should have expressed myself better, I’m sorry. In my opinion, all those who have committed a crime should always be granted with the right to hope. Therefore, also in Westeros people like Theon and Jorah should have the right to hope to redeem themselves somehow, to hope to be socially useful again, to hope to have the possibility of not being sentenced to death. Their hope to a sort of redemption should not encounter limits, even if they committed horrible crimes that will never be forgotten and that have little chance of being forgiven by the victims.

[Nagini's Neville]

46 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Vic never seems to doubt it.

Well, than I believe it. He seems so ... bright LOL I really don't think it would have made a difference, if she was raped or not to him. He doesn't even recall, what she had to say about it, like it didn't matter at all, just what his hated, evil brother said, who seems totally trustworthy. He would have murdered her either way, because, he can't loose face and he can't murder his brother, because of Balon and his fear of the sea monster.

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(though didnt you say something similar about Tyrion...)

Tyrion being sexually abused by Tyrant um Tywin, does change a lot how I see his character. I definitely have a lot more empathy and compassion for him now, doesn't mean, that I forgive him for killing the singer, stepping on Marillion's hand, Sansa, killing Shae and raping the disturbed slave girl. He has definitely a serious dark side.

Also I was kind of there, when Theon raped Kyra, that makes it hard to forget.

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Or hysterically evil?

wait what? my speech is hysterically evil? mean much? 

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I will not. You are not an onion. Im sorry if im like crushing your dream or something

Yeah, she is. First at all, because I said so. And second of all, she can be anything, she wants to be! Who are you telling a woman, what she can and can not be?! LOL I will not stand for this! We'll need to fight once again. This time for L<3R's honor as  an onion. Just because she makes you cry, doesn't mean you have to fear her. Btw you are an onion too, whether you will it or no!!

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Arya & the Hound are the best. Not in a morally good way, of course but my favorite interactions. 

 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I've recently reread Arya's chapters with the Hound and I had totally forgotten, what a tremendous dick he is to her. He just didn't tell her for a couple of days, that he would not bring her back to KL. She was the whole time afraid, she'd die or whatever in KL and he just always told her to shut up, whenever she asked questions and when he finally did tell her, it was mainly to taunt her. 

"You think this is the Blackwater? Aren't you stupid..." Wanted to stick him with the pointy end. LOL

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Part of me wants SanSan to happen just so Sansa can be like "Aryas coming over for dinner" Sandor would be like, "not the little wolf bitch!" :insert laugh track here: it could be a sitcom on NBC

He'll just try to roll and bind her into a blanket again, when Sansa isn't looking

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, so could she have written? His mom totally lost it when Theon was taken from her. I feel like she would have done her best to see him. Although she didnt, so... Sad. Maybe Balon forbid it, maybe Ned never delivered them, who knows

Yeah could be. It is just sad. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

meant that writing to WF in itself would look soft, to say its not for Ned but Theon may come across as a ploy and the ironborn may think hes trying to curry favor with Ned

Ahh I gotcha. I misunderstood before.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

8 sounds good. He certainly lost his religion and forgot about wearing bought jewelry but the rest of the cultures pretty similar. Collect taxes from the weak and kill bandits and enemies

Yeah, I mean I think he probably remembers it but having not practiced it in some time I'd be willing to cut him some slack on his first go round with it. Balon was not cutting any slack though, he's rigid. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Or in his face like the first chapter of Thrones. When Theons dribbling the head like a soccer ball. Fucking horrible at first sight, but that could be him at any moment. So, to make light of his own impending execution, you know, I like dark humor lol. 

Oh for sure. Maybe that's why he smiles all the time - because if he doesn't he will cry. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

will not. You are not an onion. Im sorry if im like crushing your dream or something

 Ouch! Destroyed my dreams! 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They're priceless. Roaming Westeros like Dunk and Egg, except a little different lol. 

Part of me wants SanSan to happen just so Sansa can be like "Aryas coming over for dinner" Sandor would be like, "not the little wolf bitch!" :insert laugh track here: it could be a sitcom on NBC

Haha!! Yes. I seriously could watch an entire series of just Arya & the hound, provided it was done right. Even the abomination didn't screw that up. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, she is. First at all, because I said so. And second of all, she can be anything, she wants to be! Who are you telling a woman, what she can and can not be?! LOL I will not stand for this! We'll need to fight once again. This time for L<3R's honor as  an onion. Just because she makes you cry, doesn't mean you have to fear her. Btw you are an onion too, whether you will it or no!!

You tell him! Thankfully I have you to fight for my right to be an onion. Hugor is over here crushing my dreams & stuff. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I've recently reread Arya's chapters with the Hound and I had totally forgotten, what a tremendous dick he is to her. He just didn't tell her for a couple of days, that he would not bring her back to KL. She was the whole time afraid, she'd die or whatever in KL and he just always told her to shut up, whenever she asked questions and when he finally did tell her, it was mainly to taunt her

Oh yeah, he doesn't hold back with her at all. He should've figured out by now there is no breaking the she-wolves though. He's a total dick but you see him grow this grudging respect for her, much the same as with Sansa. They surprise him with their strength. There's a humor there also, a dark humor certainly but humor nonetheless. 

[Nagini's Neville]

49 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You tell him! Thankfully I have you to fight for my right to be an onion. Hugor is over here crushing my dreams & stuff. 

Onion-rights!!!

[Nagini's Neville]

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh yeah, he doesn't hold back with her at all. He should've figured out by now there is no breaking the she-wolves though. He's a total dick but you see him grow this grudging respect for her, much the same as with Sansa. They surprise him with their strength. There's a humor there also, a dark humor certainly but humor nonetheless. 

Yeah, felt so sorry for her. She must have been so afraid. But I think before Arya allows fear to come, she'll let the anger over-power it. it might be the same for the Hound actually.

He could have just told her in one sentence he would bring her to her family not back to Cersei, because how could she have known. For all she knew he was Joffrey's dog. But I guess he was also at a low point and is just generally an asshole- what can you do LOL.

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“You’re lying,” she said at once. “You don’t know half as much as you think you do. The Blackwater? Where in seven hells do you think we are? Where do you think we’re going?” The scorn in his voice made her hesitate. “Back to King’s Landing,” she said. “You’re bringing me to Joffrey and the queen.” That was wrong, she realized all of a sudden, just from the way he asked the questions. But she had to say something. “Stupid blind little wolf bitch.” His voice was rough and hard as an iron rasp. “Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother. I’m done with their city, done with their Kingsguard, done with Lannisters. What’s a dog to do with lions, I ask you?” He reached for his waterskin, took a long pull. As he wiped his mouth, he offered the skin to Arya and said, “The river was the Trident, girl. The Trident, not the Blackwater.

He is definitely way nicer to Sansa, than he is to Arya, but then no death threats for Arya, which is as a plus

I found it quite sad to read this time around actually, they both seem so depressed and broken. Wandering around not knowing where to go, like tow lost little children.  And of course after a while Arya gets used to him and trusts him more,and he teaches her the gift of mercy, but I feel like the moment he really starts to really respect her, he soon after already "dies". O

[Big P]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:05 AM, rotting sea cow said:

???

Last time I checked Sansa and Arya were still alive and relatively unharmed. 

And it's not like many other PoV and characters haven't suffered any injury, loss or trauma. Just check Theon,  Jon, Daenerys, Jaime, Tyrion, Davos, Quentyn, Sam or even peoplo like Victarion, Aeron and Cersei. 

These books are telling a tragedy. Few will come to the end alive and none unharmed.

This is a story in which bad things happen to people.  The Starks are actually treated better because they have only lost Eddard, Cat, and Robb.  Matter of fact, I find it unfair because they've not suffered as much as the Targaryens and the Darrys.  Even the Baratheons suffered more than the Starks.  

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Big P said:

This is a story in which bad things happen to people.  The Starks are actually treated better because they have only lost Eddard, Cat, and Robb.  Matter of fact, I find it unfair because they've not suffered as much as the Targaryens and the Darrys.  Even the Baratheons suffered more than the Starks.  

I'd say the Starks have suffered at least as much as those Houses.

[Julia H.]

Regarding Balon and Theon, I think Balon took out a lot of his frustration and hatred of the Starks on Theon when his son suddenly reappeared, which was totally unfair. Not being a good person, it would have been difficult for Balon to be a really good father, but he could have tried a little harder. Balon started a rebellion, which he lost. It cost him the lives of his elder sons and the loss of his only remaining son in a different way. When he gave up Theon to Robert and Ned, he didn't have much of a choice, but he could have said he would choose death for himself rather than giving up his son as a hostage. I understand why he didn't choose to do that - but none of this was Theon's fault, and Theon still remained his son, and Balon still had the responsibilities of a father. 

Therefore, yes, he could have tried to keep in touch with him, regardless of how many other people would have read their letters. And when his son unexpectedly returned home, he absolutely had the duty to, well, receive him with more warmth, I suppose, more in a way to make him feel at home as much as possible. Sure, Theon wouldn't be a 100% Ironborn any longer. He might be a total Northerner. At this point his reappearence might inconveniently interfere with Balon's already established plan of making his beloved and trusted Asha his heir. Balon may even have suspected some kind of deception behind the release of a hostage. I don't think Balon should have immediately declared Theon to be the heir to the Iron Islands, but he still owed it to his son to greet him as a son (who had grown up as a hostage to pay for Balon's life and lordship), at least until his son proved undeserving of such treatment. 

Instead, Balon's attitude to Theon was hostile and humiliating. It is as though Balon had blamed Theon for his defeat back then, as he would (I guess) have blamed every Stark (while he had no problem forming an alliance with Robert's father-in-law). Perhaps Balon was indeed trying to give Theon a chance, but not in an encouraging way, and his heart was not in it.

As for Theon, when his father revealed his intentions to him, he didn't have a better choice than his father had had before. He could have said "leave me out of this", but it was quite clear that he could easily find himself in a dark prison cell within minutes. Actually, I don't think Theon would have turned against the Ironborn even if he had been given a real choice (or at least not easily - for the right price, maybe). But he could have sat back if he had wanted, having only a low-key role in the war. No one ordered him to attack Winterfell. It is hard to decide what his real motivation was - posthumous revenge against Eddard Stark or the need to prove himself to be a worthy heir to Balon (worthier than Asha). I, personally, suspect the latter. In any case, while Theon absolutely had the right to side with the Ironborn and his own family in any conflict, on a personal level, attacking Winterfell was betrayal against Robb Stark, who had treated him as a friend and given him back his freedom. Eddard had regarded Theon as a hostage (although he had still allowed him to be friends with his son and heir), but Robb clearly regarded him as a friend and an ally, and when he sent Theon to the Iron Islands, Theon wasn't a hostage any more. Ironically, Robb had better plans for him than Balon had... It was Robb, not Balon, who had put an end to Theon's hostage status, and he did it for genuine trust and friendship. 

I agree with Lady Dustin, though, who said Theon's main problem with the Starks was that he couldn't be one of them. Much as he wanted to be Balon's heir, in the end, there was little more than this wish and hope that tied him to the Ironborn and his own family. But as "Prince of Winterfell", he practically destroyed everything that had been truly dear to him: He (indirectly) contributed to his best friend's death; he turned from former child hostage into a hostage-taker and child killer; he caused the deaths of people who had served him, cooked for him, told tales to him and taught him in his childhood; he had women who had been his lovers killed or abused; he caused the destruction of the castle where he had spent half his life, where he had lived, learnt, suffered and loved; and, ultimately, he destroyed Theon Greyjoy forever. 

I feel more pity towards him than loathing, but I'm not at all eager to reread his chapters. It's a very depressing story. 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Regarding Balon and Theon, I think Balon took out a lot of his frustration and hatred of the Starks on Theon when his son suddenly reappeared, which was totally unfair.

I disagree. Theon returned home an adult with his own agenda and expected to be lauded by everyone. He is even making plans to remove his father

Theon had given the matter no little thought. It was fighters he wanted, and men who would be loyal to him, not to his lord father or his uncles. He was playing the part of a dutiful young prince for the moment, while he waited for Lord Balon to reveal the fullness of his plans. If it turned out that he did not like those plans or his part in them, however, well . . .

We also know that he planned to marry his sister off to stop her from gaining power and did not visit his own mother once when back home.

Balon's not warm, but he does offer the inexperienced Theon the third most important position in the war, only behind his uncle and sister in the command of the invasion. Just because the wildly ambitious Theon did not like this, does not mean this was unfair or that Balon was taking his frustrations out on Theon by offering him such a position.

 

I also think it weird blaming Balon for how Theon turned out. Ned Stark was his guardian for 10 years, at best he shares the blame, at worst he is mostly responsible.

[Julia H.]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree. Theon returned home an adult with his own agenda and expected to be lauded by everyone. He is even making plans to remove his father

Theon had given the matter no little thought. It was fighters he wanted, and men who would be loyal to him, not to his lord father or his uncles. He was playing the part of a dutiful young prince for the moment, while he waited for Lord Balon to reveal the fullness of his plans. If it turned out that he did not like those plans or his part in them, however, well . . .

We also know that he planned to marry his sister off to stop her from gaining power and did not visit his own mother once when back home.

Balon's not warm, but he does offer the inexperienced Theon the third most important position in the war, only behind his uncle and sister in the command of the invasion. Just because the wildly ambitious Theon did not like this, does not mean this was unfair or that Balon was taking his frustrations out on Theon by offering him such a position.

 

I also think it weird blaming Balon for how Theon turned out. Ned Stark was his guardian for 10 years, at best he shares the blame, at worst he is mostly responsible.

That may all be true, and I still stand by what I said. I see no contradiction. But I never said Balon was taking out his frustration on Theon by offering him a position, or that his behaviour was unfair because Theon didn't like that position. It was the way Balon talked to him, berating him for not being Ironborn enough (how would he be?) when Theon becoming a stranger to his land and family had been the price for Balon's life and lordship (and Theon couldn't help it). Balon did not give Theon the welcome a son returning from captivity could hope for. It is not the position that Balon gave him, it is how that position was given. Theon indeed had been expecting too much (and, yes, he had his own agenda and ambitions), but not all his expectations had been unreasonable. Balon simply didn't make him feel he was loved or welcome as a son. If Balon somehow tried to express anything like that, it was all lost on Theon, and no wonder. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

That may all be true, and I still stand by what I said. I see no contradiction. But I never said Balon was taking out his frustration on Theon by offering him a position, or that his behaviour was unfair because Theon didn't like that position. It was the way Balon talked to him, berating him for not being Ironborn enough (how would he be?) when Theon becoming a stranger to his land and family had been the price for Balon's life and lordship (and Theon couldn't help it). Balon did not give Theon the welcome a son returning from captivity could hope for. It is not the position that Balon gave him, it is how that position was given. Theon indeed had been expecting too much (and, yes, he had his own agenda and ambitions), but not all his expectations had been unreasonable. Balon simply didn't make him feel he was loved or welcome as a son. If Balon somehow tried to express anything like that, it was all lost on Theon, and no wonder. 

I think you may be looking at the family dynamics between Lords and sons in the middles ages in the way you look at modern day father-son relationships. That kind of bond was not common in these relationships. The Crown does a superb job of highlighting how these kinds of families are and the coldness the ruler tends to have towards the other heirs of the family. Especially the members raised elsewhere. 

In the middle ages there are numerous examples of this, even when King and son grew up in the same Palace this was the case, as we see in with Henry VII and Henry VIII.

Balon and Theon are no more warm than we see Tywin to his children, Doran to his, Robert to his, Stannis to his daughter. Hoster certainly did not seem to show warmth to Lysa, nothing really suggest he was any better to Edmure and Cat. If we use Fire and Blood as an example the same can be seen through many rulers and their offspring, Jaehaerys especially. Dutiful relationships rather than outwardly loving.

Even Jon Snow does not speak about Ned like it was a particularly loving father-son relationship.

[Julia H.]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think you may be looking at the family dynamics between Lords and sons in the middles ages in the way you look at modern day father-son relationships. That kind of bond was not common in these relationships. The Crown does a superb job of highlighting how these kinds of families are and the coldness the ruler tends to have towards the other heirs of the family. Especially the members raised elsewhere. 

In the middle ages there are numerous examples of this, even when King and son grew up in the same Palace this was the case, as we see in with Henry VII and Henry VIII.

Balon and Theon are no more warm than we see Tywin to his children, Doran to his, Robert to his, Stannis to his daughter. Hoster certainly did not seem to show warmth to Lysa, nothing really suggest he was any better to Edmure and Cat. If we use Fire and Blood as an example the same can be seen through many rulers and their offspring, Jaehaerys especially. Dutiful relationships rather than outwardly loving.

Even Jon Snow does not speak about Ned like it was a particularly loving father-son relationship.

I still think it is unhealthy. I actually think that Tywin is another terrible father, but perhaps even he would have arranged at least some sort of ceremonial acknowledgement for the return of his only son (at least if the son in question is not Tyrion). Robert, Stannis, Hoster, all of those are problematic parent-child relationships. Even if Balon wasn't going to hug and kiss his returning son, he didn't need to start by telling him off for his clothes or for having befriended Robb Stark or for not knowing about the Ironborn ways. That's much worse than just merely being reserved and somewhat distant. Especially that he knew very well what was the reason why Theon was what he was.